The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:01:43 pm
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Who dat Meppa guy? Speculate. Pretend you have proof.
100 cool points for whomever is proved correct if he turns out to have been someone previously named in the texts.
I'll go with the crazy powerful guy (whatshisnameagain?) who faced off with Aurang and Shauritas in the False Dawn.
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Titirga? Man, that guy was only in one short story, and he's already one of the more badass characters in the series.
If I've got to guess somebody we've already seen as being Meppa I'm going with that one random kid. You know, that kid trying to gather salt from the remains of sorcerers after the final battle. Why draw our attention to him?
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Who dat Meppa guy? Speculate. Pretend you have proof.
100 cool points for whomever is proved correct if he turns out to have been someone previously named in the texts.
I'll go with the crazy powerful guy (whatshisnameagain?) who faced off with Aurang and Shauritas in the False Dawn.
I think I crackpotted that as well. :D
I do think Tirtirga survived, and plotted the creation of an ascetic philosophical cult later known as the Dunyain...
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Oh you guys, Nerdaneling away.
I'm always for my Meppa is either Moenghus the Elder or one of Moenghus' sect of Cishaurim, neuropunctured into some Metapsuhkari.
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Meppa is one of Big Moe's Cish. I don't think it's anything more than that. If he was Big Moe himself, he'd have the Scylvendi scars.
He's likely there to kill Fayanal at the right moment.
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yeah I don't think Meppa is Moe unless Moe has figured out how to transfer his soul to a new body.
Crackpot: Meppa is a skin spy, but Moe has wrested control of the body and transferred his soul into it in order to survive death.
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new crackpot: Meppa is Inrau, he had a Fane-like Conversion after surviving the fall and journeying through the desert. Maithanet converted him, actually, using some dunyain trickery (and also faked his death).
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That is impossible, but the best crackpot I've ever seen.
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Keep in mind that he is described as having nut brown skin, so any Moe theories have to have some really impressive crackpot like getting into another body.
Also, Meppa seems to very much believe in The God, and his Water is wicked-strong which follows our understanding of how passion is the key for using the Psukhe.
My best guess is that he's one of the incandati. We know that there are nine of them, or we at least know that the SS believed that there were nine of them. Did they all take the field at Shimeh? Did Meppa survive the battle and get amnesia or was he never on the field at all?
The one thing that I think is strange is that in the little glimpse that we get in WLW it does not appear like there is any effort to train more Cish. If I had one like Fanayal has, I would think I'd be desperate to get some more. The only alternative that I can think of is perhaps they believe that striking the Empire now represents their best chance, so they're going all in.
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Does anyone recall how old Meppa is described as being?
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Another crackpot idea: Meppa is Xinemus.
Complicating factors include that Xinemus is dead (and we, through Achamian, watched him die), that his body was burned (I don't think we witnessed this), and that he was not known to be one of the Few.
But, if those slight obstacles can be overcome, it's possible to construct a plausible arc in which the Inrithi Marshal of Attrempus becomes the Last Cishaurim. By the time of his death, Xinemus has been blinded -- a prerequisite for harnessing the Psûkhe. He's become more passionate, to the point of insanity, and thus has the potential to be strong in the Psûkhe. And he has lost faith in Kellhus, having realized Kellhus cannot heal.
As regards appearance, Meppa has nut-brown skin and white hair. Xinemus is Ketyai and about the same age as Achamian, so both skin and hair match.
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Does anyone recall how old Meppa is described as being?
I think that we are told that he has white hair, but we're not told more than that as far as I can recall in terms of things that would reveal age.
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Another crackpot idea: Meppa is Xinemus.
Complicating factors include that Xinemus is dead (and we, through Achamian, watched him die), that his body was burned (I don't think we witnessed this), and that he was not known to be one of the Few.
But, if those slight obstacles can be overcome, it's possible to construct a plausible arc in which the Inrithi Marshal of Attrempus becomes the Last Cishaurim. By the time of his death, Xinemus has been blinded -- a prerequisite for harnessing the Psûkhe. He's become more passionate, to the point of insanity, and thus has the potential to be strong in the Psûkhe. And he has lost faith in Kellhus, having realized Kellhus cannot heal.
As regards appearance, Meppa has nut-brown skin and white hair. Xinemus is Ketyai and about the same age as Achamian, so both skin and hair match.
Wow, this is a crackpot idea I really like. If only we could figure out a way around his inconvenient death. ;)
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Wow, this is a crackpot idea I really like. If only we could figure out a way around his inconvenient death. ;)
Sometimes the dead bounce...?
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Further "evidence" for my crackpot theory: in another thread (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/post11738950.html#p11738950) Madness quoted a passage from TWP that shows Xinemus really, really interested in the Cishaurim. (The bolding is mine, of course.)
When they passed near the camps of the enemy, they could feel the Cishaurim’s plucked eyes—brilliant, pure, like a lamplight before a silvered mirror—search for them from beyond the horizon. Many times Achamian felt that otherworldly light throw shadows from their shadows. Many times Achamian thought they were doomed. But always those eyes turned away their inhuman scrutiny, either deceived or … Achamian could not say why.
followed a bit later by
“Akka,” Xinemus said, scowling in his queer, eyeless fashion. “When we walked as shadows …”
The Marshal hesitated, and for a moment Achamian feared an onslaught of recriminations. Before Iothiah, the notion of using sorcery to slip past the enemy would have been unthinkable for Xinemus. And yet he’d acquiesced with scarcely a complaint when Achamian had suggested the possibility in Joktha. Did he repent? Or had he, like Achamian, been gouged of his previous cares as well?
“I’m blind,” Xinemus continued. “Blind as blind could be, Akka! And yet I saw them … The Cishaurim. I saw them seeing!”
Achamian pursed his lips, troubled by the fear-to-hope tone of the Marshal’s voice.
“You did see,” he said carefully, “in a manner … There’s many ways of seeing. And all of us possess eyes that never breach skin. Men are wrong to think nothing lies between blindness and sight.”
“And the Cishaurim?” Xinemus pressed. “Is that … Is that how they—”
“The Cishaurim are masters of this interval. They blind themselves, they say, to better see the World Between. According to some, it’s the key to their metaphysics.”
“So …” Xinemus began, unable to contain the passion in his voice.
“Not now, Zin,” Achamian said, watching the most senior of the Tydonni knights, a choleric thane called Anmergal, stride toward them from the compound gate. “Some other time …”
And why did the Cishaurim look away from he and Achamian? Perhaps they already sensed a kindred spirit in Xinemus, who was beginning to see as they did.
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Personally, I think they looked away from Achamian and Xinemus because Moenghus commanded the Cishaurim to let all peoples draw towards his son. He obviously commanded much respect among the Cishaurim, as he communicated personally with Xerius, not to mention, his own sect. The more who congregated towards Kellhus' gravitas, despite the odds of survival, the more Moenghus was assured his son succeeded.
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That's a great find simply for understanding of the Cish.
Can someone remind me how Xin dies and how on screen it is?
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He up and dies, they have a small funeral offscreen in which he's burned.
The guy's pretty dead.
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Titirga? Man, that guy was only in one short story, and he's already one of the more badass characters in the series.
If I've got to guess somebody we've already seen as being Meppa I'm going with that one random kid. You know, that kid trying to gather salt from the remains of sorcerers after the final battle. Why draw our attention to him?
Him and that cat...! :D
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I think Meppa is a construct of Moe, i also think Moe was a lot stronger in the water than he claimed. For instance when kel meets him in the background water is thundering about him and described in a lot of power, and also Moe uses the literal water to blind Kellhus to his face. I don't know if this constitutes any sort of proof i have no formal training in interpeting books. However in my head it seems like a good metaphor of Moe actually decieiving him about being weak in water, while he is actually surrounded by loads of it. Perhaps Moe reasoned that to better recollect the one angle not only can one blind themselves to their surrounding but also to themselves (by losing his memory). again not sure if this hold any water.
Canuir speculates that Kel is planning "beyond" moe, surely Moe was planning beyond kellhus, also Kellhus cannot read his father at all during the encounter.
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I'm of the firm opinion that Moenghus the Elder has a part to play in this series yet, either himself, living or dead, or his sect of Cishaurim.
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Moe is dead. Deal with it people.
Meppa is Meppa - a new character, and not a stand-in for another previously dead character, but if he is, he is definitely Xinemas or Elvis.
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So is Seswatha, but, i suspect/guess both will still play a significant part in the series.
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I would've gone with Elvis but then i remembered he owns the grill restaurant the Domain of the King in space. Maybe the Inchies brought him along with them?
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Actually, Elvis is coming back. He's next to be recreated a la Tupac Coachella.
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I think Elvis works as an Inchoroi. I once saw a candid film clip of him from the fifties, asking his friends (you'll have to supply the accent), "What's the time? It's 2:00 am. My face is normally covered in pussy this time of a morning."
It is hard to accept Moenghus' return. It is reasonable to anticipate the appearance of several Dunyain, who survivied the slaughter at Ishual (who caused it, Kellhus or the Consult?), and now work for the Consult.
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i believe Cnaiur urs Skiotha is the remaining snakehead.......no matter what the summary tales say...............
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"Meppa raised bare hands, pulled back the deep cowl that had obscured his face. The mask Fanayal referred to was not so much a mask as a kind of blindfold: a band of silver as wide as a child's palm lay about his upper face, as if a too-large crown had slipped over his eyes. The sun flashed across its circuit, gleamed across the innumerable lines etched into it: water rushing sideways, around and around in an infinite cataract.
His cowl thrown back, Meppa raised the band from his head. His hair was as white as the peaks of Atkondras, his skin nut brown. No eyes glinted from the shadow of his sockets..." (WLW, p192).
"The rogue Cishaurim floating, impervious to the fire of the Schoolman's Anagogic dragonhead, disgorging cataracts of blue-twinkling light as pure as it was beautiful. As awesome as Meppa's power had been - there was no doubting he was a Primary - it had been the beauty that had most astounded, and mortified, the Second Negotiant ... 'The people call him Stonebreaker ... Meppa... they say he was sent to us by the Solitary God ... He does not know who he is'" (p235).
Just thought I'd bump with the relevant Meppa quotes. Rereading his passages gives me a load of inspiration for Cishaurim speculation but these are all his "physical" descriptions, minus one by Psatma concerning the depth of Meppa's Water.
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The Meppa mystery has driven me near as mad as the Cleric mystery did.
I've touched on this a bit on westeros.org.
W/ Cleric, I really felt very strongly that he was someone...someone from the story, someone from the appendix, etc...and it turned out to be true.
I'm tempted to feel the same way w/ Meppa, but I have a lot less confidence. He could simply be someone new. But I have a problem with that too. It doesn't seem like Bakker especially w/ Cleric. Also, it seems a bit strange that there is only one Cishaurim. Can Meppa not train anyone else? Or do the Cish not train so much because they don't understand their stuff? If that's the case, why only one?
I suppose there's a chance that Meppa is a Primary who fought at Shimeh and was knocked out and became an amnesiac, but who knows.
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Because there can only be one!
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Also, it seems a bit strange that there is only one Cishaurim. Can Meppa not train anyone else? Or do the Cish not train so much because they don't understand their stuff? If that's the case, why only one?
