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Messages - Heavenfall

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I believe Kellhus planned to wage a war against the Outside because that is what he tells us. As long as there was an Outside he and everyone around him would never be masters of their own fate. They would never reach the Absolute, the ultimate goal of the Dunyadin, which was defined as having no "darkness that comes before". As long as there's a bunch of gods running around the humans are just playthings. Not only was the No-god a physical threat to his plan (it would conquer the world) but it was an abstract one as well since it planned to "shut the world" from the Outside. This directly contradicted Kellhus' plan of destroying the Outside.

Once the nuke had gone off and he began to speculate on whether the Mutilated existed, I believe he quickly reached a dead-end in his thousandfold thought. Planning against one or several Dunyadin was simply beyond him. He also admits to not knowing the Arc or the Tekne. That's why he asks a lot of questions from the Mutilated, to understand their goals and tools. So while the Mutilated are trying to recruit him, he's finding out their goals and they are incompatible with his own because they do not have any designs beyond the physical world. Kellhus through the Gnosis believes the Absolute lies in the Outside (the god in him later claims to be the Absolute, it is possible that the Absolute = godhood).

His plan going into Golgotterath never changed much, he brought every resource the half-world could bear to help him fight. His goal was to overcome any threat against his path to the Absolute. The fact that he learned more and more about those threats did not change his goal or much alter his plans to get there.

Ajokli was going to fight everything that Kellhus couldn't. Aurang, for example, is defeated by cheating the laws of physics. The one hundred skinspies with chorae are as nothing before Ajokli.

As for Kelmomas, I believe the simplest explanation is the most likely. Upon becoming possessed by Ajokli, Kellhus mostly lost the ability to perceive Kelmomas and calculate what part he would play. He failed to foresee Kelmomas as a threat against any god. Although Kellhus absolutely retains the ability to read Kelmomas' face as seen after Kel kills Serwal, Kellhus reading of Kel back in the palace is fairly haunting. Kellhus tells Esmenet that Kel is the most damaged out of all their children. This is effectively Ajokli speaking through Kellhus, I think. Kelmomas is just a huge itch that they can't quite figure out together because of Ajokli. Kellhus is literally incapable of making the decision to kill Kel (he rationalizes this to "because I love Esme", which he never ever fucking did), nor can he see that Kel is in any way significant even after Kel saved him from the White Luck Warrior and Serwal.

So to sum it up, Kellhus planned to overcome any threat in Golgotterath. Knowing his foe had many legendary monsters and several great unknowns he brought every force he could, including Ajokli. Ajokli was able to overcome any enemy except Kel. Ajokli and Kellhus got fucked up.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nitpicks...
« on: July 15, 2017, 09:45:58 am »
I've had the 'not Akka's baby' thought a couple of times.  Imhailas seems like the obvious other possibility.

Amusingly enough, Mimara thinks that Akka was really the only option as to the father of her unborn children was after she first learned she was pregnant. However, I went back and looked - in TJE Mimara is said to have left the Andiamine Heights three months before meeting up with Akka. Which means that the dates would match for a normal 9-month pregnancy if Imhailas was the father. :)

Now we're cooking! But why do you think specifically Imhailas? I can't remember any interaction between them.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nitpicks...
« on: July 14, 2017, 04:07:26 pm »
Someone does, I thought it was Achiaman. Also even though Mimara was sold to pimps at an early age and has some specific knowledge in certain areas, is it possible that she just got the time of impregnation wrong?




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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] The Survivors
« on: July 13, 2017, 09:15:39 am »
She was blasted by Heron Spear v.2 before, Mimara doesn't know the difference. From the scene where Serwa fell it sounded like the roof collapsing in on her. She probably teleported away and fainted from exhaustion. Otherwise how could they possibly have gotten to her body so fast? Skulthul was still alive and kicking as far as I could tell.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: After this...[TUC SPOILERS]
« on: July 12, 2017, 01:16:33 pm »
I loved the world-building and the individual journeys that everyone other-than-Kellhus were on, but at the same time it still annoys me that they were not important at all. The Prince of Nothing series at least had an incredible solution where all strands of story were collected and unified to form a truly awesome moment. As much as insignificant main characters can have their own pivotal moments I still expect them to matter to the larger story.

