That's not how it works.  The Gnosis, Anagogic Sorcery, and the Psukhe are different mechanisms of enacting sorcery.  The Metagnosis is an application of the Gnosis using two inutterals instead of one, thus having three reference points to buttress the meaning and precision of the Cants, meaning they are more powerful and a wider array of possible acts because of the existence of the third reference point.

This part is correct, yes, and basically what I think I said.

The Daimos is the practice of applying that sorcery to the Outside and its inhabitants.  Just like the Cants of Compulsion or Wards are worked differently when they are Abstractions rather than Analogies, but both produce similar effects.  The Cants of Compulsion also work on a unique metaphysical principle and make a hash of free will but they are still parts of their respected branches. The Daimos is the same, a type of applied sorcery not separate type of sorcery itself.  Since it deals with the Outside and damnation, its a branch most Schools don't even try to develop but the Scarlet Spires didn't let that stop them.  That's why the Scarlet Spires could develop it, because it is possible to develop using Anagogic Sorcery, and Kellhus is able to adapt that knowledge to the Gnosis.

There's a post somewhere in Three Seas where Bakker discusses it.

If there is additional language, I'd love to see it. But as described, it is poorly outlined that it isn't a different branch in the books. If the glossary is calling it 'the sorcery of' then it very much seems a different principal, especially when described as such.

Even more-so when we have something called Daimotic cants. Other examples of similar language are the Agonies being called the Gnostic cants of Torment. The Dragonhead and Houlari Twin-Tempests are called Anagogic cants. Under the Cants of Calling it specifies there are Anagogic and Gnostic cants of calling. Yet we have the Daimos saying it has Daimotic cants, and the Inversions call them Daimotic cants.

Further, it has rather unique applications of summoning (which we've never seen applied to anything else, besides arguably teleportation, but the act works different and is never compared) and we're never actually shown Kellhus using the Daimos differently than anyone else.

[EDIT Madness: Quote tag.]

It's important to keep clear that the Daimos isn't a kind of sorcery like Anagogic or Gnostic, it's an application of Sorcery, like the Cants of Compulsion or War-Cants.  It's rarity is in part due to the fact that to work the Daimos is to embrace your own damnation, which is something most sorcerers are loath to do and why the far reaching and daring Scarlet Spires are the ones to developed it.  Kellhus has then taken their work and pushed it ahead armed with his extraordinary intellect and the Metagnosis.

Could one not consider it a kind of sorcery like those two? Just based on how the glossary describes the magics.
Anagogis - A branch of sorcery.
Gnosis - The branch of sorcery once practiced by the Gnostic Schools of the Ancient North.
Aporos - Described as a lost branch of sorcery.
Psûkhe - The arcane practice of the Cishaurim, much like sorcery, but cruder in its exercise.
Daimos - The sorcery of summoning and enslaving agencies of the Outside. (And also, apparently, visiting it, per Inversions.)

If anything seems not a branch itself, I'd think it is Metagnosis, which is described as a complication of the Gnosis rather than a different practice. The Inversions are even outlined as 'Daimotic Cants'. It even runs on a unique metaphysical principle. The Psûkhe uses passion, the Aporos is paradoxical (if I remember correctly Bakker's comments), the Anagogis is analogies, the Gnosis is abstractions, and the Daimos is to abuse the fact of souls all inhabiting one space with speech taking control of that (The Outside) right next to the physical world.

Sorry for double-post, can't edit.

Also, the Head on a pole scene would explain why he is viewed as a companion to the Gods. Yes, I say that Ajokli being Kellhus is much more likely than Cnauir and even have some textual evidence it could be the case. Its just hard to square the last bit where he is looking for Kellhus and can't find him. Unless that is, they are one and the same and Ajokli can't comprehend how that is. Its why he can't find him.

I was about to say, I have a hard time squaring either of them being Ajokli unless they would somehow both be him. His reputation has him being too tricky for me to think him just Cnauir and his appearance/possessing Cnauir and other titles make him seem too angry/emotional/greedy to be just Kellhus. But both? I could maybe see it then.

The main catch I have with Kellhus is still the weird temporal stuff as well. The fact that Kellhus seemingly encountered Ajokli prior to TUC, then was possessed in TUC, then Ajokli was banished, Kellhus died, then also become eternal Ajokli. Just seems strange than say Kelmomas who seemingly follows a more understandable temporal loop of always being the NoGod. This is less me arguing this as a roadblock, more just the fact that I hate time stuff in most settings.

It remains possible. I believe Bakker mentioned something about it before, but I can't recall. But the entire aspect of Oblivion, the God of Gods, and the Absolute still seem like the true calling of the Dunyain as part of their obtainable goal.

That said, I mentioned it in the other thread, if anyone could figure out another solution, it'd be Kellhus. Why settle for Oblivion if he could find another solution? Think of what we can intuit from other situations.
- We know soul trapping is a thing.
- Shae did it for a long time, it worked with the Amaloeus (SP - the Nonmen translating helmet), and arguably Seswatha managed.
- And Kellhus seemingly walked the Outside, whether or not he struck deals with them, having studied the Daimos.

