[What Came Before]

As I noted earlier, the designation of cish sorcery as 'bearing water' is a carry over from the Kian tribe that took in Fane.  They were a tribe famed for bringing water to those in need in the deserts - already somewhat holy.

Given the ways that sorcery is 'translated' into the material world in Earwa, I think that the context of Fane's arcane teachings and their cultural meanings inform the way that the sorcery is manifested.

What I am trying to say here is that if someone independently discovered the same metaphysics that underpin the psukhe, the form of their sorcery would be visibly different because the various ways of exercising those powers are elaborations.  Similar to the differences between the anagogic schools, the Spires' trusty dragon heads, the Saik's fireballs and that new guy's use of totems with his cants of calling.

False Dawn hints that Titirga has some grasp on channeling the emotive aspects of meaning ala the psuhke (early blindness, different mark etc) but he doesn't have the same faith based grounding as the cish.

All the various sorcerers are clearly 'onto something' - I don't think any of them truly understand where their powers come from or why they work.

[What Came Before]

As I noted earlier, the designation of cish sorcery as 'bearing water' is a carry over from the Kian tribe that took in Fane.  They were a tribe famed for bringing water to those in need in the deserts - already somewhat holy.

Given the ways that sorcery is 'translated' into the material world in Earwa, I think that the context of Fane's arcane teachings and their cultural meanings inform the way that the sorcery is manifested.

What I am trying to say here is that if someone independently discovered the same metaphysics that underpin the psukhe, the form of their sorcery would be visibly different because the various ways of exercising those powers are elaborations.  Similar to the differences between the anagogic schools, the Spires' trusty dragon heads, the Saik's fireballs and that new guy's use of totems with his cants of calling.

False Dawn hints that Titirga has some grasp on channeling the emotive aspects of meaning ala the psuhke (early blindness, different mark etc) but he doesn't have the same faith based grounding as the cish.

All the various sorcerers are clearly 'onto something' - I don't think any of them truly understand where their powers come from or why they work.

Are you saying that if (and I realize it's a big "if") there was spontaneous revelation that it wouldn't be the psukhe exactly, but a slightly different new sorcery? 

We don't really seem to know all that much about the Cishaurim's culture.  We don't know to what degree the psukhe is taught compared to the way the gnosis and anagogis are clearly taught. 

Did Fane basically just start telling people to blind themselves and believe really hard and then you'll bear some Water too? 

Also, random question, but from what Madness quoted on when Iyokus sicks some Ciphrang on the Cish at Shimeh, does it not seem like the Cish handle them easily enough? 

It's said at some point earlier in the books that the practitioners of the Daimos secretly would wonder how it might hold up against the Gnosis.  It sort of sounds like it had about as much trouble against the Psukhe as it did the Gnosis.

[What Came Before]

Are you saying that if (and I realize it's a big "if") there was spontaneous revelation that it wouldn't be the psukhe exactly, but a slightly different new sorcery? 

We don't really seem to know all that much about the Cishaurim's culture.  We don't know to what degree the psukhe is taught compared to the way the gnosis and anagogis are clearly taught. 

Did Fane basically just start telling people to blind themselves and believe really hard and then you'll bear some Water too? 

To the initial question, I answer yes.

My inference is drawn from the entries in the Glossary about the Tribe that found Fane and gave him succour.  They were already known as the water bearers within the Kian culture because they went around dispensing water to the needy.  To the blinded and dehydrated Fane, it must have seemed like divine intervention.  (And maybe it was :p)

From the differences presented in the text and Kellhus' training scenes, I think it's safe to assume that the manifestion of sorcerous power is very much based on the cultural background and training of the practicioners.
While the basic metaphysics would be the same, there would be no reason to refer to the powers weilded as 'water' and this difference along with differences in the beliefs about the source of the powers and what they should and could be used for would change the way that the power was unleashed.

Of course Fane would have taught them about his revelations and beliefs - he used to be a priest, remember...  I think it simplistic to suggest that he was like, hey want some sweet powers?  Poke out your eyes and wish really hard. 

Nobody can simply choose what to believe - you should banish that notion.  People have to be convinced, and they must convince themselves.  Revelations come from rejecting one's current beliefs - just ask any born-again.  I think you can be critical and choose what not to believe, but I don't think it works the other way.