The cishies were not just an order of sorcerer priests, they were also a tribal clan - the Indara-Kishauri.
This, together with the supression of fanimry and Meppa's ignorance of his personal heritage kinda makes him training acolytes unlikely to me.
Cish metaphysics are faith based; the Kian have likely had their culture smashed after the holy war - and even if a child wanted to learn of the kipfa'aifan etc, their ignorance probably couldn't be washed away by a crazy old dude with a very bad memory.
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Not really on topic, but does the light still come out of the eyes of the blinded Cish?
And one more thought, why the eyes and mouth? How about the ears and nose as well, I mean they are all orifices.
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all orifices
good point. borne water pours from honey-scented anus?
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There's a couple other examples but it's consistent throughout the books:
"'Demon!' A voice like a thunderclap.
They turned from the blood-soaked marble, saw an old, eyeless man approach them from the deeper temple. Something flashed from his forehead, like a stolen star" (TTT, p407).
"In trios, the weaker crouched and dashed through the ruins, white-blue energies spilling from their foreheads like water toppling toward unseen grounds" (p445).
Also... topical and of interest:
"The Scarlet Spires knew of the Nine Incandati, those Primaries whose backs could bear the most Water, but they had no inkling as to their true strength. Now the greatest of the Psukari assailed them: Soekti, Inkorot, Hab'hara, Fanfarokar, Sartmandri... And they could not cope" (p455).
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There's a couple other examples but it's consistent throughout the books:
Also... topical and of interest:
"The Scarlet Spires knew of the Nine Incandati, those Primaries whose backs could bear the most Water, but they had no inkling as to their true strength. Now the greatest of the Psukari assailed them: Soekti, Inkorot, Hab'hara, Fanfarokar, Sartmandri... And they could not cope" (p455).
Yeah, I have long wondered if Meppa could be one of the Incandati. Malowebi's description makes it sound like Meppa is about as powerful as a Cish can be.
Also, it seemed implied that the Scarlet Spires erred in their estimation of the Cish. The SS arrogantly believed that their top light-spitters were superior to the top Cish, and it sounds like that was not true...the Primaries were better than the SS.
Could Meppa possibly have his powers improved by his amnesia? Is amnesia some manner of blindness too? Could the purity of his faith be improved by being unencumbered by memory?
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There's been talk of the lack of memory improving Meppa's powers.
There actually are some intriguing parallels to a couple real-life neurological disorders, wherein people experience a visual world, they cannot physically see.
Some relevancies while I was searching for our other thread, Trisk:
Proyas recalling Shimeh:
"There had been five of them, Primaries, mightier, despite the crudity of their art, than the most accomplished Schoolmen. Five hellish figured floating high above the burning city, their eyes gouged so they might see the Water-that-was-Light - and Anasurimbor Kellhus had slain them all" (WLW, p556).
Psatma beholding Meppa, which I omitted before, as it's not strictly a "physical" description:
"'You bear the Water within you,' she said to the Last Cishaurim. She drew a palm across the plane of her abdomen. "Like an ocean! You can strike me down with your merest whim! And yet you stand here bandying threats and insults?'
'I serve my Lord Padirajah'" (p398).
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That text is interesting.
It implies that the Primaries of the Cishaurim are indeed superior to the best of the SS...but it can't mean better than the Mandati can it?
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Certainly not better than the Mandati!
Though I guess it is possible the speaker in the quoted sections is the grandmaster of the SS right? So I would guess in his inner monologue 'all schoolmen' could easily be just the anagogic schools. A kind of self justification of why the Mandate are stronger, they aren't really schoolmen but rather something else entirely, a way of saying "we are the best".
Though after the scholastic wars I'm sure most of the schools know just how strong the Mandate are. But, again, sons tend to forget the plight of their fathers.
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And one more thought, why the eyes and mouth? How about the ears and nose as well, I mean they are all orifices.
Seems fairly straightforward to me. Eyes and mouth are associated with meaning drawing and illustrating meaning.
It's metaphysics, not physics. The manifestation of sorcerous power is tied to how the practioners percieve the nature of reality.
For the cish, they were originally a tribe of kianene who distributed water to the needy in the desert. They saved Fane from dehydration and accepted him into the tribe after his relevations and he, in turn, taught his insights within the frame of their religon. Thus 'water-bearers'.
When it comes to relative power levels, of course the SS belived their top practioners more powerful. But that's framed by who ultimately thinks they are correct in a metaphysical sense, yes? My arguements are more effective because I percieve them to be true, as it were.
In practice I think its more like an arguement between theological philosphers. The cish primary might win via the passion of their arguement, or the SS grandmaster might triumph by revealing flaws through the illustrative power of an effective anology. Obviously a mandati war singer can lay down some impressive statistical ananlysis and analytical geometries that completely undermine either of the former's unweildy arguements ;)
The cishies fighting in Shimeh would have been bolstered by desperation and fighting in one of their holiest places, whereas the SS were risking themselves for vengeance's sake in a foriegn land, this would also boost the odds in the cishies favour for this encounter.
I think Meppa's power levels would be increased above a primary's level, because he lacks personal history that would interfere with his ability to bear water. The cish remove the eyes to block out the profane; how much more effective to also remove the memories of seeing the profane?
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Eyes an mouth and not nose, but why not ears? Why not deafen yourself to better hear the gods, to better hear their words and therefore be able to project the meaning without the mundane distractions of your own world. Why not have light pour from the ears just as the eyes and mouth.
By your own argument drawing meaning is important, thus to better see they blind, why then not to better hear - deafen?
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The meaning of sorcerous words has no real importance to the ear. The eyes see the onta, the mouth is the conduit for the power that changes it. The eyes and mouth are the two organs involved in channeling anagogic power.
Akka mentions that using a dead language is important in removing the ambiguity of meaning caused by interpretive listening, so I think that may indeed be a form of deafness similar to the way the cishies remove their eyes?
From memory, the cishies evidence their conduit with sorcerous power with light emenating from their forehead, or 'third eye' (except in Moenghus' death scene, but it's uncertain if he is using cish sorcery, or any sorcery at all there - it might just be from the chorae disolving his soul).
I'm not sure if they make utterences as part of spell casting at all... anyone?
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I wish I weren't sick and working all weekend - into tuesday, anyhow. Not to mention, school.
I can't wait to parse these threads for new ones. So many quality threads of thought.
For the moment, Curethan, I think you've hit on something with the loss of memory increasing the power of the Psukhe, analogous to the loss of eyes. Our memories are associative. They provide an aspect of stability for the physical and psychic (or mental) realities around us.
Also, Athjeari and I almost got into it years ago on old Three-Seas about linguistics and sorcery. Now Bakker only has a real rudimentary knowledge of linguistics - more than enough to dupe the average reader and remain consistent - but there's some neat analogies that can be drawn between the two.
The initial thought there was that Gnostic sorcery in the books reflects an inutteral and an utteral - that is, the gap between thought and language.
So little time. Fucking work.
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If a lack of memory is significant for Meppa's power, it makes me wonder, as I've wondered before, if Meppa is someone's experiment. For example, what if Moe speculated that removing not just eyes but memory would create, as Madness calls it, a metapsukhari?
We've gone over it a bit, but there is one more little piece in WLW that makes me wonder if Meppa isn't really powerful, and it's this: I don't have the quote handy, but Malo is reflecting back on having seen Meppa just own the one Saik sorcerer in Iothiah. Now if he's a Primary that isn't so significant in and of itself. But Malo also notes how beautful the display is. Now this could be nothing...it could simply be a description of the Psukhe in action that Bakker is giving us. But for some reason it makes me wonder if it's some kind of extra hint about Meppa's significance.
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OK - I had another random thought.
I'd joked in the past that Meppa was a reincarnation of Fane. I was truly joking, but I think that there's a possibility that I'm not sure we've considered yet. If someone else has touched on this, I apologize.
What if Meppa is not Moe or any experiment by Moe or anyone. What if he's not Xin of Cnaiur or Inrau via crackpot. What if he's also not a surviving Incandati from Shimeh.
What if he is another person who "found" the Water just like Fane did? And if that's the case, what could it mean?
From what we know, the Water was found by Fane in the desert, and this was both the discovery of a new form of sorcery as well as a founding of a new religion as well as possibly a revelation from the Solitary God.
But others were able to find the Water once Fane did, but no one had before. Since the discovery of Water directly coincides w/ the founding of Fanimry, does that not imply that passionate Fanim belief really goes get some people access to the Water? And it is that and that only since no one had Water before Fane? If that is so, does that not suggest that the Fanim are really onto something, and the Solitary God could be legit? Or perhaps they've got part of it wrong, but they're still onto something?
If any of that is making any sense, I do wonder if the Solitary God did indeed "send" someone to the Fanim by revealing again the Water that had been lost to the world at Shimeh.
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Spontaneous revelation's a neat idea, Trisk... I still wonder who has anoited Fanayal as well..
Also, the description of the Psukhe is in a post of mine on p3 of this thread... I think, it's directly after the "identifying Meppa as Primary" sentence.
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As I noted earlier, the designation of cish sorcery as 'bearing water' is a carry over from the Kian tribe that took in Fane. They were a tribe famed for bringing water to those in need in the deserts - already somewhat holy.
Given the ways that sorcery is 'translated' into the material world in Earwa, I think that the context of Fane's arcane teachings and their cultural meanings inform the way that the sorcery is manifested.
What I am trying to say here is that if someone independently discovered the same metaphysics that underpin the psukhe, the form of their sorcery would be visibly different because the various ways of exercising those powers are elaborations. Similar to the differences between the anagogic schools, the Spires' trusty dragon heads, the Saik's fireballs and that new guy's use of totems with his cants of calling.
False Dawn hints that Titirga has some grasp on channeling the emotive aspects of meaning ala the psuhke (early blindness, different mark etc) but he doesn't have the same faith based grounding as the cish.
All the various sorcerers are clearly 'onto something' - I don't think any of them truly understand where their powers come from or why they work.
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As I noted earlier, the designation of cish sorcery as 'bearing water' is a carry over from the Kian tribe that took in Fane. They were a tribe famed for bringing water to those in need in the deserts - already somewhat holy.
Given the ways that sorcery is 'translated' into the material world in Earwa, I think that the context of Fane's arcane teachings and their cultural meanings inform the way that the sorcery is manifested.
What I am trying to say here is that if someone independently discovered the same metaphysics that underpin the psukhe, the form of their sorcery would be visibly different because the various ways of exercising those powers are elaborations. Similar to the differences between the anagogic schools, the Spires' trusty dragon heads, the Saik's fireballs and that new guy's use of totems with his cants of calling.
False Dawn hints that Titirga has some grasp on channeling the emotive aspects of meaning ala the psuhke (early blindness, different mark etc) but he doesn't have the same faith based grounding as the cish.
All the various sorcerers are clearly 'onto something' - I don't think any of them truly understand where their powers come from or why they work.
Are you saying that if (and I realize it's a big "if") there was spontaneous revelation that it wouldn't be the psukhe exactly, but a slightly different new sorcery?
We don't really seem to know all that much about the Cishaurim's culture. We don't know to what degree the psukhe is taught compared to the way the gnosis and anagogis are clearly taught.
