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So you actually liked the characters?
I did, I'm not sure I can explain exactly why I liked/disliked these characters, but I'll try:
-Esmenet: From the very beginning, I found her to be quite likeable: she's a sympathetic character, she's clever, she's a survivor and always tries to make the most of her circumstances no matter what happens. And despite romantic relationships being far from something I tend to be invested on when reading (rather than the characters themselves), I liked hers and Achamian's, their whole dynamic and how she dealt with his worries about the Consult resurfacing (that "I was his morning" line gets me every time...). And in TAE, she's dealing with dire circumstances once more even if she's starting out in a position of power this time - I know some people think her POVs in TAE are boring, but I disagree. How can you not feel for her, having to deal with the collapse of the Empire and all of Kelmomas' machinations, her feelings over being overshadowed and overwhelmed by all the Dûnyain and half-Dûnyain in her extended family? It's no wonder she was unable to see anything was wrong with Kelmomas, she needed to believe he was a normal, loving boy so much just to have something to keep her sane in her increasingly insane life.
-Mimara: I think this is a character we're already supposed to feel some sympathy for going into TAE given her backstory. This was true for me, but I also found myself liking her as a character despite that. We get to see the contrast between her self-hatred, conflicting feelings for her mother and need to find something to define herself (via learning sorcery) and what she saw with the Judging Eye and how it affected the rest. And even if Bakker has said he deliberately picked specific character archetypes for his female characters (can't remember if it was just for PON, though), a female true prophet in this kind of setting is not something you'd expect, and is definitely a good addition.
-Serwë: I admit that, while I don't dislike her, her character is not among my favourites either. I feel sorry for what she's endured in her backstory. I feel sad for her for the way she dies after being manipulated by Kellhus. Yet that's pretty much all there is, unlike with Esmenet and Mimara. Serwë doesn't feel that interesting as a character. (Why does it work for some and not for others? Maybe it's just a matter of opinion, different people will like different characters.)
-Istriya: Should I even count her? It's likely that we never meet the real Istriya in the series, but then again, the skin-spy was (mostly) behaving like she would have. Here I think that the "archetype" doesn't really go beyond that, but that might be because the character, skin-spy or not, doesn't get the same prominence in PON that Esmenet and Serwë do.
-Theliopa: I actually have her name as part of my username, but when reading TJE, I didn't like her much - can't really explain why either. Then I started paying more attention to her appearances in TWLW and TGO (and what others thought of her), and realized she was not just an emotionless automation, there was more to her than that. Suddenly, I found myself really liking her, how she was the "Eärwa wiki" for Esmenet et al., how she put this insane amount of work in her gowns and didn't care about what fashion dictated, how she kept watching Kelmomas and figuring out what he was up to while he had no clue, how she had give ruthless advice to Esmenet regarding Naree because an Empress can't show weakness. And then there was that whole situation with Inrilatas that is revealed only after his death, and not only did she leave tracks on the snow, she possibly mentioned he could read Maithanet's face to Esmenet as a means to get him killed (granted, this might be highly speculative on my part, but I got that feeling after rereading TAE). By the time she died in TGO, I was quite sad over it, and hated Kelmomas so much for getting away with all of it.
-Serwa: (You know what? I have a small criticism to make - it's not (just) that Bakker doesn't have many important female characters in this series, but most of them are related to Esmenet. It would have been nice if he had introduced some others at some point.) Like what happened with Thelli, I didn't care much for Serwa at first. I tended to agree with Mimara's view of her as cold and arrogant, and thought she was sort of boring in the same way as Kayûtas - Anasûrimbor Lite (just with sorcery in her case). I had this same opinion throughout TJE, TWLW and TGO, and it was only TUC that made me think "maybe there's more depth to this character than I thought". With the help of a reread, I realized there was indeed more to her character (like Thelli...but in a different way in Serwa's case). (TUC spoilers:) There were genuine feelings there, even if faint and vestigial, romantic for Sorweel and familial affection for Kayûtas (it's more complicated in Moënghus' case). And she was fearless! Even before getting the qirri from Mimara, she went and fought the Horde despite being horribly burned, and kept going. Half-Dûnyain or not, that was impressive.
I'm not even going to go into any detail about Psatma Nannaferi, she, even more than Istriya, is practically an archetypal crone/mother character. Makes sense in the story, of course, but there's not much to add to that.
