[What Came Before]

Madness - Just a clarification. 

On an earlier page you referenced Aurang's reference to the Nonman leader of Ishterebinth.  You quoted it as Nil'giccas, but that's not what he said.  He referenced Nin'Ciljiras. 

But then in WLW someone w/ the Great Ordeal (I forget who) references Ishterebinth again and puts it back to Nil'giccas as if they wrongly believe he still leads there.

Since we know that NG as Cleric is certainly not there anymore by TJE, what does this all mean?

Since Aurang's quote is in either TWP or TTT does this not strongly imply that Cleric has not been leading Ishterebinth this whole time?  It feels that way to me.  But if that is the case it suggests to me that Cleric left the mansion totally on his own and only then could possibly have been found by Kellhus and placed with the Skin Eaters.  Kellhus wouldn't have traveled to Ishterebinth if he has at all until long after Aurang's quote about Nin-Ciljiras leading. 

The only other possibility I can think of is that Aurang's quote is somehow misleading.  It implies that Nin'Ciljiras is ruling there, but I suppose it doesn't prove it outright.

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You're completely right. Nin'Ciljiras is the leader Aurang references in TWP. It does imply that Nil'giccas has been wandering for a long time.

The Nonmen Emissary is actually the one who suggests that "Nil'giccas" sends his regards to the Ordeal.

[What Came Before]

The Nonmen Emissary is actually the one who suggests that "Nil'giccas" sends his regards to the Ordeal.

Hmmm...that seems like it means something, but I'm at a loss as to what. 

We assume that Kellhus knows about Cleric being w/ the Skin Eaters, but we don't know it for certain.  I think it's a safe assumption though. 

So why would the Nonman emissary give his regards from Nil-giccas if he no longer leads and hasn't for some time especially if Kellhus knows this?  Do the Nonmen not realize that Kellhus knows about where Nil-giccas is?  If so, is this some kind of formality or is it some kind of deception?

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Personally, I've been on the deception wagon until this most recent bender of ideas.

Kellhus must know about Cleric being Nil'giccas - there is no other conceivable way for the Captain to be Cleric's book otherwise. Kellhus would need to feed the Captain information about his Nonman companion.

If the Nonmen still retain their own agency, then perhaps it means that they don't intend to support the Ordeal in any way until the Humans honour the Niom and take Dagliash - they're waiting for Kellhus to show convince them he can win before siding against the Consult.

However, if the Consult rule, or even treat, openly in Ishterebinth, as Nil'giccas seems to suggest to Achamian in the Library, then the lie takes on a different character.

I really do assume that Kellhus knows that Cleric is Nil'giccas and he no longer resides in Ishterebinth.

Lol, thirdly, if a Dunyain rules in Ishterebinth... well, that is something else entirely.

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The end, I think, Wilshire, is that we can safely conclude that world domination, if only for control and exclusion of variables, is part of an eventual Dunyain plan based on the... generous readings of ambiguity we've done here?

Thought I'd verb some a little more adjective on these nouns.

So I've been thinking about the Dunyain, Consult, Kellhus triad and the quest for Ishual - one we undertake from Achamian's perspective.

The Consult have been hunting the Ancient North for twenty some odd years, searching for any word of the Dunyain. They've gotten pretty much the same intel as Cnaiur, Achamian, and the world got as of The Thousandfold Thought and the Compendium - excepting the Consult has full range in the North.

How long would it really take the Consult to find Ishual? This opens up into discussions of the relations between the Consult and the Nonmen? Are there boundaries?

I'm going to guess that in force, the Dunyain would do little more than surprise the Consult, even with the Thousand Thousand Halls.

Thoughts?

Thoughts:
I feel like hunting in the north for clues towards the Dunyain would be rather fruitless, after all, nobody really knew about the Dunyain and certainly none of those that did were left wandering the northern wastes, passing down tales of mysterious people in the mountains.
The forests with the most game would be in the south, where some hints and clues about the dunyain yet remain hidden. Perhaps they even went to the library. Why not?
There is always the Nonmen to be concerned with though. They knew that Nil' was rutting around in the south , but he's crazy anyway so no need to question him. Maybe there remained some information remained to be found in Ishterebinth, but this would go back to the foundations of the Dunyain, and whether it was in any way involved with the Dunyain.
In any case, Ishual was a rather well guarded secret, I don't know if the consult found out anything or not.

However, this doesn't mean the Consult didn't find the Dunyain. I think its very likely did. From a birds' eye view, a castle sitting between two mountains, big enough to rise above the forest landscape, wouldn't be so hard to spot. They didn't need to know what they were even looking for. The act of looking would have been good enough, even a needle in a hay stack could be found if you just remove each piece of hay one by one until the needle if found.


