Who (or what) created Eärwa?

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dragharrow

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« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2013, 10:12:58 pm »
Francis. Your gnostic skin for this is totally up my alley and in line with my vision. The gnostic concepts of the Demiurge and Absolute are exactly what I'm envisioning.

Also, you don't mention this but I think the gnostics do. In addition to being the sum of all things in whom we exist, but he also critically the prime mover. He is the stepping out of the void.

Well, here's the thing. I think Sejenus was indeed a prophet, but he was a prophet of the Hundred. His powers were divinely given (like the kind magic "magic" we see from Porsparian and Pstama). Why the god sent him, I do not know. Maybe to reinforce the faith, to keep it strong (and thus keep giving them souls).

Kellhus, however, is a savior of the Solitary God. He's a lie made truth, like what Moe says. Thus the Khahit, the World Conspires, all that stuff.

I agree with this 100%. This exactly.



That said,
While I see the hundred as essentially the Demiurge, I do not think they are bad or evil. They are the differentiators of meaning. Yes, I'd rather go to the solitary god, and he's of a greater order, but you can't really have a world without them. Division in the absolute is necessary for all the fun planetary conflict in life. I don't want to transcend yet.

He does by destroying the Demiurges (the Hundred) and shutting off the Outside, which cuts all the souls in the universe with it. The material universe essentially becomes a soulless, deterministic, disenchanted one -- one much more similar to our own. I also believe it's possible he will use the No-God to achieve this, possibly even by becoming the No-God himself, though I'm more uncertain of that aspect. Regardless, I think Kellhus truly is a "savior" of sorts, just the kind people might expect.

I strongly disagree that Kellhus will close the way to outside and make the world more deterministic and soulless. Why would he do that and how would that make him a savior? Despite their damnation and their cruelty and their arbitrariness, the hundred provide the intuitive meaning that makes life worth living. Without them it'd be the semantic apocalypse.

Without them we would no better than the Inchoroi!

That's where they came from. They're humans without the fundamentalist meaning of the hundreds. Without the hundred hedonism and power are all their is. Without the hundred our hungers would define us and we would become a race of lovers and flesh.

I totally agree with Kellhus as the avatar of the solitary god but he was sent here to stop the no-god. I think he's being honest when he says that the hundred just cannot see that they are aligned with him.

Triskele

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« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2013, 05:28:22 am »
I totally agree with Kellhus as the avatar of the solitary god but he was sent here to stop the no-god. I think he's being honest when he says that the hundred just cannot see that they are aligned with him.

Is there any chance then that Kellhus could reach The Hundred and convince them?

locke

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« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2013, 07:47:29 am »
all this devastatingly fascinating talk about demiurges and absolutes makes me want to interject this snarky little observation I once posted in the old forum:

If you accept God as the logos and the universe as the uttering of logos, world and word are very close to the same thing.

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« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2013, 11:12:02 am »
Well, here's the thing. I think Sejenus was indeed a prophet, but he was a prophet of the Hundred. His powers were divinely given (like the kind magic "magic" we see from Porsparian and Pstama). Why the god sent him, I do not know. Maybe to reinforce the faith, to keep it strong (and thus keep giving them souls).

Kellhus, however, is a savior of the Solitary God. He's a lie made truth, like what Moe says. Thus the Khahit, the World Conspires, all that stuff.

Just to clarify; there seems a consensus of worldviews' like this. But to me:

Kahiht (aside Curethan or lockesnow's assertions) is the resulting distinction of mundane social interaction. If there is anything supernatural to it, it'd be the "walking with the momentum of many souls" a la Swazond (whatever that actually affects), I think, not godly imbued powers.

The White-Luck Warrior is Hundred Ordained.

The Hundred each have their own goals but take their lead from Yatwer who is the strongest.

Ajokli stands apart from the Gods.

Anagke is either an instrument of the God of Gods, the Solitary God, or none of them and her own agent.

The World Conspires may or may not be a tool of Anagke's, the God of Gods, the Solitary God - it too may just be the resulting mundane distinction of the interaction of various social forces manifested by humans on mass, and how there is always someone to see fortune in circumstance.

The God of Gods is the sum of the Hundred. It is one where they are many. It may or may not have agency in the world.

The Solitary God is the Ground of All (as per the Gnostic allusions). The God of Gods may or may not reflect actual moral dissonance from the Solitary God (a la Fanim, Inrithi, or Gnostic allusions).

We have no evidence of either the God of Gods or the Solitary God?

Just thoughts - I'm interested in clarifying thoughts. Maybe a new thread?
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2013, 08:18:04 pm »
I have a lot to add to this, but not enough time, so I'll just talk about the Khahit thing:

In my mind, this concept is actually pretty simple, but it's tough to put into words. Basically it works likes this: The Bakkerverse is timeless, everything that was going to happen, was always going to happen, already happened, etc.