It seems hard for me to believe he couldn't have managed something to stick around somehow to help.

I'm clearly in the minority but again I think Ajokli, not Kellhus, had to strike "pacts with the Pit."

Eh, I think that's possible, but it doesn't fit for me on a few levels. The first being that a god like Ajokli wouldn't necessarily need to make pacts with hell being that he is a god. Though, that's obviously much more at question given we don't know the precise nature of the outside realms and those who rule them. But I would think he would have his own realm.

But that aside, his discussion of the pacts is followed closely by 'which is why they needed me, inverse prophet, etc.' Would make me think he at least was speaking as himself still.

Quote from: MSJ on September 25, 2017, 08:26:56 pm

This is all fine and dandy. But, what will Kellhus do trapped in the head of Malowebi, laying on the floor of the Golden Room? Is the demon Malowebi, who was instructed to return to Kellhus when through with the Zeumi, is on his way back to his Master? How does he get into the GR? Or, will they (CONSULT) simply discard the salted remains of Kellhus? It can work if demon Malowebi makes it back to Kellhus, though.

To be clear, I don't think Kellhus is trapped in Malo's head.  Or at least, I didn't until you mentioned it... ;-)

All joking aside, "dead but not done" is more about Kellhus' plans surviving his death.  Not saying he had it all figured out.  But I think that several of his machinations (Akka/Mimara, for example), have yet to show their true purpose.

I mean, this is Kellhus we're talking about here. He actually travelled to the hells and struck deals with a god. If anyone is going to be able to say 'death is just a setback', then it'd be him.

That's the conundrum. There's no reason for them to lie, but then Bakker sows questions about the fate of Shaeönanra. It's hard to imagine Shaeönanra duping the Mutilated when (some of) his faculties are supposed to be burning in Hell, so it seems we're left with either a willing possession or none at all.

Eh, I think a kind of back end unwilling possession is certainly in the realm of possibility. Dunyain makes mistakes, it seems especially where magic is concerned. Kellhus' father blinded himself pursuing making and ended up with the worst deal. Kellhus was possessed by a god. Perhaps The Mutilated, from their weak spirits and low passions, were the victim of some soul magic.

At this point, that seems more likely to me than lying.

@Sausuna, oh ho ho, we know that the what comes before and the glossaries have untruths in them definitely, per Bakker. That this is how history was recorded, with mistakes and personal opinions and not facts all the time.

Anyhow, SL and Sausuna we are at an impasse as they say. And, that's fine. Its ok, we don't believe the same thing. I was just trying to persuade you actual evidence from the books is all. No, biggie.

Certainly, I think that just highlights my point. Given we know two things.
- The Dreams can be wrong, per Akka, if not necessarily by his comments from TTT, at least by his ones in TJE where he talks about books full of variations/corruptions/etc.
- Historic accounts (like WCB and the Glossary) can be wrong, per Bakker.
Just leads back to there being enough doubt for me to be unsure which is necessarily true. But agree to disagree, my textual evidence is apparently equally uncompelling.

I imagine at least something of the nature of Akka's dreams will come to light in the next couple books given his RAFO comments.

Quote from:  Sausuna

As I noted, I don't own TTT for review. But the way I took it when I read it, he kept saying it was wrong because it didn't happen that way, typically. Unless you can give me the specific language of the scene again.

Sorry, sir. I won't ignore an honest question. He says just that that this isn't how it happens, it's different and so on. Here's where me and you are not in agreement. You think it as proof as to the untruth of the dream. I take as proof to the truth of the dream, that this is one of Akka's new dreams, ones that Akka only gets. Its just not til a while later he realizes how.much his dreams has changed. As I said before, I think his first dream from TCTCB, where he says, "My face in the mirror, not S." is a subtle hint that his dreams are changing as the world around him is beginning to change, he just doesn't even have a clue at this point. He doesn't even know about the SS's yet. Chalks it up to another of the slight differences in the dreams.

I think this got off track before, but I want to reiterate my stance from my first post on the matter.
 
"I'm not necessarily in agreement that what he saw was the true sequence of events. I'll say it is possible. And it is possible something else resulted in the No-God's death as well. But I don't think there is enough to give it a lot of weight yet."

I'm not saying his 'this is wrong' comments are proof the dream is wrong. Merely that it raises doubt that it must be true. And what I touched on before above. We have conflicting information from two sources that are both told to explicitly sometimes be wrong/differing at times. He never questions the veracity of future dreams and none of his other dreams contradict history or contradict prior dreams in this manner as far as I recall. But not only does history work towards one sequence of events, the 'this isn't how it happened' comments would also imply it.

So again, this could be the tipping point. It could be a corrupted, post-fever dream. It could be a combination of these things.