[MSJ]

I would like to re-read the whole series bearing in mind Ajoklis involvement. I think the circumfix can be seen as a point where Ajokli gets involved because shortly after Kellhus sees the halos on his hands and also "goes mad".

I won't claim that I knew Ajokli's ultimate role in the series. But, from the glossary, and the whole Kelmommas deal with the WLW, I was certain that Ajokli would have a "role" in TUC. Even if you go back through old threads, I postulated that Ajokli was working with Kellhus, or wanted him to succeed for some reason. I don't think it came out of nowhere, not at all.

ETA: Question. This has never made sense to me. Kelmommas kills Sorweel because the "Gods" couldn't see him, hence blinding Sorweel to Kel. But, how then, does Kel distract the WLW in TGO? Wouldn't the same apply? That since the WLW was chosen vessel of Yatwer, just like Sorweel, yet he is distracted by Kel. Makes no sense.

[SmilerLoki]

ETA: Question. This has never made sense to me. Kelmommas kills Sorweel because the "Gods" couldn't see him, hence blinding Sorweel to Kel. But, how then, does Kel distract the WLW in TGO? Wouldn't the same apply? That since the WLW was chosen vessel of Yatwer, just like Sorweel, yet he is distracted by Kel. Makes no sense.

As far as I understand, the WLW is "blind" to Kelmomas in the sense that Kelmomas doesn't exist in the tunneled past-to-future view of reality granted to the WLW by the Gods. Kelmomas isn't part of the certainty of timeline imposed on the WLW by the divine. On the other hand, the vessel of the WLW is still a normal human and can see Kelmomas (something similar happens when possessed Cnaiur sees the Carapace, but doesn't see the No-God). But the vessels only see Kelmomas as a human would, so they can be tricked, surprised, blindsided, etc.

[Wilshire]

I think that sums it up pretty well.
The WLW-visions  of the future (and past) don't have Kelmomas in it.

The WLW-present sees things as they actually happen through the eyes of a human.
I imagine it kind of like when you are surprised by something that's been in plain sight but your attention was focused elsewhere.

Probably very confusing for the WLW, since given the POVs we get I'm not sure they know what is past/present/future. Their existence/vision/POVs seem much to me like how I imagine the Gods exist - a fluid state of perceiving time all at once with no perceptible 'now' holding them in place.

If you think about the whole "No-God collapses subject and object", this fits pretty well. The past and the future are subjective - people predict things will turn out in different ways, and recall differently how past events happened. This would be especially true for something that sees all of time. Each time Kelmomas intervenes and interrupts the WLW, he collapses all possible pasts and futures, forcing the WLW to exist in the present.

[MSJ]

The WLW-present sees things as they actually happen through the eyes of a human.
I imagine it kind of like when you are surprised by something that's been in plain sight but your attention was focused elsewhere.

Right, I follow your guys line of thinking here. But, then why does Kel get all giggly and stuff in TUC after killing Sorweel, because they Gods can't see him??

My line of thinking was if he could surprise the WLW out the corner of his eye in a dark vaulted room, then why can't Sorweel see him at all when Kel stabs him?

ETA: remember Sorweel is transformed into the same being, the WLW, at the end. Same rules apply, didn't see him at all this time.

ETA: sorry, keep thinking on it. Maybe the proximity to the Carapace and time which he becomes the No-God plays a role. He literally a hour or so from being the No-God. Might that be why Sorweel circumstance is different?

[SmilerLoki]

My line of thinking was if he could surprise the WLW out the corner of his eye in a dark vaulted room, then why can't Sorweel see him at all when Kel stabs him?

The way I read it, Sorweel wasn't looking at Kelmomas, being all focused on Kellhus. Kelmomas was also hidden behind some people (at least intermittently hidden from Sorweel's point of view, Kelmomas even talked about Sorweel to an Ordealman), not standing right near his father (Kelmomas stood "some five paces" to Kellhus's left). Then Kelmomas moved so fast it just didn't register for Sorweel.

Also important is the fact that Sorweel was stabbed in his temple, so his brain was damaged in his last moments. It really is no wonder he didn't even understand what had happened.