In addition, as dragharrow stated, the God (Absolute, Monad) is the prime mover. So here's what's going on: The God actually does speak to Kellhus, but Kelllhus is also insane. It's his insanity that's making him believe these things. But the God was/is the prime mover, the God make itself apparent in mundane things, because they were always going to happen. That's why I think Moe's line about a "lie made truth" is important. Kellhus is sort of falling into "saviorhood" without realizing it...until he realizes it. And goes insane. Which is one and the same with the god speaking to him. He was faking it up until the Umiaki.

So, like I've mentioned before, I don't think the God is (at this point in the story) some conscious agency that's "doing things". The events of history (a young Dunyain monk being sent to kill his father, a Mandate sorcerer being banished from the Empire, an Ark of aliens falling from the sky) are all movements of the God, Khahit, Fate, etc.

I do, of course, still think all of the ensouled beings have free will, it's just that the decisions they make, were the decisions they were always going to make.

The big picture is, everything's moving towards the God awakening, via Kellhus. It's all "part of the plan", because all of these things were always going to happen. It's also why there can only be one self-moving soul -- the God itself, the All-Soul.

Quote
I strongly disagree that Kellhus will close the way to outside and make the world more deterministic and soulless. Why would he do that and how would that make him a savior? Despite their damnation and their cruelty and their arbitrariness, the hundred provide the intuitive meaning that makes life worth living. Without them it'd be the semantic apocalypse.

Without them we would no better than the Inchoroi!

That's where they came from. They're humans without the fundamentalist meaning of the hundreds. Without the hundred hedonism and power are all their is. Without the hundred our hungers would define us and we would become a race of lovers and flesh.

Hmmm...this is a tough one and I'll probably have to return to it. To me, the "meaning" attributed by the Hundred is...well, kind of meaningless. It's no better or worse than the Inchoroi. Instead, Kellhus shutting the Outside and merging all of the souls into the Solitary God may be the best possible fate anyone could hope for. He is essentially freeing all souls from material bondage (a bondage that is enforced, if not initially perpetrated, by the demiurgic Hundred), and in a way bringing true enlightenment to all ensouled beings -- all possible thinking creatures. It's an apocalypse of a different kind. It's not necessarily "good" or "bad".

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« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2013, 11:04:13 pm »
I could agree with most of what you've written, FB, given the evidence we have.

Contentions:

That's why I think Moe's line about a "lie made truth" is important.

You sure this isn't Kellhus from the Umiaki helping Cnaiur remember skin-spy Kellhus (aka Sarcellus the Second)?

are all movements of the God, Khahit, Fate, etc.

This is what motivated my post. I don't think these things are the same thing, or even possibly, the same camp.
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Callan S.

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« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2013, 11:16:50 pm »
The white luck will kill him and he will ascend to walk the outside so he can change the rules of play.

Big +1. You've succinctly summed up my thoughts on the matter. My greatest nerdanel is that Moenghus made the same play at Kyudea, using his son/Cnaiur, and it somehow involves the conviction of his followers as they die ahead or in the same temporal locale/vicinity as he does.
So he brings an army just for them to believe in him so hard that when the WLW kills him, it sort of makes him into a topos or something?

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« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2013, 01:48:03 pm »
So he brings an army just for them to believe in him so hard that when the WLW kills him, it sort of makes him into a topos or something?

Hmm... he brings an army just for them to believe in him so hard while they die that when the WLW kills him, it sort of makes him ascend to his own realm of the Outside that he's created by dying after/alongside/around those who believe in him and die for him.

I mean, if the above is true for Moenghus and Kellhus, we could even make the argument that Kellhus usurps the Outside by having the Scarlet Spires use the Daimos or Metadaimos as it happens, thus trapping all the denizens of the Outside (Ciphrang/Gods) in the World...
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locke

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« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2013, 01:04:05 am »
what's also of interest is the possibility that Dagliash is built atop Viri (last seen in the False Sun).

A couple threads to bring together.

The Great Medial Screw goes from the bottom of the Cil Aujus to the top.

Kyudea is another non man mansion, presumably with a similar screw.  Inri Sejenus ascended to the Nail of Heaven from Kyudea.
Moenghus chose to die at the same place.

Viri is another nonman mansion, Dagliash may be built atop it, and if these pits the nonmen dug in mountains are important for ascending to heaven then Viri/Dagliash, like Kyudea or Cil Aujus might be one of the only places where it is possible to ascend.

So Kellhus is probably possibly engineering the same sort of circumstance because Dagliash is place.