Did Fane basically just start telling people to blind themselves and believe really hard and then you'll bear some Water too?
Also, random question, but from what Madness quoted on when Iyokus sicks some Ciphrang on the Cish at Shimeh, does it not seem like the Cish handle them easily enough?
It's said at some point earlier in the books that the practitioners of the Daimos secretly would wonder how it might hold up against the Gnosis. It sort of sounds like it had about as much trouble against the Psukhe as it did the Gnosis.
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Are you saying that if (and I realize it's a big "if") there was spontaneous revelation that it wouldn't be the psukhe exactly, but a slightly different new sorcery?
We don't really seem to know all that much about the Cishaurim's culture. We don't know to what degree the psukhe is taught compared to the way the gnosis and anagogis are clearly taught.
Did Fane basically just start telling people to blind themselves and believe really hard and then you'll bear some Water too?
To the initial question, I answer yes.
My inference is drawn from the entries in the Glossary about the Tribe that found Fane and gave him succour. They were already known as the water bearers within the Kian culture because they went around dispensing water to the needy. To the blinded and dehydrated Fane, it must have seemed like divine intervention. (And maybe it was :p)
From the differences presented in the text and Kellhus' training scenes, I think it's safe to assume that the manifestion of sorcerous power is very much based on the cultural background and training of the practicioners.
While the basic metaphysics would be the same, there would be no reason to refer to the powers weilded as 'water' and this difference along with differences in the beliefs about the source of the powers and what they should and could be used for would change the way that the power was unleashed.
Of course Fane would have taught them about his revelations and beliefs - he used to be a priest, remember... I think it simplistic to suggest that he was like, hey want some sweet powers? Poke out your eyes and wish really hard.
Nobody can simply choose what to believe - you should banish that notion. People have to be convinced, and they must convince themselves. Revelations come from rejecting one's current beliefs - just ask any born-again. I think you can be critical and choose what not to believe, but I don't think it works the other way.
Anyway, I'm fairly sure you have to be blind and one of the Few to use the Psukhe. I don't recall anything about it being based on belief, although it seems axiomatic that passionate religious beliefs would amp up the passions that seem to underpin its more destructive applications.
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MMM
Moenghus
Maithanet
Meppa
Remember what Inrau told Achamian about Maithanet's name? Is that not similar to Meppa's name?
Would not Moenghus have placed one of his sons in the Fanim Priesthood and one of his sons in the Inrithi Priesthood?
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MMM
Remember what Inrau told Achamian about Maithanet's name? Is that not similar to Meppa's name?
Would not Moenghus have placed one of his sons in the Fanim Priesthood and one of his sons in the Inrithi Priesthood?
What did Inrau say about Maithanet's name?
I still think it's weird, if I'm remembering correctly, that some cant or ward called the "Meppa Cataract" is mentioned in the first series, and I think it's a SS spell. What the Hell does that mean? It might mean nothing, but that would be strange.
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Maithanet's name means something specific as this is the reason Shriah's take a new name - in this case, I bellieve, books not on hand, that his name means "to instruct" or "the lesson" ... it's in TDTCB when Inrau is telling Achamian about Maithanet and Achamian chastizes himself for not remembering that Shriah's take a Name.
Also, lockesnow... I bow.... That is an amazingly poetic theory. Meppa, second son of Moenghus, Fanim Priest :D!
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“But Maithanet is more than you can understand,” Inrau was saying. The young man’s entire body seemed to flinch from the round-rushing air of the tavern. “Some almost worship him, though this angers him. He’s to be obeyed, not worshipped. That’s why he took his name—”
“His name?” It hadn’t occurred to Achamian that his name might mean something. This in itself disturbed him. It was a Shrial tradition to take a new name. How could such simple things slip past him?
“Yes,” Inrau replied. “From mai’tathana.”
Achamian was unfamiliar with the word. But before he could ask, lnrau continued his explanation, his tone defiant, as though the former student could only now, finally beyond the reach of the Mandate, vent old resentments. “Its meaning would be unknown to you. Mai’tathana is Thoti-Eännorean, the language of the Tusk. It means ‘instruction.’”
So what's the lesson?
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 87). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
As Triskele pointed out, Meppa is a word that has a water connotation, and it probably also has an ancient, religious implication.
In terms of Scifi/fantasy connections, could Meppa be the sign of a second foundation, Moe's hedge against the fall of Maithanet?
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Let's game this out a bit.
We know that Meppa has white hair. It's not inconceivable that he somehow went white way early, but typically this implies he's pretty old.
Was Maithanet about 30 or so during the time of the first series? If so, he's about 50 in WLW, and it seems pretty unlikely that Meppa would be older if he were another son of Moe. So for this to be possible we probably have to believe he's gone all white-haired barely out of his 40's. Not impossible, but not likely.
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"'Tell me, Uncle Holy. How many children did grandfather sire?'
'Six,' the Shriah replied. There was a toneless brevity to the exchange now, as if they had shed the disguises they used when interacting with normal men.
'Were any of them like me?'
A fraction of a heartbeart.
'I have no way of knowing. He drowned them at the first sign of peculiarities.'
'And you were the only one that expressed... balance?'
'I was the only one'" (WLW, p407).
@ lockesnow, or second foundation in the sense of it being the original plan :shock: ?!
He could be older than Maithanet?
Are Heresiarch and Shriah the same religiously - obviously, one is a badass sorcerer, the other just sees the Few?
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@ lockesnow, or second foundation in the sense of it being the original plan :shock: ?!
Exactly.
Also note: Drowning=water death. Water is holy
Drowned? or baptized? What better way to deceive a half Dunayin like Inrilatus than to say Drowned but in the usage to not mean that they die, using the term Drowning would prime Inri to think they had died and so to not see deeper. Hiding behind an inconsistency of language and a lack of understanding of the culture (and Inri's cultural assumptions of) of the Kian. :)
Imagine seeing the scene from Kellhus' perspective, "he flatters himself, feed his sense of specialness and you will blind him to the truth and control the movements of his soul."
Everything Maitha says in the passage you quoted flatters Inri's internal sense of specialness.
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Holy shit.
This all of the sudden seems more plausible. Great catches on what Maitha says to Inralatus and what Kellhus had said about him.
The only problem is the age thing. We are led to believe that Moe fathered Maithanet pretty quickly on his whole thirty years in the world thing. So while it's not impossible that Meppa-as-son-of-Moe is older than Maithanet, it's pretty much impossible that he's much older.
ETA: I do think it's strange that there is a "Meppa Cataract" spell in the Anagogis. There's a guy named Meppa, he's a Cish, and there's only one other mention of "Meppa" anywhere in the text.
I think someone posited before that "Meppa" could be a place, and that's how both a spell and a person could be named after it.
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uh, Kellhus didn't say that, I was just speculating how Kellhus would think about it.
Wouldn't it be great if 'drowning' were the name of the ceremony that made men into Cishaurim?
Perhaps Maithanet was the reject, and thus was not brought into the priesthood? but Moe didn't discard a useful tool and instead positioned him to control the Inrithi priesthood--what if Moe's plans had been to unify the faiths?
Or perhaps we should infer that Inri and Kelmo et al would all be sane if they had been drowned in the water at birth and raised as Cishaurim priests, totally pure in their faith, without even knowledge of identity sullying them?
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haha loving this. Second foundation, I mean we've already got Adams and Herbert, hell why not Asimov. I'd dig that.
Words with double meanings to lie within truths, so easy to fool a truth-sayer, a very dunyain thing to do.
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lockesnow - my bad. I thought you were quoting Kellhus. You got me excited there.
Let me ask a general question: When I read WLW (and it feels the same way when I re-read it), I get this impression that Meppa is really important. As in, more important than Fanayal is still alive and has a little backing and one Cishaurim with him.
If you think of it in a chess piece analogy, it's not that big of a deal if you're trying to overthrow the whole empire if you get just one Cishaurim, even if he's a Primary. If you were the Empire and it was like "all your sorcerers are dead or w/ the Great Ordeal, but you just learned Eli is back and with you," that wouldn't really change your situation that much.
This is why I can't stop wondering what is up with him, but we're given so little to play with in the material. Does he represent some of Moe's designs? Is he actually a sign/gift from the Solitary God? Is he more powerful than any Cish we've previously seen?
I guess ultimately I'm asking if this board feels the same as I do when they read WLW that Meppa has to mean something more than Fanayal simply has one Fanim sorcerer-priest with him.
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I hope Meppa is more important than Fanayal... I think there is too little chance of his success after the Psatma scenes. Meppa is the only real mystery in the equation. I find myself hoping that Meppa is feigning loyalty to Fanayal due to some mutual goal as I find Fanayal kind of annoying. But then again if Meppa had amnesia perhaps he was sort of conditioned by Fanayal as to where his loyalty was.
I am definately of the opinion that Meppa is a place where both the amnesiac Cish was found and that the anagogic spell was named after. It just makes sense. Then again, it could just mean ocean or great body of water or some such in another language.
I know on another thread that the consensus seemed to be that Cnaiur's arc was done due to Scott saying so in an interview (I couldn't find it but I tend to believe people around here as they can quote half the series from memory lol) but with such an ambiguous ending in TTT I think it would be an interesting to find it's Cnaiur twisted by the consult. Perhaps they even really took his memory from him... I mean, if the power of the Psuhke is dependent upon the passion within the Cish, who the fuck is more passionate than Cnaiur Urs Skiotha? We have no idea what the consult are truly capable of but we know that it includes glamours and stuff so don't come at me with that 'but he was butternut squash colored and Meppa is nut brown' or 'where are the swazond' stuff... haterz. LoL I kid, I kid. So does this constitute my first nerdanel?
p.s. I apologize if this post is senseless, if it's easily refutable by canon, or if it has been brought up before... I have been drinking entirely too much Crown Royal tonight lol.
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All it takes is a well aimed chorae to kill Meppa. Though he could pose a rather large problem if Kellhus took nearly all of them with him, which I think is likely. Without much to fight against Meppa, the Empire is pretty much bending over, not that it will matter since the outcome of the Great Ordeal, as suggested elsewhere from others, will end up uniting everyone anyway.
lol@ Cnaiur is Meppa. I like that theory better, at least, then Big Moe as I have written him off as salted a long time ago. Cniaur's end could possibly be ambiguous enough to warrant some speculation. I'm sure the tekne could stitch up a little cut don't you think? Hell, why not blind the guy while you've got him under and block him from most of his memories. See if you can't get yourself a Cishi to play with. BTW key word is block, not erase. Blocked memories could still have subconscious effects, retaining the necessary Passion to wield the psuke.
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Lol, last things first, Conditioned - perfectly coherent stream of conscious. I'm not sure there's any sense of behavioural borders, other than those the forum members decide in communicative consensus and you're well within canon. I'm thinking most of us are young, working class/students, orbited by the classic outliers, with a variety of vices and a beyond social accepted appetite for thinking about... well, pretty much everything. Bakker's writing, this series, deserves an engaged audience :).
Also, don't be discouraged. I'm not sure any of us can quote the series beyond paraphrase... well, maybe lockesnow and Wilshire. For my part, it's simply motivated by academics and documenting evidence - I have a fantastic memory for narrative wholes and segments, it seems, so I look up the passages I need. Plus, we all bend the ambiguity, reading whats not there, to our own personal associations. Bakker's riffing off that, this transmission from writer to reader. Neat to explore.