Anyway, I'm fairly sure you have to be blind and one of the Few to use the Psukhe.  I don't recall anything about it being based on belief, although it seems axiomatic that passionate religious beliefs would amp up the passions that seem to underpin its more destructive applications.

[What Came Before]

MMM

Moenghus
Maithanet
Meppa

Remember what Inrau told Achamian about Maithanet's name?  Is that not similar to Meppa's name?

Would not Moenghus have placed one of his sons in the Fanim Priesthood and one of his sons in the Inrithi Priesthood?

[What Came Before]

MMM
Remember what Inrau told Achamian about Maithanet's name?  Is that not similar to Meppa's name?

Would not Moenghus have placed one of his sons in the Fanim Priesthood and one of his sons in the Inrithi Priesthood?

What did Inrau say about Maithanet's name?



I still think it's weird, if I'm remembering correctly, that some cant or ward called the "Meppa Cataract" is mentioned in the first series, and I think it's a SS spell.  What the Hell does that mean?  It might mean nothing, but that would be strange.

[What Came Before]

Maithanet's name means something specific as this is the reason Shriah's take a new name - in this case, I bellieve, books not on hand, that his name means "to instruct" or "the lesson" ... it's in TDTCB when Inrau is telling Achamian about Maithanet and Achamian chastizes himself for not remembering that Shriah's take a Name.

Also, lockesnow... I bow.... That is an amazingly poetic theory. Meppa, second son of Moenghus, Fanim Priest !

[What Came Before]

“But Maithanet is more than you can understand,” Inrau was saying. The young man’s entire body seemed to flinch from the round-rushing air of the tavern. “Some almost worship him, though this angers him. He’s to be obeyed, not worshipped. That’s why he took his name—”

“His name?” It hadn’t occurred to Achamian that his name might mean something. This in itself disturbed him. It was a Shrial tradition to take a new name. How could such simple things slip past him?

“Yes,” Inrau replied. “From mai’tathana.”

Achamian was unfamiliar with the word. But before he could ask, lnrau continued his explanation, his tone defiant, as though the former student could only now, finally beyond the reach of the Mandate, vent old resentments. “Its meaning would be unknown to you. Mai’tathana is Thoti-Eännorean, the language of the Tusk. It means ‘instruction.’”

So what's the lesson?

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 87). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

As Triskele pointed out, Meppa is a word that has a water connotation, and it probably also has an ancient, religious implication.

In terms of Scifi/fantasy connections, could Meppa be the sign of a second foundation, Moe's hedge against the fall of Maithanet?

[What Came Before]

Let's game this out a bit. 

We know that Meppa has white hair.  It's not inconceivable that he somehow went white way early, but typically this implies he's pretty old.

Was Maithanet about 30 or so during the time of the first series?  If so, he's about 50 in WLW, and it seems pretty unlikely that Meppa would be older if he were another son of Moe.  So for this to be possible we probably have to believe he's gone all white-haired barely out of his 40's.  Not impossible, but not likely.

[What Came Before]

"'Tell me, Uncle Holy. How many children did grandfather sire?'

'Six,' the Shriah replied. There was a toneless brevity to the exchange now, as if they had shed the disguises they used when interacting with normal men.

'Were any of them like me?'

A fraction of a heartbeart.

'I have no way of knowing. He drowned them at the first sign of peculiarities.'

'And you were the only one that expressed... balance?'

'I was the only one'" (WLW, p407).

@ lockesnow, or second foundation in the sense of it being the original plan :shock: ?!

He could be older than Maithanet?

Are Heresiarch and Shriah the same religiously - obviously, one is a badass sorcerer, the other just sees the Few?

[What Came Before]

@ lockesnow, or second foundation in the sense of it being the original plan :shock: ?!

Exactly.


Also note: Drowning=water death.  Water is holy

Drowned?  or baptized?  What better way to deceive a half Dunayin like Inrilatus than to say Drowned but in the usage to not mean that they die, using the term Drowning would prime Inri to think they had died and so to not see deeper.  Hiding behind an inconsistency of language and a lack of understanding of the culture (and Inri's cultural assumptions of) of the Kian.