Francis Buck

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« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2013, 07:29:31 pm »
And then the Super-Psukhe Titirga Wight is releases from aeons of slumber, to whom all are Feal!

Sorry, I just really like Titirga.

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« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2013, 08:47:10 pm »
And then the Super-Psukhe Titirga Wight is releases from aeons of slumber, to whom all are Feal!

Sorry, I just really like Titirga.

You beat me to it!   :D
No whistling on the slog!

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« Reply #56 on: December 25, 2013, 04:06:49 am »
Lol.

You know, I really think that Titirga is simply a cypher (washed Inward Mark, purity of recitation, etc) of what is possible. I honestly don't see him being part of the main narrative.
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dragharrow

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« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2014, 07:39:22 am »
Word Madness, I think I was to quick to generalize there.

Kahiht (aside Curethan or lockesnow's assertions) is the resulting distinction of mundane social interaction. If there is anything supernatural to it, it'd be the "walking with the momentum of many souls" a la Swazond (whatever that actually affects), I think, not godly imbued powers.
I don't remember exactly what Kahiht is or where it was mentioned. Could you point me to where that is in the books.

The White-Luck Warrior is Hundred Ordained.
I think I agree. Accepted.

The Hundred each have their own goals but take their lead from Yatwer who is the strongest.

Ajokli stands apart from the Gods.

Anagke is either an instrument of the God of Gods, the Solitary God, or none of them and her own agent.
Agreed.

The World Conspires may or may not be a tool of Anagke's, the God of Gods, the Solitary God - it too may just be the resulting mundane distinction of the interaction of various social forces manifested by humans on mass, and how there is always someone to see fortune in circumstance.
I don't exactly remember The World Conspires either. Who expresses this concept?

The God of Gods is the sum of the Hundred. It is one where they are many. It may or may not have agency in the world.

The Solitary God is the Ground of All (as per the Gnostic allusions). The God of Gods may or may not reflect actual moral dissonance from the Solitary God (a la Fanim, Inrithi, or Gnostic allusions).
Word.

We have no evidence of either the God of Gods or the Solitary God?
The fact that pursuing the Solitary God allows the Cish to avoid the mark is, in my opinion, evidence of salience. That said, I get that that might be exclusively an effect of their blindness. Tirtirga's muted mark certainly suggests that blindness without Fanim faith may be enough.

I would also count Meppa's conversation with Psatma as evidence of the Solitary God. I buy that he has seen the Outside and he still believes in the Solitary God.

I want to add the Non Men's Oblivion to the list.

I think it may or may not be the same thing as the Solitary God. They both theoretically provide freedom from the hells and heavens of hundred. If there is any distinction between them I think it would be that the solitary is genesis, the process that separates existence from the void, whereas oblivion could be the void itself.


Quote
I strongly disagree that Kellhus will close the way to outside and make the world more deterministic and soulless. Why would he do that and how would that make him a savior? Despite their damnation and their cruelty and their arbitrariness, the hundred provide the intuitive meaning that makes life worth living. Without them it'd be the semantic apocalypse.

Without them we would no better than the Inchoroi!

That's where they came from. They're humans without the fundamentalist meaning of the hundreds. Without the hundred hedonism and power are all their is. Without the hundred our hungers would define us and we would become a race of lovers and flesh.

Hmmm...this is a tough one and I'll probably have to return to it. To me, the "meaning" attributed by the Hundred is...well, kind of meaningless. It's no better or worse than the Inchoroi. Instead, Kellhus shutting the Outside and merging all of the souls into the Solitary God may be the best possible fate anyone could hope for. He is essentially freeing all souls from material bondage (a bondage that is enforced, if not initially perpetrated, by the demiurgic Hundred), and in a way bringing true enlightenment to all ensouled beings -- all possible thinking creatures. It's an apocalypse of a different kind. It's not necessarily "good" or "bad".

I want to hear more about this. I think this is a core fallacy that Bakker is addressing.

Yes, Meaning is "kind of meaningless". Meaning is essentially a delusion. The nihilists are right. The world is meaningless. Pure meaning does not exist. And so meaning dwells in the shadows and in the corners of your vision. It exists only where we cannot see the truth of its nonexistence. Our perception of freewill is an example of this. As Bakker argues, we only perceive it because we cannot see our own processing. Cleric sort of gestures at this.

Quote
“We Nonmen …” he continued telling his hands, “we think the dark holy, or at least we did before time and treachery leached all the ancient concerns from our souls …”

“You must understand,” Cleric said. “For my kind, holiness begins where comprehension ends. Ignorance stakes us out, marks our limits, draws the line between us and what transcends. For us, the true God is the unknown God, the God that outruns our febrile words, our flattering thoughts …”

Achamian battled the scowl from his face. To embrace mystery was one thing, to render it divine was quite another. What the Nonman said sounded too like Kellhus, and too little like what Achamian knew of Nonmen mystery cults.