[Wilshire]

The first WLW did see Kelmomas when he appeared. Remember, in the room both Kellhus and the WLW turned to him in surprise.

There's no distinction between that WLW and the Sorweel-WLW. As you said, they are essentially exactly the same. I think the WLW posses the ability to see Kelmomas, he just doesn't because his attention is elsewhere. I haven't read that scene in a while so I don't remember the exact circumstance.

The only issue with this idea is, wouldn't you know it, something Bakker said out of the text lol. Bakker spoke at ZDC, and I believe online, that he was having issues with his eyes, and he had developed a permanent blindspot. I've actually had this same experience a number of times, and its something else entirely to simply missing something that's in the room. Why I bring it up is because he said he started calling the blind spot "His little Kelmomas", which really really implies a much deeper blindness to Kelmomas in the books than a mere inattention. I'm not sure how to square this information with what we actually see in the book.

[TLEILAXU]

The way I see it a WLW cannot see Kelmomas. It is only after the WLW has been short circuited that the human left can see him.

[SmilerLoki]

The way I see it a WLW cannot see Kelmomas. It is only after the WLW has been short circuited that the human left can see him.

Hadn't the first WLW interacted with Kelmomas without being short-circuited before the end of TGO?

[TLEILAXU]

The way I see it a WLW cannot see Kelmomas. It is only after the WLW has been short circuited that the human left can see him.

Hadn't the first WLW interacted with Kelmomas without being short-circuited before the end of TGO?

I don't remember, I only remember Kelmomas spying on him.

[MSJ]

The way I see it a WLW cannot see Kelmomas. It is only after the WLW has been short circuited that the human left can see him.

But, isn't Kelmommas what short circuited the WLW? Kel's presence was unaccounted for because he's not in Yatwer's timeline. Yet, a pure vessel of Yatwer was short circuited by seeing something Yatwer couldn't have seen.

[Jabberwock03]

The way I read it, Kelmomas doesn't exist for the outside, it's like a rock or a tree. So Yatwer define the WLW path based on Kel not being here.
But when Kelmomas speak, the human vessel of the WLW can't ignore it, which is a contradiction with his perfect "timeless" path, and the connection is broken (imagine, you are walking on a road and a rock start talking to you!).

As for Sorwel, in my head, there is Kellhus with a line of guy kissing his knees in front of him. Sorwel is in that line focused on Kellhus. And Kelmomas is on the side watching the scene. For me the way it's described in the book (Kelmomas scrutinity of Sorwel), Sorwel just didn't looked at all at Kelmomas, he wasn't even in his field of view. And then he had a knife in his head before knowing what happens.

[SmilerLoki]

Hadn't the first WLW interacted with Kelmomas without being short-circuited before the end of TGO?

I don't remember, I only remember Kelmomas spying on him.

I also don't remember for sure, but I'm under the impression they did interact.

[Wilshire]

But, isn't Kelmommas what short circuited the WLW? Kel's presence was unaccounted for because he's not in Yatwer's timeline. Yet, a pure vessel of Yatwer was short circuited by seeing something Yatwer couldn't have seen.

The first WLW and Sorweel-WLW should behave identically, imo.
They were both normal men with normal lives until Yatwer made them her vessel.

Both of them, afaik, had no interaction with Kelmomas until the fateful moment. WLW-1 actually saw him once he interacted, WLW-Sorweel never saw him at all because once they were interacting he had a sword through his brain. Right?

[MSJ]

Yea, I mean I could be over thinking it. But, you would think he would see him approach or something. I did forget until now, that what made WLW-1 "see" Kelmommas was when he hollered. That is what caused the short circuit there.

[Jabberwock03]

Yea, I mean I could be over thinking it. But, you would think he would see him approach or something. I did forget until now, that what made WLW-1 "see" Kelmommas was when he hollered. That is what caused the short circuit there.

You mean Sorwel about Kelmomas?
If I remember correctly, it's said that the little shit is fast as fuck and kill him in a blink, ninja style.