Not even close to a Nerdanel, Conditioned. Nerdanel was a... outlandish. Off the reservation, somewhere in Eanna ;). But I do want to add that we never actually see Meppa's arms.
Otherwise.
Meppa and Maithanet have to be under thirty as we're all agreeing. I've known twenty year olds to go stark white. Maybe Moenghus just kept Meppa in the Kyudean Mansion for his entire life and he finally wandered free after Shimeh ;).
The Meppa Cataract, Cant, landmark, name, trifecta highlights why quoting also becomes important because it's a text. This is why only in bending our combined mental efforts together can we anticipate Bakker because three pounds is not enough to solve the Second Apocalypse. If Bakker took the time to write it, and he's pretty conscious of his writing, then I daresay its a red herring, or it's exactly what we're conceding together now.
In terms of where Bakker's going, I've found the Layer of Revelation rule pretty handy for interpretation.
TDTCB - Mention of Cishaurim and we recall them from Eleazarus' persprective in recounting the assasination of the former Scarlet Spires Grandmaster, Sasheoka.
TWP - Battle of Mengeadda: Omniscient war perspective
TTT - Battle of Shimeh: Psukhe vs. Anagogic
TJE - Rumours of Fanayal using Cishaurim in his raids against the Kellian Empire.
WLW - Meppa?
Really, we don't know anything about the Cishaurim five books in. How likely is it that Bakker has more to flesh out about the Cishaurim, that the bad guys from series 1 are actually the revelatory good guys all along in series 2, and that the only narrative connection to them remaining is going to give us those revelations lol?
Pretty fraking likely, if you ask me.
@ Wilshire, it's a big noteworthy moment when Malowebi realizes that he can tell Zuem that the Kellian Empire has no Chorae.
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In terms of where Bakker's going, I've found the Layer of Revelation rule pretty handy for interpretation.
TDTCB - Mention of Cishaurim and we recall them from Eleazarus' persprective in recounting the assasination of the former Scarlet Spires Grandmaster, Sasheoka.
TWP - Battle of Mengeadda: Omniscient war perspective
TTT - Battle of Shimeh: Psukhe vs. Anagogic
TJE - Rumours of Fanayal using Cishaurim in his raids against the Kellian Empire.
WLW - Meppa?
Really, we don't know anything about the Cishaurim five books in. How likely is it that Bakker has more to flesh out about the Cishaurim, that the bad guys from series 1 are actually the revelatory good guys all along in series 2, and that the only narrative connection to them remaining is going to give us those revelations lol?
Pretty fraking likely, if you ask me.
@ Wilshire, it's a big noteworthy moment when Malowebi realizes that he can tell Zuem that the Kellian Empire has no Chorae.
Having that progression is pretty useful, and the rest of your post sums up my feeling pretty nicely. I have a hard time believing that Meppa's only significance is that Fanayal has one Cishaurim added to the chess board. But if he is more significant than that...there's no limit to what one could imagine he represents.
I think that's why I'm not discounting something like another Fane-like revelation from the Solitary God.
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Meppa is one of Big Moe's Cish. I don't think it's anything more than that. If he was Big Moe himself, he'd have the Scylvendi scars.
He's likely there to kill Fayanal at the right moment.
I was re-reading the thread, and I forget if this has been pointed out or not (or perhaps it's so obvious no one thought it necessary to point out), but we don't really know that Meppa is an amnesiac do we? We're just taking it on Fanayal's word. I don't think it's referenced anywhere else other than "Meppa? He does not know who he is."
So we're inferring a lot there.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Meppa is an amnesiac after all, but it is also not a safe assumption based on that line from Fanayal. EAMD.*
*Especially by Dunyain.
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Cish are harmed by chorae and have/leave no Mark
question
Do Cish
experience all the characteristics of the Few
See the Mark before and after sorcerous initiation
sense chorae
basically, are they the few?
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I think your thoughts are legit, Trisk. We're at the mercy of Malowebi's perspective of Fanayal's words.
A couple thoughts.
You can apply that LoR template to anything Bakker and it seems to provide insight. I haven't found reason to toss it away yet.
Also, I am 100% convinced that Cishaurim do not salt like the Few.
I don't think they are, jogrady. But this is certainly up for debate and contention.
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What if Anagogic and Gnostic sorcerers hit by Tears of God get salted and sent to Hell but Cishaurim hit by Chorae, while still forced out of the world, get sent to be with their God?
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It's possible. Considering that people tend to go towards the gods they worshiped in life, well, the only people who dont worship are the schoolmen. Perhaps there is a special place for the nonbelievers. Not that that is any better since the gods just eat you anyway.
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It's possible. Considering that people tend to go towards the gods they worshiped in life, well, the only people who dont worship are the schoolmen. Perhaps there is a special place for the nonbelievers. Not that that is any better since the gods just eat you anyway.
I guess I was trying to think a bit about the aporetic sorcery that governs the trinkets, but I admit I hadn't researched that one enough. But when Madness mentioned his feeling that the Cish, while they may go away, do not salt...that got me thinking. I cannot verify but would assume that he's correct that there's no textual evidence that the Cish salt when hit w/ Chorae though we know that they "burn" or evaporate or dissipate or something. They're still undone in this world by the Chorae.
But I am now not sure if they're actually of the Few or not, and if we also don't know who they go w/ the Chorae and that the Chorae is based on some mechanism...it doesn't seem that far-fetched all of the sudden to posit that what happens to a psukhari when hit w/ a trinket is significantly different than what happens to an actual user of the Anagogis, Daimos, or Gnosis. Hell, unless someone can find a good piece of text, it feels to me like chorae expelling them from the mundane world, as far as we know, is the only thing the two situations have in common.
Did anyone ever notice how close "Meppa" is to "Mecca" and wonder about it?
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I don't believe it is significantly different. At least to me the descriptions are vague enough to me to pretend like the Cish and the other schoolmen die in more or less the same way. Madness does though so let him talk about it :P im just the voice of dissent.
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the "salting" in an of itself is tremendously interesting and enigmatic. Salt is purifying, right? The mark is a stain? There's also all the biblical references that Salt implies.
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I need to find the quotes, I've posted them before, but there are only three described instances of Cishaurim touching Chorae. I can't find/remember any scenes describing salted Cishaurim.
One of them is Moenghus the Elder, its ambiguous, but the other two are described as "a burst of incandescence rimmed by a nacre of black" (TTT, p488). However, I've read a Scarlet Schoolman being hit by a Chorae, similarly described - excepting that the Schoolman is also explicitly Salted.
lockesnow, you're onto something with it, I think. If I remember correctly from my religious upbringing, Lot's wife turns into a pillar of salt when she looks back on God's destruction of the sinful cities, Sodom and Gommorah, in the Old Testement.
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Lot's wife does turn into a pillar of salt:
http://bible.cc/genesis/19-26.htm
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I'm just not sure if that one instance of salting is enough to imply biblical reference within the narrative.
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1 instance is enough to disprove but never enough to prove.
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Where'd you pick up that yardstick? Not mockery, interested.
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I vaguely seem to remember RSB saying something like he added the salting because of the biblical implications (it is cool imo) but never really had a cause and effect reasoning behind it.
Somewhere... maybe...
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Where'd you pick up that yardstick? Not mockery, interested.
Eh, my vague understanding of complicated math as well of my background in science. Like how "germ theory" or "atomic theory" remain Theory, despite the thousands of proofs that can be seen or shown, etc. Like when those idiots thought they broke the light speed limit with their neutrinos, everyone was 'like oh shit Einstein is wrong!', even though proofs and implementation of his theory of relativity have been around for decades.
To me its basically a rule of thumb since I don't have enough absolute understanding in the math behind the statement to say that its an absolute fact. A fun fact taken from my more intelligent friends hard work, forced into a palatable one liner by my own guile and experience.
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OK, this is pretty crackpot, but would a body without water not turn to dust or...salt? Is the Cish's power not...water?
It's just a random thought, but I wondered if the Cish are right about the Solitary God than maybe the appropriate punishment for sinful sorcerers would be an absence of water.
Pretty unlikely, I know. Probably not the mechanism the Aporos would hinge on.
Also, a random thought. Do you think Bakker named him Fane because he was profane to the Inrithi as a heathen/heretic?
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That nuance could be seen as a bonus, but I believe 'fane' is a word for a type of temple as well.
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If the god lies dormant within individuals (as has been noted in the No-god thread) and is dependent on the eyes of its host souled creature to be able to have perception, could the blindness of the Cishaurim be the key to their magic not resulting in damnation?
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That witness is crucial, Galbrod? Interesting...
More evidence for the pure dispensation of the Solitary God's own Faith Power!
I just can't get myself to trust Kellhus' explanation to Achamian about the Psukhe in TTT. Though, Kellhus also uses witnessing as a chief metaphor in the Imprompta sessions in TWP. And it fits with the watcher/watched circuit...
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Yeah - Even though I have no well-formulated theory going at the moment, I have been wondering about the No-God's lack of sight-perception and how it could relate to the Cishaurim's blinding so as to better perceive the Solitary God.
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Except its mostly working as the opposite effect that all the other blind men in Earwa have. Where the no-god is blind and cannot see, all the other blind folks seem to have profound sight :P.
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No-god is BBT personified in Earwa?
Whereas Fane/Psukhe is the 'awakened' who percieves via God?
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No-god is BBT personified in Earwa?
Whereas Fane/Psukhe is the 'awakened' who percieves via God?
Yeah - Maybe...something like that.
The NG doesn't know what it doesn't know, it would seem. It's blind to what it's blind about.
I'm going to look like such a fool when it turns out that Fane was dead wrong. I've been harping on this too much for karma not to come back.
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I've been pitching the Cishaurim as morally upright for awhile too, Trisk. Both digging that grave.
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I've been pitching the Cishaurim as morally upright for awhile too, Trisk. Both digging that grave.
Yeah - Another factor for me is how we've learned as the AE trilogy has gone on just how much Bakker has used the layers of revelation technique. So after PoN it would have been easy to dismiss the Cishaurim as the sorcery-priests who happened to be on the wrong side of Kellhus and nothing more. Nothing more to see here.
But now w/ Meppa back and the layers of revelation becoming even more clear it occurs to me that Bakker totally would do something like obscure their significance in the first series only to have them really matter down the stretch (in some way).
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I'm going to look like such a fool when it turns out that Fane was dead wrong. I've been harping on this too much for karma not to come back.
For what it is worth, Bakker has already hinted several times that Fane was wrong. The most notable examples are the homology between Inrithi theology, which makes the Hundred "aspects" of the God, and the Dunyainic concept of the Legion of the soul, and the conversation between Maithanet and Esmenet (with Theliopa as well) during the skin spy interogation in TJE, in which Theli says that the Tractate describes the gods as opposing the will of the God in several passages. Fanim theology seems overly simplified in terms of what we know of Earwa; it's description of the solitary God reminds me of Akka's protestation to Cnauir that "My soul is my own! I stand apart!". We all know how true that turned out to be.