Now for the Dunyain and the Consult. I can't say. Sure if the Consult came in, guns blazing, swarms of sranc and bashrag, Quya and all that, then the Dunyain would lose a pitched battle. But nothing is so simple. There had to be contingency plans set in place.
An assault on a Dunyain controlled fortress would be devastating. The consult would pay dearly, and I remain unconvinced that all of them were slain. But I like the Dunyain so I'm leaning towards their survival.

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Inchoroi have a lot of experience fighting interior battles, having fought the Nonmen through the Ark for a couple hundred years - if they remember, that is.

Even in the darkness of the Thousand Thousand Halls, where the Dunyain have complete advantage, I think they would lose, without help or by wiles...

Also, the Consult know after TTT that the Demua mountain range is the go-to location for Ishual.

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Just to add, and I might be totally off on a tangent with this, but when we had finished the first trilogy, and were eagerly awaiting The Aspect Emperor, I seem to remember we had a few indications (hints from the author) that Achamian would meet a female Dunyain, who would travel with him in the far North.  If this is true, then perhaps Achamian is shortly to find her.  For mine, it is the Consult have destroyed Ishual; this is totally consistent with the Consult's search at the end of The Prince of Nothing; in addition, Kellhus had no percentage in confronting his Dunyain fellows, whom (we assume) only wanted to be left alone.  The Dunyain are peerless fighters, but against the Consult's numbers and sorcery they would have stood no chance (they should have stood a chance of course, by simply insisting that sorcery is impossible).  Maybe the Consult took a few Dunyain prisoners (these might prove to be far more deadly adversaries to the Ordeal than Shaeonnara).

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I think the female Dunyain is Serwa and not some survival from Ishual which means that Akka and Mimara will end up to Ishterebinth and meet her,and Sorweel,there.

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I think the female Dunyain is Serwa and not some survival from Ishual which means that Akka and Mimara will end up to Ishterebinth and meet her,and Sorweel,there.

Agreed. She is, after all, half Dunyain.

Inchoroi have a lot of experience fighting interior battles, having fought the Nonmen through the Ark for a couple hundred years - if they remember, that is.

If they remember... hmm. I'd have to say its something that I haven't really thought about before. The Nonmen, as its said, were not meant to be immortal and so went mad with the too many memories that their brains could not handle. What makes the Inchoroi immune to this effect? I suppose it can be explained away by the Tekne , but its still an interesting thought.

Also, I agree that they would lose, but surely a few could have escaped. Why not?
I guess sranc would be better than blood hounds so simply running away wouldnt work.

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Heh.

It's so obvious how badly all of us want to see more Dunyain. 

The more I think about it the more I'm leaning towards the Consult having destroyed Ishual than Kellhus.  The opening line of the book about how one cannot war against a secret is potentially very telling.  They've been looking since the Holy War, and they didn't have to look very far. 

Mimara tells Acka in WLW something like how Esmenet had told her that the only thing that scared the Consult more than Kellhus was the idea that there could be more like him.  They were obsessed with finding Ishual. 

I really hope that somehow we see more Dunyain whether there were a few survivors or whether it wasn't the Consult or what have you.

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That quote "the only thing they fear more than Kellhus is an army of him" or something along those lines, is one of the original reasons I thought the Consult destroyed Ishual. Still do, in fact.
I feel like Kell destroying Ishual sounds too much like hate for me to consider it without more information.

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Lol, I do remember the female Dunyain thing, anor. Popular theory used to be Moenghus' brood partner or... Kellhus' Mother... but I too think that Theo and Serwa satisfy the "female" Dunyain teasers.

However, the Dunyain remain a central aspect of this mystery - including the specific narrative lacing that Trisk and Wilshire are mentioning.

Whether historically or presently, they have answers... and we and Achamian will have them :evil: .

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Heh.

It's so obvious how badly all of us want to see more Dunyain. 

The more I think about it the more I'm leaning towards the Consult having destroyed Ishual than Kellhus.  The opening line of the book about how one cannot war against a secret is potentially very telling.  They've been looking since the Holy War, and they didn't have to look very far. 

Mimara tells Acka in WLW something like how Esmenet had told her that the only thing that scared the Consult more than Kellhus was the idea that there could be more like him.  They were obsessed with finding Ishual. 

I really hope that somehow we see more Dunyain whether there were a few survivors or whether it wasn't the Consult or what have you.

the quote is: "one cannot raise walls against what has been forgotten"

and Ishuals walls are no longer raised.

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And what about the timing of Seswatha's dream that led to the "not being forgotten" of Ishual's walls? Did Seswatha, as an almost self moving soul, wanted this to happen?

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Seswatha as a self moving soul? Not in the Dunyain sense I assure you. Kellhus might be have been "almost" self moving at one point, but the Dunyain are/were still years and years away from achieving their goal. I doubt that some random schoolman from before the first apocalypse was even sniffing at obtaining The Absolute.

As for timing of dreams and revealing Ishual, a good point. Will need further consideration.