In a way I'm reminded of the movie "No country for old men" where the story arcs are purposefully disjointed at the end (the veteran cop never finds the bad guy). But there we have an almost fourth-wall-breaking moment where one character grudgingly admits to just being confused and feeling disconnected from the world at large. It becomes a commentary on how the world doesn't necessarily adapt to the evolution of the story. I didn't get that feeling here.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: After this...[TUC SPOILERS]
« on: July 12, 2017, 12:24:11 pm »
I'd go a step further and say the entire Mimara/Achiaman arc, no matter how interesting and well-crafted, added nothing to the events that took place at Golgotterath or The Great Ordeal. They didn't find the Heron Spear, Achiaman never found any significance to his altered dreams (maybe we will in re-reads), he doesn't give any valuable information to Kellhus ("btw, your grandson from Ishual is alive"). They did find out that Ishûal had been conquered but Kellhus already knew that. Mimara never sees Kellhus with the Judging Eye. Her baby is born, it has a stillborn twin, and "all prophecies must be respected", but it dead-ends after the baby is born.The tiniest bit of measurable impact was that the Witch daughter stole their cocaine after getting blasted with the Heron Spear v.2, and she used that to fight the wracu in the Intrinsic Gate but that too never lead anywhere (except work as a reason why Kellhus was alone?).

Kelmomas/Esmenet at least had an impact, and I'm far more looking forward to re-reading their chapters.

I'm getting the sinking feeling that there is a lot of set-up for the next series. Kauytas, Crabicus, Mimara's child, witch-daughter-that-I-can't-name are basically the next book's POVs I think. Not that there's anything wrong with building on this series, but it does mean that we spent a lot of time reading about things that ultimately had almost no significance to the second apocalypse.

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My current theory is that Outside Kellhus conditioned the ground to get mortal Kellhus salted to complete the paradox.  Kellhus is still seen speaking with a voice he doesnt know so that's at lease one agency unaccounted since he'd know Ajokli.  So Kellhus was tricked by his future self because he obviously would have no reason to believe a voice telling him to salt himself.  I just believe that if we assume Kellhus is a Ciphrang, which seems a safe bet, that it's axiomatic for him to start doing what he does in the Outside since... that's what he does and he can't *NOT* do it.  Now he can do it in a place where time doesn't exist and he'd actually be a Ciphrang or even God since the first page of the first book.

I'm loving this idea. At the end of TUC he says he is the Absolute. As far as I can tell, being the Absolute means you have no darkness that comes before to rule you. The only way that seems achievable is to be a god capable of acting throughout time. Kellhus wanted to attain the Absolute, and did so (in his mind), and that essentially means he became his own darkness that comes before. It's a pretty huge mindfuck to have Kellhus' "nemesis/benefactor" throughout the series be himself after he has reached the Absolute. I'm not sure what it means for the next series though, is Outside-Kellhus going to give a damn about the world being shut? Hasn't he already reached his final goal?


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My bet is it'll be a combined effort but Kelmomas will ultimately tip the scales in the most significant way. I believe his single purpose in life (Esmenet) will somehow halt or confuse the No-god at a crucial point. Say, when he's about to have a duel with Achiaman but Esmenet throws herself in between.

The fact that Kelmomas has two souls in him likely creates a situation where he has some degree of control over the No-god intermittently. Someone told Kelmomas he doesn't even realize that his two parts are constantly changing places. The No-god at this point appears to be just a soul-crucible-construct, an ethereal machine. And no matter how powerful the programming, the Dunyadin-Anasurimbor in it will subvert it eventually.

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I don't think you have to be invisible to the Gods to activate the No-God.
The first time it happened because they put Nau-Cayuti in It (or so it seems) so maybe you just have to be very powerful or special (Nau-Cayuti infiltrated the Ark, killed a Dragon, he was a certified badass).