So I hope this comment made some sense. I might not be looking at these characters from a feminist perspective, but that was not the point anyway - this is how I feel about them, and at the end of the day these are just the opinions of one person. :)
Sorry if it's not too detailed either, I often have a hard time articulating even to myself why precisely do I like or dislike character X, most of the time it's sort of instinctive.
So I hope this comment made some sense. I might not be looking at these characters from a feminist perspective, but that was not the point anyway - this is how I feel about them, and at the end of the day these are just the opinions of one person. :)
Sorry if it's not too detailed either, I often have a hard time articulating even to myself why precisely do I like or dislike character X, most of the time it's sort of instinctive.
That was very helpful, thank you.
I'd kind of suspected that stuff about Serwa myself but I can't say why. Might have just been blind faith that Bakker wouldn't make a boring "Dunyain-lite" character. Still, didn't like her all that much initially until re-reading Aspect Emperor and the first time reading TGO. Now she's one of my favorites of this cycle. Unholy Consult Spoilers: Figures that she's probably dead. Bakker can't let us have nice things.
I'd never considered what you said about Thelli. Speculation sure, but I rather like the idea.
Edit: Slightly off topic, but is it just me or is it much easier to articulate why one dislikes something than why one would like it?
That was very helpful, thank you.
I'd kind of suspected that stuff about Serwa myself but I can't say why. Might have just been blind faith that Bakker wouldn't make a boring "Dunyain-lite" character. Still, didn't like her all that much initially until re-reading Aspect Emperor and the first time reading TGO. Now she's one of my favorites of this cycle. Unholy Consult Spoilers: Figures that she's probably dead. Bakker can't let us have nice things.
I'd never considered what you said about Thelli. Speculation sure, but I rather like the idea.
Edit: Slightly off topic, but is it just me or is it much easier to articulate why one dislikes something than why one would like it?
I'm glad I could get my point across clearly enough. :)
Well, the "Dûnyain-lite" characters might have their fans too. I think Bakker wanted to show how Kellhus and Esmenet's children were affected by the combination of their parents' traits, and it makes sense one or more would fall in the more stable side of the half-Dûnyain spectrum. With their variety of personalities, opinions will vary as well.
On Serwa: Sadly, I agree, I don't think she survived her injuries for long even if she was still (barely) alive by the end of TUC. Too bad, because I would have much preferred to have her around in TNG than Kayûtas (I'd actually prefer having both survive, but if I had to pick only one, it'd be Serwa).
We may never know for sure, but after rereading and seeing how upset Thelli was with the mention of her trauma at the hands of Inrilatas, it seems likely she could have planned for him to die. It's plausible she would figure that Maithanet confronting Inrilatas (with Kelmomas being there too) had a high enough chance to result in Inrilatas' death. Thus, revenge by proxy - there were even more tracks in the snow than Kelmomas considered...
It does seem easier to detail the reasons for disliking characters than for liking them. No idea why, though. There might be some scientific explanation for this, but I'm not aware of it.
Great post, ThoughtsofThelli! I feel alot of the same ways you do about the same characters.
ETA- had to correct where credit was due! Sorry, ToT. :)
Thanks. :)
Theliopa is actually a pretty cool character. I kind of identified with many of her quirks...
She is great, her quirks just make her a more rounded character (unlike that first impression I got when reading). I really wish she could have stuck around for more books, but such are the dangers of liking characters. :(
First time poster, long time lurker:
I'm a woman and I love the books, it was me (I? I'm not a native speaker, logically it should be "I" but that sounds so wrong?) who got my husband into the series not the other way around.
I can see where the question is coming from, a lot of stuff going on in the books would put off most of my female friends from reading it plus the sometimes "dry" philosophical parts... yes, probably not as many female readers as male ones.
But I honestly don't think the books are really that misogynistic, it's a medieval, patriarchal world with it's inhabitants behaving accordingly.
The women themselves are written quite well, they feel real and are quite different from each other, not like in WoT where I wished death and disease on every single female character by book 4 because they were mostly just annoying clones.
First of all, welcome! :)
I feel much the same, you can have series with a more misogynistic setting such as this and still have compelling female characters that manage to have their own arcs and a fair amount of agency (well, as much as their particular circumstances allow).
I only managed to read through 3 books of WoT before I had to stop, those were definitely characters I could not care about either (it probably got worse later on, but that series wasn't working for me anyway).
First time poster, long time lurker:
I'm a woman and I love the books, it was me (I? I'm not a native speaker, logically it should be "I" but that sounds so wrong?)