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I'm going to look like such a fool when it turns out that Fane was dead wrong. I've been harping on this too much for karma not to come back.
For what it is worth, Bakker has already hinted several times that Fane was wrong. The most notable examples are the homology between Inrithi theology, which makes the Hundred "aspects" of the God, and the Dunyainic concept of the Legion of the soul, and the conversation between Maithanet and Esmenet (with Theliopa as well) during the skin spy interogation in TJE, in which Theli says that the Tractate describes the gods as opposing the will of the God in several passages. Fanim theology seems overly simplified in terms of what we know of Earwa; it's description of the solitary God reminds me of Akka's protestation to Cnauir that "My soul is my own! I stand apart!". We all know how true that turned out to be.
I'm not following the logic of your post. I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that I don't get it. We know that there are aspects the God in the form of the Hundred, and we know that the Dunyain conceive of the Legion within our souls that they have to war with. We also know what Kellhus tells the Nonman emissary that when he went to the Outside he saw the God splintered into a million pieces. I don't think that any of this says who is right and wrong about who is damned and who is not.
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But the Cish say that the solitary god is distinct, Trisk. The Hundred are demons in their theology, not aspects (that is Inri's doctrine).
So if Fane was right, then these things you claim we know are wrong.
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I'm not following the logic of your post. I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that I don't get it. We know that there are aspects the God in the form of the Hundred, and we know that the Dunyain conceive of the Legion within our souls that they have to war with. We also know what Kellhus tells the Nonman emissary that when he went to the Outside he saw the God splintered into a million pieces. I don't think that any of this says who is right and wrong about who is damned and who is not.
I'm not saying that the parallels are demonstrative, just that they are present and evocative: every Man has a Legion, and the God is "the million-souled" per Inri Sejenus. It isn't a straight assertion on Bakker's part, but it seems suggestive to me, esp. given that Fane denies that the Hundred are part of the God at all, hence the title "Solitary God". If the Hundred are aspects of the God and not demons, Fane was wrong about at least one thing. I doubt, however, that Scott will ever tell us right out which religion is right.
Of course, it has yet to be seen that one of the ways to be damned is to follow an incorrect religious tradition with a clean and sincere conscience, however misinformed. It's a ways, I think, between mistakenly failing to honor Gilgaol and Onkis because you are from a Fanim tribe and having your rape face always on like Galian.
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Of course, it has yet to be seen that one of the ways to be damned is to follow an incorrect religious tradition with a clean and sincere conscience, however misinformed.
Bakker has pretty much confirmed this to be the case. In an interveiw about TUC he said something about how whole nations are damned?
I'm sure someone here can supply the link :p I'll try and find it for you later.
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Of course, it has yet to be seen that one of the ways to be damned is to follow an incorrect religious tradition with a clean and sincere conscience, however misinformed.
Bakker has pretty much confirmed this to be the case. In an interveiw about TUC he said something about how whole nations are damned?
I'm sure someone here can supply the link :p I'll try and find it for you later.
No sweat bro: Here you go (http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html)
I agree that your take on the situation of ethnic damnation is the most likely interpretation, I just don't want it to be true because it is very retarded. Bakker has generally been respectful of religion above and beyond anything else I have seen in fantasy/scifi for a long time and I don't want such a simplistic and silly idea to sully his track record.
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I see what you're saying, Curethan. I was equating "aspects of the God" with "demons." I think it's clear that the Hundred (or some of them) exist, and the only question is what they are.
I also think that Bakker would love to have the Crusaders (Inrithi) turn out to have committed all of their atrocities in a false belief.
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@Charamemas; I don't think it is as straightforward as it would seem either way.
I tend to look at the clues provided by Mimarra and Inrau about forgiveness and understanding being paths to redemption.
Whole nations might be damned - but individuals like the skin-eaters can be forgiven?
Following a religious path with a clean conscience is kind of what the inchies are all about, yes? I don't think that is enough.
Psatma claims dedicating yourself to Yatwer is enough to prevent damanation - but is her compensatory reward just another flavour of hell?
Gilgaol's subreality suggests something far removed from traditional veiws of heaven.
Onkis provides a more interesting example - what might a soul claimed by her experience?
We have no clues about the Fanim afterlife... are they aiming for oblivion, the spaces between the gods... or is the solitary god a less rambunctious version of the hundred, collecting souls for the aggregated experiences they hold?
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I agree that your take on the situation of ethnic damnation is the most likely interpretation, I just don't want it to be true because it is very retarded. Bakker has generally been respectful of religion above and beyond anything else I have seen in fantasy/scifi for a long time and I don't want such a simplistic and silly idea to sully his track record.
I'm not sure why "one religion getting it right" is simplistic or disrespectful of religion. It would actually be somewhat refreshing and disconcerting because we would have to face a representation of the reality that every religion here on earth believes: "I" am the keeper of the one true faith. The consequences of that belief--shared by every religion--are dire, much worse than any atrocity in the history of mankind. If there is an afterlife, and if there is a 'one right belief' and if everyone not part of that belief is damned you are condemning trillions of beings to everlasting torment.
Following a religious path with a clean conscience is kind of what the inchies are all about, yes? I don't think that is enough.
Psatma claims dedicating yourself to Yatwer is enough to prevent damanation - but is her compensatory reward just another flavour of hell?
And speaking of simplistic, if this is so, then Bakker is taking CS Lewis religious philosophy from The Last Battle (Aslan tells a muslim-stand-in that he's saved because although he worshipped a false idol, he worshipped it faithfully and faithfulness is an attribute his false idol shuns but Aslan gets, so because he was a good person and his worship was misdirected his good personness redirected all his worship to the one true god/faith of Aslan). And if Bakker were doing that I would be very let down--hell, I was let down and metaphysically confounded by that when I read it and was nine years old, it seemed to conflict with all the teachings of church and the bible and struck me as very wishy washy new-agey (my church was vocally against teddy bear, cuddly Christianity and Aslan's pronouncements in the book struck me as exactly that).
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lol @ your description of your church. mostly because all classic religions that i know anything about were never cuddly to begin with :P.
but regarding the topic at hand, I'd have to say it would be more Bakker-y to go with the condemnation of millions for little to no reason whatsoever, rather than a more 'everybody wins' kind of thing. And I don't think this is him taking an easy way out.
Its rather difficult to wrap your head around 'holy shit what if the Church of the Third Resurrection is right and everyone else in all of history is going to hell'. As opposed too, say, 'hey you were wrong, but come into heaven any way'.
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lol @ your description of your church. mostly because all classic religions that i know anything about were never cuddly to begin with :P.
but regarding the topic at hand, I'd have to say it would be more Bakker-y to go with the condemnation of millions for little to no reason whatsoever, rather than a more 'everybody wins' kind of thing. And I don't think this is him taking an easy way out.
Its rather difficult to wrap your head around 'holy shit what if the Church of the Third Resurrection is right and everyone else in all of history is going to hell'. As opposed too, say, 'hey you were wrong, but come into heaven any way'.
Yeah - I think we're almost certain to learn that some people are damned, some are not, and the reasons why may be quite arbitrary.
Unless someone rewrites the rules (like Kellhus) or someone negates the rules (like the Consult shutting off the world).
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yeah that is defiantly another thing to consider. after all didnt some guy let a bunch of people into heaven like 2000 years ago? That fellow did some rewriting IIRC.
I'm not saying the consult/kellhus are saviors, but they could certainly do something to change some metaphysical things around.
Maybe Kellhus really does think he can save the sorcerers from damnation.
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I see what you're saying, Curethan. I was equating "aspects of the God" with "demons." I think it's clear that the Hundred (or some of them) exist, and the only question is what they are.
I also think that Bakker would love to have the Crusaders (Inrithi) turn out to have committed all of their atrocities in a false belief.
Pretty much what convinced me of the righteousness of the Cishaurim's interpretation because the inversion of the first series would be so interesting.
Charamemas, you're thoughts move me to wonder... I'll have to get back to this thread. I do think we're hitting upon heirarchy and some of the reflections real-life Gnosticism kicking around - Solitary God is like Burn in Malazan, God of Gods is the Demon and the Hundred are its aspects.
Nations being damned does imply that there is a "correct" metaphysical order. If anything, that this might bother some of us, is probably indication that Bakker is going to explore that painful possibility. He's suggested any number of times that he intends to confront the reader with uncomfortable issues - we're just the Mengaecca, I guess, in this context ;).
Edit:
"Then, as sunlight breached the clouds, the rays revealing the hoary Wall of the Dead over the mouth of the River Sursa as it spilled into the Neleost, the Ordeal turned, not to the East.
But to the West... Where it seemed a nation walked...
Bearing long poles, mounted with simulacra of a Carapace..."
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But wouldn't the greatest inversion of all be the Consult being 'correct', and all people damned? Fighting, as it were, for the right to their own damnation. Winning nothing but endless pain and suffering as retribution for their (un)Holy calling.
Madness what is that quote?
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Lol, made it up right now ;). Just riffing off our speculations here and off what might happen at the end of TUC, in line with suggesting nations could be damned.
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I figured as much, but I have seen some quotes laying around that are from odd sources that I've not read. Could have been the end of the first Ordeal. History repeats.
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If you ever want help pinpointing the text on those, let me know.
I usually mark my quotes with numbers.
I have some serious impressions that the fifth Tribe remaining beyond the mountains has a whole Inchoroi, Consult, worship culture going on.
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I have some serious impressions that the fifth Tribe remaining beyond the mountains has a whole Inchoroi, Consult, worship culture going on.
But isn't it suggested that the Inchoroi incited the other four tribes to migrate into Eärwa to exterminate the Nonmen? It would seem strange for the one tribe that actually worshipped the Inchoroi to be the one that wasn't successfully manipulated into invading.
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Scylvendi anyone? Lokung IS Mog.
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I have some serious impressions that the fifth Tribe remaining beyond the mountains has a whole Inchoroi, Consult, worship culture going on.
But isn't it suggested that the Inchoroi incited the other four tribes to migrate into Eärwa to exterminate the Nonmen? It would seem strange for the one tribe that actually worshipped the Inchoroi to be the one that wasn't successfully manipulated into invading.
They were all manipulated quite successfully. It doesn't seem outlandish to suggest that the Inchoroi convinced one of the tribes to hang back, just in case. Wouldn't want to destroy ALL of your new followers, now would we? Perhaps their population is under very strict control, like having exactly 144,000 members.
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Also, having a isolated population is great for Inchoroi/Consult research and originally at a time when the Inchoroi operated in greater, active numbers. We know that the Inchoroi are remembered as of the Hundred (though we know not which ones) so it'd be impressive to see what humans might have done with a genesis of belief that might have fully reflected Inchoroi inspiration, rather than having any Kiunnat ties - after all, the Xiuhanni bear no religious artifact we know of and those religious beliefs they had in common with the Four Tribes left with the Tusk...
The covers of AE - at least the Canadian covers - reflect the religious paraphernalia of the times. TJE has both sides of the single Tusk. WLW has the Circumfix. My guess for TUC is either the Twin Scimitars of Fane or, otherwise, something Consult related or as of yet unknown... Eanna...
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New X's.
Meppa is Maithanet's brother.
- Like Inralautis, but trained in the Psukhe then lobotimised.