I think people are saying it's the other way around. He would eventually become the No-god and therefore through some kind of time paradox he was *always* invisible to the gods, backwards in time as well. Basically it was his destiny.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] TUC Errata
« on: July 10, 2017, 07:36:46 pm »
(click to show/hide)

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] The Thousandfold Thought
« on: July 10, 2017, 07:24:51 pm »
(click to show/hide)

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Yeah, not the way that they intended (plan was for Kellhus to either die to Aurang/The Spearman outside or be converted by the Inverse Fire), but they ultimately got what they wanted (No-God operational, no one left to interfere with their pursuit of the Absolute).

It seems they had a whole line of attempts to stop/capture/convert him. In the broader sense every attempt to stop the Ordeal was also an attempt to stop him. They tried to kill him several times over, from chasing over rooftops to nuking him. But more specifically, there's Aurang, The Spearman, Aurax+Inverse Fire, the Mutilated selling their scheme, the hundred skinspies with their Chorae and finally the succeeding agent Kelmomas to counter when Kellhus went into GODMODE. In the end, he did walk upon conditioned ground and it was not his own. Really, there could be any number of further traps ahead that we never even got to see - the Mutilated casting magic, for one. Yes, Kellhus studied the Gnosis for 20 years and they didn't, but there's 5 of them. Or how about calling up a couple of dragons?

I think they wanted Kellhus in the No-god, otherwise they could have just boxed Kelmomas the moment they captured him. I think having Kelmomas in the No-god will turn out to be a mistake in the next series, doubly so if Esmenet (his raison d'être) is still alive. I do not feel that his "two souls" ever got a reasonable use. That is, if we assume that the reason the gods could not see him was because he would become the No-god, rather than not seeing him because of his two souls. I personally prefer the no-god explanation since there must be any number of people with multiple personalities running around.

Edit: Also, thinking about it... Kellhus quite literally gave up two of his children (one fake, one real) to the non-men as part of the bargain. That could have been the Dunyadin-consult, and they could easily just have put her in the box instead. What if rather than the madhouse Insterberinth was, they had put 1-2 mutilated there. No, they absolutely wanted to try to get Kellhus in the box for some reason, even if any of his kids would do. And that reason was important enough that they were willing to risk everything.

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Achiaman does look upon Kellhus before the mirage disappears and he sees no mark at all. Before the Judging Eye sees the scarab-like sarcophagus. That would indicate that it was always the No-god and not some quantum state.

Or Kellhus was truly redeemed (in the alternative universe) for having destroyed the Consult - by power of the god that possessed him, perhaps a part of their deal. And then "collapsed" into the No-god because of the Judging Eye. But that seems increasingly far-fetched imho.

What it seems like is the No-god used the illusion to bring everyone closer before he killed them. Only moments later he shows tactical acumen when using the tears of god against the few remaining schoolmen. The only bad fit about this that I can think of is that Achiaman's and Mimara's journey literally meant nothing in the grander scheme of things.

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There was a scene where a child attacks a resting scylvendi, stabs him to death in a tent. The scene ends with a female-looking skinspider dealing the final blow to the man with her man-like hands, and then bids the child come with her. At first I thought this was Kelmomas, but now I'm not so sure that it wasn't the crab-hand child without a name.

I guess it being Kelmomas makes more sense because he had to go from being chained in a tent to the Dunyadin-Consult's Golden Hall where the Mutilated would want him to kill Kellhus if they failed to convince him (a wild run-on sentence appears!). But if the Mutilated had captured Kelmomas, why didn't they just box him right away to re-create the No-god? At the center of their power with a hundred tears of god and the No-god to back them up, not even Kellhus and whatever possessed him would stand a chance. Not to mention it would pretty much instantly demoralize/sap the strength of the Great Ordeal. Or am I to assume that they captured the boy but he was able to escape and play with them the same way he did back in the palace? Of that, at least, there was no indication. Maybe the Mutilated really needed the Judging Eye to birth the eventuality of the No-god.

But it being the crab-clawed child also fits since last we saw him he was in the Scylvendi camp running for his life. Arguably he wouldn't just kill someone without reason, but maybe he just needed food and was making it look like someone else settled a grudge. But why would the child go with the skinspider? Some mad dash at hope because he knew the "BAD" consult that had killed his people had captured some of them?

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