"I" would be technically proper English but the English language in many places is changing such that it can sound stilted and stuck-up to use it that way. "Me" would sound more natural to most of us.
I can see where the question is coming from, a lot of stuff going on in the books would put off most of my female friends from reading it plus the sometimes "dry" philosophical parts... yes, probably not as many female readers as male ones.
But I honestly don't think the books are really that misogynistic, it's a medieval, patriarchal world with it's inhabitants behaving accordingly.
The women themselves are written quite well, they feel real and are quite different from each other, not like in WoT where I wished death and disease on every single female character by book 4 because they were mostly just annoying clones.
So you don't feel that the emotional core of the characters is kind of missing or anything like that? These are criticisms I've seen and didn't personally understand but then it is a matter of perspective I suppose.
Wheel of Time's female characters...ugh. One horrible petty abusive person in 500 bodies. I feel sorry for James Rigney if that was his experience with people.
I'm glad I could get my point across clearly enough. :)
Well, the "Dûnyain-lite" characters might have their fans too. I think Bakker wanted to show how Kellhus and Esmenet's children were affected by the combination of their parents' traits, and it makes sense one or more would fall in the more stable side of the half-Dûnyain spectrum. With their variety of personalities, opinions will vary as well.
On Serwa: Sadly, I agree, I don't think she survived her injuries for long even if she was still (barely) alive by the end of TUC. Too bad, because I would have much preferred to have her around in TNG than Kayûtas (I'd actually prefer having both survive, but if I had to pick only one, it'd be Serwa).
I even liked her and Sorweel together. Naturally I didn't expect that to last long. People aren't allowed to be happy here. But it ended much more abruptly than I thought.
I'd love more Serwa but if she is dead she has had an excellent end so not sure how I'd feel about her miraculously surviving. Though even then it might not be without consequences, which would make it worthwhile to continue with her I think. She's horribly maimed physically and perhaps psychologically, which might make Moenghus' claim that she was afraid she'd changed too much for the Metagnosis to work the same after Ishterebinth was foreshadowing.
This is getting into territory that's probably better for another thread.
We may never know for sure, but after rereading and seeing how upset Thelli was with the mention of her trauma at the hands of Inrilatas, it seems likely she could have planned for him to die. It's plausible she would figure that Maithanet confronting Inrilatas (with Kelmomas being there too) had a high enough chance to result in Inrilatas' death. Thus, revenge by proxy - there were even more tracks in the snow than Kelmomas considered...
Sounds very plausible. I quite liked the revelation that she wasn't just a computer as Esmi seemed to think. Her lack of affect was mostly just a matter of appearance. Although it seems to have fooled even her siblings, except for Inrilatas.
I even liked her and Sorweel together. Naturally I didn't expect that to last long. People aren't allowed to be happy here. But it ended much more abruptly than I thought.
I'd love more Serwa but if she is dead she has had an excellent end so not sure how I'd feel about her miraculously surviving. Though even then it might not be without consequences, which would make it worthwhile to continue with her I think. She's horribly maimed physically and perhaps psychologically, which might make Moenghus' claim that she was afraid she'd changed too much for the Metagnosis to work the same after Ishterebinth was foreshadowing.
This is getting into territory that's probably better for another thread.
I also found myself somewhat rooting for Sorweel and Serwa to find a way to stay together and develop some sort of stable romantic relationship in the future (or as stable as possible given their characters and circumstances). It could have been interesting, but it was not meant to be.
She did have a fitting end, but it's also that we barely have any previously developed characters in TNG (especially when comparing the transition from PON to TAE with the one from TAE to TNG). So it would be good to have her around too, but yes, might be unlikely.
I might end up taking some of these thoughts to a new Serwa thread in the TUC subforum if something more occurs to me lately, for now, I feel like what I've said/want to say has been partially discusses in the "Survivors" thread already.
Sounds very plausible. I quite liked the revelation that she wasn't just a computer as Esmi seemed to think. Her lack of affect was mostly just a matter of appearance. Although it seems to have fooled even her siblings, except for Inrilatas.
It was a good reveal, it gave more depth to her character and to her relationship with several other characters.
While Kelmomas seems to have been definitely fooled (even if he figured it out eventually), I'd think that Kayûtas and Serwa were aware of Thelli's hidden depths (after all, from what both of them say in TGO and TUC, it seems they - and Moënghus - were fairly close when younger).