Meppa is Inrau.
- Survived his fall but lost his memory. Wandered around being mad and holy until the real last Cish found him and trained him up. Kinda like a noir karate kid.
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Meppa is Inrau.
- Survived his fall but lost his memory. Wandered around being mad and holy until the real last Cish found him and trained him up. Kinda like a noir karate kid.
There was a lot of smoking recently, wasn't there :) I love the idea though.
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Inrau (lockesnow, p1) and Maithanet's Brother (p5) ;).
EDIT: You know, there is a Cu'jara Cinmoi quote about Maithanet's skin and how Bakker had this whole backstory about Moenghus intermittently sunning Maithanet in the Desert to make him look Keytai, but then he decided to just leave it to the readers ambiguity. This a fitting return of the thought - gives credence to either Moenghus the Elder or Second Son theories.
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Clearly they were good ideas then!
Yes, I remember that skin thingy.
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Indeed. +1.
So... I'd really be down to read TUC, like, today ;).
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I think I've suggested the first, and wish I'd suggested the second, I've speculated that Inrau will reappear.
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Lol, you suggested both. p1 & p5 :).
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You know, there is a Cu'jara Cinmoi quote about Maithanet's skin and how Bakker had this whole backstory about Moenghus intermittently sunning Maithanet in the Desert to make him look Keytai, but then he decided to just leave it to the readers ambiguity.
I think it was to make him look older, rather than to make him look Ketyai:
Maithanet is in his late twenties. Clues to his youth are sprinkled here and there.
I actually had a rationale for this (Moenghus subjecting him to continuous desert sunlight to prematurely age his skin), but I couldn't find anyplace to insert it where it didn't feel potted, so I decided to just leave it indeterminate.
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Good call. Was Maithanet assumed to be Norsirai then? Is there no racial limitation on Shriah, like High Heresiarch?
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Good call. Was Maithanet assumed to be Norsirai then? Is there no racial limitation on Shriah, like High Heresiarch?
In WLW, Esmenet wonders what dye he uses to "conceal the Norsirai blond."
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Good call. Was Maithanet assumed to be Norsirai then? Is there no racial limitation on Shriah, like High Heresiarch?
Kalstone got it first. There's definite mention of Maithanet dying his hair and beard (and, IIRC, they're described as black and oiled in the PoN books). I don't recall any mention of his skin, but the impression I've always had is that there's been enough interbreeding between Norsirai and Ketyai in the Three Seas that there are Ketyai with lighter skin than the 'norm'* and that a Norsirai with a suntan could easily pass as Ketyai with a convincing dye job.
* - ETA: Isn't Esme described as olive-skinned in PoN?
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When I ever have some bulk free time, I'll get around to posting my Almanac - Ch. 12. Cnaiur tells Kellhus that Moenghus' eyes are almost pale enough to pass for Scylvendi? How does this relate to Ketyai?
So far we have Meppa is:
1. Xinemus
2. Inrau
3. Cnaiur
4. Moenghus the Elder
5. Meppa, Cishaurim, Second Son of Moenghus
6. One of the Three missing of the Nine Incandanti
7. One of Moenghus' Sect of the Cishaurim
8. Neuropunctured Metapsukhari
9. Titirga
10. Skin-Spy
11. Reincarnation of Fane
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* - ETA: Isn't Esme described as olive-skinned in PoN?
Olive skinned, isn't only one of the five original tribes associated with olive skin? That could be rather important if true.
Reincarnate of Fane is an interesting thought but I'm not sure what the metaphysical consequences of that would be. Maybe Yatwer and the True God will hash it out with their avatars before they even get to Kellhus (WLW and Meppa).
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Thanks for putting that list together.
I suppose not everything on there is mutually exclusive. For example, it seems conceivable that #'s 5, 6, and 7 could all be true at the same time.
Question: How did you figure that three of the nine Incandati were missing? I do recall that it's stated that there are nine of them in TTT.
Random thought: any coincidence whatsoever or significance w/ the number nine possibly in relation to the nine black riders in Tolkien? Probably not, but hey...
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Cnaiur tells Kellhus that Moenghus' eyes are almost pale enough to pass for Scylvendi? How does this relate to Ketyai?
Maithanet's eyes are definitely blue. Achamian notices this in tDtCB when Maitha helpfully advises him to F off before he has a nasty mob-related accident right after Proyas recognises him in the crowd at the declaration of the Holy War.
Most Ketyai (including Esme) seem to be brown-eyed.
Olive skinned, isn't only one of the five original tribes associated with olive skin? That could be rather important if true.
I haven't yet been able to find a supporting quote for "olive-skinned". Her leg is described as "pale" (relative to the brick walls of her tenement) when she's hanging it out of her window in tDtCB, which leads me to think she's at least a bit lighter-skinned than the average Ketyai.
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8. Neuropunctured Metapsukhari
A What?
By the way.
You must assign a power level then, since we know Akka is 9.000.
You cannot just make cool sounding new uber-power wizards without the Power Level to comprehend. Thats awful.
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Trisk, I'm just speculating from one of Eleazaras's in TTT (and I should have said four):
"The Scarlet Spires knew of the Nine Incandati, those Primaries whose backs could bear the most Water, but they had no inkling as to their true strength. Now the greatest of the Psukari assailed them: Seokti, Inkorot, Hab'hara, Fanfarokar, Sartmandri... and they could not cope" (p455).
I mean, if you're going to gratuitously list names, why not all nine? Where are the other four?
Lol, coobek - I'm never handy with number analogies, my eyes kind of glaze when they come up. The Dunyain practice some kind of rudimentary brain control with Neuropuncture. We've seen it arise in the Unmasking Room. In Kellhus' torture pyramid in the Andiamine Heights. So there've been theories that Moenghus creates a better Cishaurim with it... The Metapsukhe is also kind of a joke - everything's meta after WLW ;).
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Trisk, I'm just speculating from one of Eleazaras's in TTT (and I should have said four):
Lol, coobek - I'm never handy with number analogies, my eyes kind of glaze when they come up. The Dunyain practice some kind of rudimentary brain control with Neuropuncture. We've seen it arise in the Unmasking Room. In Kellhus' torture pyramid in the Andiamine Heights. So there've been theories that Moenghus creates a better Cishaurim with it... The Metapsukhe is also kind of a joke - everything's meta after WLW ;).
Yeah - Perhaps if one's mind isn't crowded out by the recollection of their own identity they can even better recollect the God's voice.
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but first you must have intellect, and then remove the identity. or could you raise a child who's had their identity neuropathed away and given all the intellect and education of a normal child. Does consciousness exist in a person with intellect but no identity?
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Well, memory... very likely has something to do with it.
It's been theorized before, probably by either of you, Trisk or lockesnow (where the hell has sciborg2 disappeared to these days?), that stripping someone of their personal memory might allow for a better recollection of the God's Passion or some such.
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8. Neuropunctured Metapsukhari
A What?
By the way.
You must assign a power level then, since we know Akka is 9.000.
You cannot just make cool sounding new uber-power wizards without the Power Level to comprehend. Thats awful.
Bah sure you can. Its just we are now post Freza saga and power level is just something arbitrary that is felt but no longer ever defined.
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The Metapsukhe is also kind of a joke - everything's meta after WLW ;).
I know.
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+1. Just offering exposition :).
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Meppa is a secret Dunyain who escaped Kellhus' destruction of Ishual and whose task is to stop Kellhus via the shortest path which is determined to be becoming to the Fanim what Kellhus became to the Inrithi. Or not.
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or not
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Or not. Really, though, I'm expecting the Meppa reveal to be one of the more significant game-changers in TUC. He seems too far removed right now to be a major player, and it will make his identity all the more shocking.
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Or not. Really, though, I'm expecting the Meppa reveal to be one of the more significant game-changers in TUC. He seems too far removed right now to be a major player, and it will make his identity all the more shocking.
That is my stance and has been. There's the school of thought that Meppa is just a stray Incandati or something. I fully admit that we don't have a ton of material from WLW on Meppa, but I have to believe that he is significant in a big way, as I've said. It's not like Bakker up and decided "I MISS WATER!!" Something significant is happening. The Last Cishaurim makes a bandit's raid on the heart of the New Empire possible. TLC (Meppa's new name) fucking murdered an anagogic fool. The SS were way wrong. The Primaries/Incandati can crush anagogs. Only the Gnosis matters.
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+1 TLC Game-Changer.
Makes me think Moenghus the Elder again... Preaching against his son's legitimacy in Momemn. Though I do find the Second Son and Neuropunctured Metapsukari elegant.
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12. Meppa is Seswatha.
- Reborn or time-traveling. Cuz Celmomas said he would be there at the end.
13. Meppa is Inri Sejenus.
- Been hanging with the God of Gods (actually the Solitary God) at the Nail of Heaven. Sent back down to sort shit out in the Three Seas in preparation for the Ordeal's failure.
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Yeah i always feel Uncle Holy's last words should have finished with a plural, Tell my brothers.
I guess cause Inri brought up the idea of siblings and Maitha pause, although i feel i'm getting led down that road a bit too obviously.
I'm also believing in Moe the Elder having influence either by the continuation of a plan he set in place or actually as an agent, either outside or inside.
The reason i mostly believe this is when Kell and Moe meet. The place is described as having immense flows of water which seems weird since Kellhus is going on about how weak he is in the Water, while water is actually around him in great power.
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+1 for Nerdanel, Curethan.
Big +1 from me, themerchant! Go team MtE!
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12. Meppa is Seswatha.
- Reborn or time-traveling. Cuz Celmomas said he would be there at the end.
13. Meppa is Inri Sejenus.
- Been hanging with the God of Gods (actually the Solitary God) at the Nail of Heaven. Sent back down to sort shit out in the Three Seas in preparation for the Ordeal's failure.
Wow just Wow.
And then BIG WOW!!!
Curethan stop doing this as Bakker probably is deleting 100 pages of the book where Meppa is Inri Sejenus! And writting anew as him being just Meppa.
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My theory is that Meppa is/was just some random Cish. It's his serpent that's important. Was it ever explained just why Moe "had not [his] eyes with [him]" in his encounter with Kellhus? Maybe Moe shunted his soul off into his snake and then sent it out to find a new host?
In other words, we're back to "Meppa is Moe", except not physically, which is why they don't look alike (and also might explain why Meppa is a Primary - Moe is using the emotional parts of Meppa's original Cish soul to carry the Water for him while he provides the Dunyain intellect via the serpent).
I really want to see Kellhus having a conversation with a snake and calling it "Father". :P
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Moe's snakes are in the walls at first.
They come out when Khellus shivs him, and are on his person when Cnaiur rolls his chorae on Moe's face.
But yeh;
14. Meppa is Moe-senior's snake.
and
15. Meppa is Ajencis.
- lost his eyes when particularly deep thoughts BLEW HIS MIND and shot his eyeballs and his body in opposite directions through TIME ITSELF.
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15. Meppa is Ajencis.
- lost his eyes when particularly deep thoughts BLEW HIS MIND and shot his eyeballs and his body in opposite directions through TIME ITSELF.
Buhahahah. I spat the coffee on my screen... almost. You shan't do it if you are a part of Financial Department.