Imagine seeing the scene from Kellhus' perspective, "he flatters himself, feed his sense of specialness and you will blind him to the truth and control the movements of his soul."

Everything Maitha says in the passage you quoted flatters Inri's internal sense of specialness.

[What Came Before]

Holy shit. 

This all of the sudden seems more plausible.  Great catches on what Maitha says to Inralatus and what Kellhus had said about him. 

The only problem is the age thing.  We are led to believe that Moe fathered Maithanet pretty quickly on his whole thirty years in the world thing.  So while it's not impossible that Meppa-as-son-of-Moe is older than Maithanet, it's pretty much impossible that he's much older.

ETA:  I do think it's strange that there is a "Meppa Cataract" spell in the Anagogis.  There's a guy named Meppa, he's a Cish, and there's only one other mention of "Meppa" anywhere in the text. 

I think someone posited before that "Meppa" could be a place, and that's how both a spell and a person could be named after it.

[What Came Before]

uh, Kellhus didn't say that, I was just speculating how Kellhus would think about it.

Wouldn't it be great if 'drowning' were the name of the ceremony that made men into Cishaurim? 

Perhaps Maithanet was the reject, and thus was not brought into the priesthood?  but Moe didn't discard a useful tool and instead positioned him to control the Inrithi priesthood--what if Moe's plans had been to unify the faiths?

Or perhaps we should infer that Inri and Kelmo et al would all be sane if they had been drowned in the water at birth and raised as Cishaurim priests, totally pure in their faith, without even knowledge of identity sullying them?

[What Came Before]

haha loving this. Second foundation, I mean we've already got Adams and Herbert, hell why not Asimov. I'd dig that.

Words with double meanings to lie within truths, so easy to fool a truth-sayer, a very dunyain thing to do.

[What Came Before]

lockesnow - my bad.  I thought you were quoting Kellhus.  You got me excited there.

Let me ask a general question:  When I read WLW (and it feels the same way when I re-read it), I get this impression that Meppa is really important.  As in, more important than Fanayal is still alive and has a little backing and one Cishaurim with him. 

If you think of it in a chess piece analogy, it's not that big of a deal if you're trying to overthrow the whole empire if you get just one Cishaurim, even if he's a Primary.  If you were the Empire and it was like "all your sorcerers are dead or w/ the Great Ordeal, but you just learned Eli is back and with you," that wouldn't really change your situation that much.

This is why I can't stop wondering what is up with him, but we're given so little to play with in the material.  Does he represent some of Moe's designs?  Is he actually a sign/gift from the Solitary God?  Is he more powerful than any Cish we've previously seen? 

I guess ultimately I'm asking if this board feels the same as I do when they read WLW that Meppa has to mean something more than Fanayal simply has one Fanim sorcerer-priest with him.

[What Came Before]

I hope Meppa is more important than Fanayal... I think there is too little chance of his success after the Psatma scenes. Meppa is the only real mystery in the equation. I find myself hoping that Meppa is feigning loyalty to Fanayal due to some mutual goal as I find Fanayal kind of annoying. But then again if Meppa had amnesia perhaps he was sort of conditioned by Fanayal as to where his loyalty was.

I am definately of the opinion that Meppa is a place where both the amnesiac Cish was found and that the anagogic spell was named after. It just makes sense. Then again, it could just mean ocean or great body of water or some such in another language. 

I know on another thread that the consensus seemed to be that Cnaiur's arc was done due to Scott saying so in an interview (I couldn't find it but I tend to believe people around here as they can quote half the series from memory lol) but with such an ambiguous ending in TTT I think it would be an interesting to find it's Cnaiur twisted by the consult. Perhaps they even really took his memory from him... I mean, if the power of the Psuhke is dependent upon the passion within the Cish, who the fuck is more passionate than Cnaiur Urs Skiotha? We have no idea what the consult are truly capable of but we know that it includes glamours and stuff so don't come at me with that 'but he was butternut squash colored and Meppa is nut brown' or 'where are the swazond' stuff... haterz. LoL I kid, I kid. So does this constitute my first nerdanel?

p.s. I apologize if this post is senseless, if it's easily refutable by canon, or if it has been brought up before... I have been drinking entirely too much Crown Royal tonight lol.