+1 Curethan :mrgreen:
Seriously though I cannot think now of Meppa as simply Meppa but only in terms of Meppa is X. Thats his new name, for my brain at least.
I would be seriously dissapointed if he would be just one off guy just to show why the padirajah was able to hold his own and will be killed defendng his master against Esmi's lackeys.
Flow Water, Go Meppa...is X.
16. Meppa will be inventor and investor in cheap plumbing - transforrming the now medieval, disease ridden cities, into 18th century metropolis. Thus effectively negating the Sranc upper hand in terms of numbers. Flow Water...
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Hehe;
Meppa is Mario!
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Moe's snakes are in the walls at first.
They come out when Khellus shivs him, and are on his person when Cnaiur rolls his chorae on Moe's face.
But yeh;
14. Meppa is Moe-senior's snake.
and
15. Meppa is Ajencis.
- lost his eyes when particularly deep thoughts BLEW HIS MIND and shot his eyeballs and his body in opposite directions through TIME ITSELF.
:lol: fucking brilliant.
And Moe's snake is something I find at least possible.
(Mind transfer jutsu, Moe is part of the Yamanaka clan... would have pegged him as a Nara but whatever.)
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14. Meppa is Moe-senior's snake.
My suggestion was actually that Moe Sr is Meppa's snake... :)
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I know Duskweaver, just trying to shoehorn it into the format. ;)
how 'bout;
14. Meppa is Moe-senior's snake's stooge.
?
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"Meppa is an ordinary Cishaurim whose snake is Moe-senior"
Still quite wordy, though :lol:
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Better. :)
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For the sake of senseless crackpot theories:
...
Meppa is Sos-Praniura, best student of Gin'yursis, kept himself alive through various means...
(possibly Meppa's weird metal ring/blindfold acts in the same way as Shae's ring of ten people keeping the soul from the outside???)
Plagued with angst over what his school had become/birthed (Shaeonara/Consult/No-God) and going into hiding, he began masquerading as a Shrial Priest, then becoming Fane, then teaching his new non-gnostic sorcery to the Kianene. Then he wiped his own mind for more passion.
YMMV
Actually I can probably debunk this sleep deprived crackpot right now:
The fact that Fane is Nansur (I think?) and also that Mangaecca/Sohonc etc were all Norsirai I assume then he'd have to be pretty impressive in the makeup department to go from Norsirai to Nansur to nut-brown (although he could've got a serious tan in the desert as Fane...).
Pointless post.
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Pointless post.
Not at all. I like this theory -- the details that you've offered are quite specific, true, but the initial concept itself I enjoy.
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Did you peruse the thread at all, AimmarCair ;)? No hypothesis is too far gone.
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There was something I mentioned on another thread that I thought I ought to mention here.
I don't recall that we've really pointed out Fanayal's line about "The people say he was sent by the Solitary God." Then Malo asks him what he thinks, and Fanayal says something like "I say that he was sent to me."
I think that this strongly implies (but doesn't prove) that Meppa was not some regular Cishaurim who survived Shimeh. Those lines suggest to me that the Fanim civilization probably believed the Cishaurim to have been completely wiped out after Shimeh before Meppa miraculously (in their eyes at least) showed up.
If that is the case (again, not proven), it seems to suggest that a lot of our crackpottery has newfound virtue (or so I tell myself). I think it ups the odds that he's either a previous character, the result of Dunyain machinations (maybe Moe, maybe Kellhus), or some metaphysical or revelatory something or other (reincarnation, new discovery of Water and what it means), etc...
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+1 - I'm starting to think spontaneous reemergence of the Psukhe is likely too; goddamn, do I want it to be Moenghus the Elder though ;).
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One of the pro-science/anti-religion arguments one often hears is that if all references to a particular religion were wiped out, then an attempt to recreate that religion would result in a vastly different product, whereas with science, the same laws and principles would be derived anew.
The rediscovery of the Psukhe has some profound implications to the "correctness" of the art. If the Psukhe was indeed wiped out and then rediscovered (and so quickly!) in its same form, then supporters of the "Fane / Psukhe is right" crowd may be in for a treat. The Gnostic schools needed the wisdom of the nonmen for their art, and the Anagogis is yet another step behind original concepts. Could humans re-derive the Gnosis and Anagogis in their pure form if need be? Could the nonmen even do it?
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A Nerdanel to warp your perception:
Meppa is the little boy from the end of TTT, Consult-Cishaurim, their attempt to reverse-engineer the craft that had so perplexed them until the coming of the Dunyain...
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So, Meppa's name came up in PON (I think it was TTT), in reference to a specific cant known to the Cishaurim. It was called "the Meppa Cataract" and was mentioned (only once) as being used by the Cish as one of their dispensations of water. I don't think that was a coincidence. Following on from that, he had to have been established as someone important/powerful in the Tribe of Water. Assuming Meppa is, indeed, the one for whom the Cataract was named, his identity was unknown to the Schools outside of Fanim lands. He was never mentioned by the Scarlet Spires as one of the Primaries of the Cish. I suspect he is another son of Moenghus, though as to what his role is within the confines of the Thousandfold Thought is obviously still a mystery. Moe likes those names that begin with 'M', though... Moenghus, Mallahet, Maithanet... Meppa?
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There's also mention of a Meppa River, if I remember correctly? [Honestly, probably in this thread. Going to look.] [There is not and I remember where that was mentioned. In any case, retracted. The argument was that if the Scarlet Spires cast by analogy than maybe Meppa is a river.]
Meppa as the innovator of the Meppa Cataract is interesting, though.
My issue, specifically, is that Fanayal doesn't know who Meppa is... in that, I don't see how Meppa could have been one of the Primaries during Fanayal and Kascamandri's reigns as Padirajah.
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There's also mention of a Meppa River, if I remember correctly? [Honestly, probably in this thread. Going to look.] [There is not and I remember where that was mentioned. In any case, retracted. The argument was that if the Scarlet Spires cast by analogy than maybe Meppa is a river.]
Meppa as the innovator of the Meppa Cataract is interesting, though.
My issue, specifically, is that Fanayal doesn't know who Meppa is... in that, I don't see how Meppa could have been one of the Primaries during Fanayal and Kascamandri's reigns as Padirajah.
Meppa may have been Kascamandri's ace-in-the-hole, and the sudden death of the later resulted in this ignorance on Fanayal's part. Meppa may have found it prudent to keep the details of his role in the grand scheme a secret for now.
The Cishaurim cant seemingly named after Meppa is an interesting detail, for sure.
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I suspect he is another son of Moenghus, though as to what his role is within the confines of the Thousandfold Thought is obviously still a mystery. Moe likes those names that begin with 'M', though... Moenghus, Mallahet, Maithanet... Meppa?
I find it hard to believe that its a coincidence. I suppose it is possible that our 'Meppa' could remember little about his own past, so he chose a famous name from the Cishaurim past.
Also, I have a brief nerdanel on the topic of Moe's kids. I call "The Six Scions of Moenghus" theory (or alternately, with less alliteration, "the six children of Moe"), which is located at this topic: The Maithanet-Inrilatas Conversation (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=432.0)
The relevant post is about half way down the first page but I'll repost it here to save you the trouble:
This was something of a curiosity. Reading carefully (or with bias i guess) it can be seen that much more is going on than what was actually said. What was said and what was read :P
"How many children did grandfather sire?"
"Six," ...
"Were any of them like me?"
A fraction of a heartbeat.
"I have no way of knowing. He drowned them at the first sign of peculiarities."
"And you were the only one that expressed ... balance?"
"I was the only one."
At first glance, not much here. Six kids, drowned all of them cuz they where crazy. Right? Wrong! (mostly crackpot):
The six children of Moenghus. First son was Kellhus which I think most people over looked, and another was Maithanet. That leaves us with 4. I think the remaining children that he "sired" are the 4 that lived. The ones that remained un-drowned.
Look: "were any of them like me?" ... "He drowned them at the first sign of peculiarities."
If Maithanet and the other 4 never expressed signs of peculiarities, then they wouldn't have been drowned. The statement remains truth. Daddy Moe did drown all the crazies. But are those considered true sons? Or just something ... other ... something not quite human. Something not to be counted as among your tribe. A scylivendi woman who gives birth to a white child has not born a true son. Not a true kinsmen. Just something other to be discarded. So the 6 children of Moenghus are the those that remain alive.
Ah, but you say, the last two lines disprove this. He was the only one that expressed balance.
Nay I tell you. Look closer!
"And you were the only one that expressed ... balance?"
"I was the only one."
First of all, balance is not what condemned the children, it was peculiarities. Balance has been substituted here, and this may have allowed Maithanet to lie with truth. None of the remaining children where peculiar, thus left alive, but maybe none of them were balanced. Maybe they excelled in certain fields more than others. A schoolman is not balanced in the ways of combat. The sons or daughters of Moenghus may have been specialized in certain fields, while Maitha could see sorcery, could wield a sword, could speak with a silver tongue. Maybe the most balanced, but not the only one that lived.
The remaining 5 sons of Moenghus walk.
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Do we actually know for a fact Meppa is blind? Has anyone seen empty pits behind that headpiece?
Could it be enough to be blind in any sense to grasp the Psukhe as the Cishaurum do? You would think some would have tried it by now, but the Schools can get a little...weird sometimes. They don't usually cover their eyes, right?
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We don't, Wic, and we haven't.
The worry with Iyokus is that seeing as the Few is synonymous with being the Few... which isn't strictly true, obviously, as he still retains the capacity to work the Daimos and Cishaurim exist. I suppose Schoolmen in the past didn't want to risk losing their abilities.
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And as our late Moenghus found, the psuke demands so much more than being blind. Though he did say he could see some of their "third sight".
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So says Moenghus the Elder...
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So says Moenghus the Elder...
stop it :P
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I am compelled... Can't stop, won't stop.
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I am compelled... Can't stop, won't stop.
gotta make that booty drop...
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Latest blog post reveals Meppa's identity (accidentally) (http://youtu.be/oHg5SJYRHA0)
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Latest blog post reveals Meppa's identity (accidentally) (http://youtu.be/oHg5SJYRHA0)
It has been a while 8)
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right? I couldn't believe it when I saw it, sort of like how he offhandedly let slip that Mekeritrig was the nonman from the prologue!
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:-[
i'm sure hes disappointed in himself.
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I can't tell if this is a joke or not. When I click the link it takes me to YouTube, Rick Astley's "Never Gonna Give You Up." Now, I'm not much of a Rickroller, so I couldn't get through the whole video. Am I just not getting it, or...?
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*facepalm*
I had thought this unholy weapon destroyed.
gotta make that booty drop...
You may be the first person I've ever met to actually get that.
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So, it's possible that Meppa is using a Cish variation of the sorcery used to disguise one's appearance. Malo wouldn't be able to tell.
Just saying.
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*facepalm*
I had thought this unholy weapon destroyed.
gotta make that booty drop...
You may be the first person I've ever met to actually get that.
Welcome to my world.
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Rick is the Inverse Fire. It all makes sense now.
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Nah, that guy you called "Rick" is Meppa, worshipping the Inverse Fire with his glorious singing and dancing act. In the video, reflections from the IF can be seen very clearly, on the wall in the evening scenes.
As Scott's first attempt to simultaneously illustrate the terrific movie potential of the Second Apocalypse, give his fans a preview of TUC and clear up all these misconceptions about Meppa, I think it's overall very well executed. Maybe this particular scene is somewhat too spoilerific for some, even though it is very powerful.
Are those women Serwa and Theliopa btw?
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As Scott's first attempt to simultaneously illustrate the terrific movie potential of the Second Apocalypse, give his fans a preview of TUC and clear up all these misconceptions about Meppa, I think it's overall very well executed. Maybe this particular scene is somewhat too spoilerific for some, even though it is very powerful.
Concur. Big +1. I for am horrified by their unbroken gaze towards the Inverse Fire, which we see only reflected :o.
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So, Meppa's name came up in PON (I think it was TTT), in reference to a specific cant known to the Cishaurim. It was called "the Meppa Cataract" and was mentioned (only once) as being used by the Cish as one of their dispensations of water.
Re-read that part (for a now-postponed art thing), and the Meppa Cataract is actually referenced in amongst the cants of the Scarlet Spires. D'oh! As if it wasn't confusing enough already. Mea culpa.
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Apparently 'meppa' is latin for napkin, and is the origin of the word 'map' (as maps were usually drawn on scraps of cloth or paper).
I think that explains pretty much everything. Meppa clearly grew from one of Moe's discarded snot-rags and will lead the way to a new future for the survivors of TSA.
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Until someone makes a really convincing case I will stick with the simplest explanation - Meppa is a Tekne construct, grown in Golgotterath by Moe, Cnaiur and Shaeönanra from a severed Cishaurim phallus that Aurang found outside of Shimeh.
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Nailed it.
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Until someone makes a really convincing case I will stick with the simplest explanation - Meppa is a Tekne construct, grown in Golgotterath by Moe, Cnaiur and Shaeönanra from a severed Cishaurim phallus that Aurang found outside of Shimeh.
Nailed it.
lol
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Your redemption is more secured for this, Borque.
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Thank you! :)
Wrong thread, but what are those redemption/damnation points anyway? Can they be used for something?
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You topped me well, Borque.
It's just bling, I think. I was considering changing my username to Inralitas and asking people to heap damnation upon me though. :D
OT: Meppa is Kayutus - Kayutus with the ordeal is a fake - that's why he can't use sorcery or do other impressive dunyain stuff (like not seeming like an arrogant prig).
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Yeah, they're nothing, Borque, what Curethan said.
The whole +1 for posts/points was working so well on the last forum, when I saw the option for the karma, I thought it could be a fun feature - not sure I support it anymore now than I did then but mostly, it's been used to upvote people...
I don't know ;).
But a member got to me about the great idea of tying the damnation to post count and rename it the Mark so people can only upvote for Redemption but it probably isn't possible - note, I haven't checked it out yet. End of the semester and such.
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Has this one been wheeled out yet?
Meppa is the skin spy with a soul. It's been reprogrammed by Kellhus harness the meta-psukhe. When it remembers the gnosis it will explode and salt the whole city.
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Lol - #10 on the list I have a couple pages back.
Goes to lockesnow but he said Moenghus the Elder was the one manipulating it.
I like your twist.
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Ah, the atrocities are piled too high.
But the world remembers...
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I don't really have anything to add except to point out that we don't get (I don't think) any internal monologue from Meppa. I think this is significant, because an internal monologue would portray what a character 'really thinks.' I think that we can trust Kellhus to be accurately portraying himself to the reader in his internals in PON (he doesn't do it in AE) but for any character that we don't hear their thoughts--anything about their appearance could be deception.
WTF Meppa, he could be just about anything...maybe most of all a decoy. I wonder if Bakker has kept loads of Cisharim alive, but the reader is deflected from the possibility because 'Meppa is the last.' With old Moe having oodles of time before Kellhus arrives, I wonder if he swelled the ranks (making sure to keep the scarlet schoolman deceived of the numbers) so Moe can go on manipulating the world without leaving a mark.
More speculation: what if all of the cish who died in the holy war were just the ones that did not belong to moe's faction, so he controls the remainder; what if some of the cish went north to Ishual when the fanim and scylvendi warred; what if moe has figured out a way to be blind and yet appear to have eyes (the cish are everywhere--like xinemus, but they know how to 'look' like their eyes are opperative?
EDIT: breaking up the text
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I think worst of all Meppa might be unimportant because Cleric turned out to be Nil'giccas. But I'm very settled in Meppa, first being Moenghus the Elder, second being his Neuropunctured Cishaurim experiment.
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Second being his Neuropunctured Cishaurim experiment.
That's what i think as well, i also think the skin-spy with a soul is his , that's why Maith knew about it, and also knew where it's "off" button was. The actual thing itself is completely blind that it is serving Moe and not the Consult. God knows what happened to it, maybe it is Meppa.
I also think that Moe is dead but perhaps will live on in a seswatha type capacity. Perhaps imprinted in Meppa.
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I also think that Moe is dead but perhaps will live on in a seswatha type capacity. Perhaps imprinted in Meppa.
This.
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Neuropunctured Cishaurim experiment.
That's wonderful. Something else I'm wondering, whatever Meppa is, perhaps his role is to be tutor for Kelmomas in the third series. If old moe really is dead, if the dunyain are also gone, if kellhus dies/becomes enslaved to whatever, then who will save the world? What about Kelmomas? He's got his dad's intellect and his mom's passion, so he might be the greatest waterbearer evar! Assuming also that the psukhe is the special something that could undo the Consult.
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Assuming also that the psukhe is the special something that could undo the Consult.
That would be terribly ironic, especially since I don't think Moe Sr. counted on the Inrithi winning the war. His failure and Kellhus' own success causing the end of the world.
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What about Kelmomas? He's got his dad's intellect and his mom's passion, so he might be the greatest waterbearer evar! Assuming also that the psukhe is the special something that could undo the Consult.
I like it but I think we could lose some POVs/main characters in TUC. I think Meppa or Kelmomas could easily die. Though, I still think it would be awesome to see Meppa and the White-Luck Warrior go at it.
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I like it but I think we could lose some POVs/main characters in TUC. I think Meppa or Kelmomas could easily die. Though, I still think it would be awesome to see Meppa and the White-Luck Warrior go at it.
Any serious fight with the WLW would be pretty awesome. Also, I hope Meppa just floods entire battlefields and obliterates, single highhandedly, all of the Magi that were left to defend the Empire.
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I suspect Meppa is significantly more powerful than any other Cish we've seen , i believe it is described in text he has an "ocean" worth of water or words to that effect.
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Indeed. +1 themerchant.
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I suspect Meppa is significantly more powerful than any other Cish we've seen , i believe it is described in text he has an "ocean" worth of water or words to that effect.
Yeah, I agree. The quote comes from Ptsatma during one of their exchanges, so it comes from a god-possessed type who might be able to see such things. I suspect Meppa is Incandati-level at the very least and probably more.
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Whatever Meppa is, I can't shake the feeling that he might be just an awesome decoy. Bakker's got us following the white luck, sorweel, and meppa to throw us off the tracks?
Kayutas kills his dad when everyone else fails.
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That would be assumed because Cleric was Nil'giccas... but the Last Cishaurim, MG? Common'.
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Not at all convinced he is the last! Last one on the stage!
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Somewhat related to the topic, how old is Moenghus when he is exiled from Ishual?
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I believe roughly the same age as Kellhus when he gets the summons...
Text may or may not thirty... I don't have access to my books right now.
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Damn, thats what I thought. I was hoping he was older, but at 30 that makes him 60ish in PON, so he could easily still be alive in AE (if he somehow survived Cnaiur's chorae). The longevity of some people is frustrating.
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I believe roughly the same age as Kellhus when he gets the summons...
Text may or may not thirty... I don't have access to my books right now.
Second that. I don't have my books either, but I'm almost sure it's 30
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The longevity of some people is frustrating.
Yeah, all these octogenarians getting fucked up to stay alive really screw with the statistics ;).
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The longevity of some people is frustrating.
Yeah, all these octogenarians getting fucked up to stay alive really screw with the statistics ;).
Lol. Old Cnaiur emerges from the Ark, "I am the breaker of my own hips and teeth!"
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Sometimes I really do just not communicate to lace the metaphor.
I was riffing off the fact that our oldest surviving Players are: Aurang/Aurax/Mekeritrig(whichever came first), Shauriatas, Iyokus, Achamian... The former are alien/a thing of soul, the latter addicted to chanv (possible Inchoroi artifact), addicted to Qirri (possible Inchoroi artifact).
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My brain wants to discount all humans past the age of about 40 or 50. It just seems unreasonable to be actively participating in forced marches and world-scale battles. This just isn't the case, especially with Chanv and Qirri. Iyokus is well over 100 years old in AE isn't he?
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I believe we worked it out to 129 in TJE?
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Sometimes I really do just not communicate to lace the metaphor.
I was riffing off the fact that our oldest surviving Players are: Aurang/Aurax/Mekeritrig(whichever came first), Shauriatas, Iyokus, Achamian... The former are alien/a thing of soul, the latter addicted to chanv (possible Inchoroi artifact), addicted to Qirri (possible Inchoroi artifact).
Wonder if the erratic-memory thing happens to the Inchoroi/Mangaecca at all?
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Don't know where to put this:
Malowebi looking at Fanayal
"He wore a helm of shining gold, five spikes rising from the peak, and perhaps the finest coat of mail Malowebi had ever seen--a mesh of inhuman manufacture, he eventually decided."
WLW, p 121 US edition, couple pages into chapter 5
Nimil? Gift from Meppa?
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We were just discussing this in another thread somewhere...
EDIT: Lol - it comes up in The fate of Cnaiur (http://[url=http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=400.msg13736#msg13736) and goes on for a couple pages from Somnambulist comment.
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I see exactly what happened: I read Somnambulist's observation, waited a few days, then my brain relabeled it as my own. :P
A Fanayal and Nonman or Kellhus connection would be cool. Maybe Fanayal is just a Moe skin spy, he got the nimil on his first day at work.
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You've been incepted ;)
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Meppa is Manet. It is known.
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You've been incepted ;)
Do not get--like inception?
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Meppa is Manet. It is known.
Lol. +1.
You've been incepted ;)
Do not get--like inception?
Like inception :).
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Thinking about Meppa as a decoy to blind us from the presence of other Cishaurim-- ACishaurim spy: pop a couple of fake eyes in and carry a monkey on your shoulder. Or if you have the meta-psukhe, maybe you can just use everyone else's eyes and all the animals/bugs in the area or maybe it just works like the blind atreides.
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Can't remember if this has already been kicked around: Meppa a nonman Cishaurim? Someone (maybe old Moe) figured out how to remove/hide his mark, popped out his eyes? His physical appearance is a psukhe glamour or some such. Or maybe he's a new nonman, recently made (or remade) or a nonman with the Gift who was like frozen this whole time. The savoir of the the prophecy for nonmen?
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What? The Nonmen have a prophecy of a saviour? I don't think so.
It would be interesting to know the Nonman perspective on the Solitary god, or the Inrithi divided-god, though.
Monotheism seems to be a concept that arose well after the cultural interactions between Men and Nonmen ceased.