Sight kills meaning. Knowledge kills meaning.

What would be the point of the enlightenment you're proposing? The only purpose in collecting truth is to slake our desires. Without desire, what would be the meaning in apprehending the absolute?

There are only three options. One, meaning in delusion and slavery (what the hundred give us). Two, existence without meaning and slavery. This is the existence of the Inchoroi. They are consumed by their appetites. And, three, nonexistence. This is how I see apprehending the absolute. It's oblivion.

I'd rather have meaning in ignorance than oblivion or pure appetite.

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« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2014, 02:36:08 pm »
Word Madness, I think I was to quick to generalize there.

It was more in response to the everyone's general use of the Pronouns, though I zeroed in on the exchange between you and FB :).

Kahiht (aside Curethan or lockesnow's assertions) is the resulting distinction of mundane social interaction. If there is anything supernatural to it, it'd be the "walking with the momentum of many souls" a la Swazond (whatever that actually affects), I think, not godly imbued powers.
I don't remember exactly what Kahiht is or where it was mentioned. Could you point me to where that is in the books.

Kahiht comes up all across the forum but The Almanac, TDTCB, Ch. 9 is where the meat of it is.

Also, Esmenet's first quotation about Kahiht comes from my copy of TDTCB, p596 (Canadian Paperback) - I don't think this is in Chapter 9, however.

The World Conspires may or may not be a tool of Anagke's, the God of Gods, the Solitary God - it too may just be the resulting mundane distinction of the interaction of various social forces manifested by humans on mass, and how there is always someone to see fortune in circumstance.
I don't exactly remember The World Conspires either. Who expresses this concept?

Well, the books do themselves, in a couple of the epigraphs or how the world general plays out; I think that Machiavelli's fortuna as a philosophic concept and historical phenomenon pretty much accounts for Anagke as a tool of the God's or not of them.

But Sci quoted Bakker and  expressed the concept in The World Conspires and then it seemed to be adapted into SA dialect quickly.

We have no evidence of either the God of Gods or the Solitary God?
The fact that pursuing the Solitary God allows the Cish to avoid the mark is, in my opinion, evidence of salience. That said, I get that that might be exclusively an effect of their blindness. Tirtirga's muted mark certainly suggests that blindness without Fanim faith may be enough.

I would also count Meppa's conversation with Psatma as evidence of the Solitary God. I buy that he has seen the Outside and he still believes in the Solitary God.

I'm already an advocate for Fanimry being most objectively correct of Earwan metaphysical interpretations. But we just don't have evidence to yet suggest a hierarchy between Titirga's Inward Stain (Mark) and the Cishaurim's absence of traditional Mark.

And I'm not sure yet how to account for thaumaturgical powers (divinely granted - Psatma, the Warrior, for sure; Achamian, Mimara, and Kelmomas, maybe).

I want to add the Non Men's Oblivion to the list.

I think it may or may not be the same thing as the Solitary God. They both theoretically provide freedom from the hells and heavens of hundred. If there is any distinction between them I think it would be that the solitary is genesis, the process that separates existence from the void, whereas oblivion could be the void itself.

You don't think Oblivion could be "standard" (yet still a niggling horror) dissolution? I was more trying to highlight actual metaphysical agencies.

I want to hear more about this. I think this is a core fallacy that Bakker is addressing.

Yes, Meaning is "kind of meaningless". Meaning is essentially a delusion. The nihilists are right. The world is meaningless. Pure meaning does not exist. And so meaning dwells in the shadows and in the corners of your vision. It exists only where we cannot see the truth of its nonexistence. Our perception of freewill is an example of this. As Bakker argues, we only perceive it because we cannot see our own processing. Cleric sort of gestures at this.

I'm honestly not sure that the revelation of eternal ignorance is nihilistic insomuch as it has nihilistic characteristics. We are absolutely bound by our circle of ignorance - but this doesn't make the meaningful content of what we do know inert.

Quote
“We Nonmen …” he continued telling his hands, “we think the dark holy, or at least we did before time and treachery leached all the ancient concerns from our souls …”

“You must understand,” Cleric said. “For my kind, holiness begins where comprehension ends. Ignorance stakes us out, marks our limits, draws the line between us and what transcends. For us, the true God is the unknown God, the God that outruns our febrile words, our flattering thoughts …”

Achamian battled the scowl from his face. To embrace mystery was one thing, to render it divine was quite another. What the Nonman said sounded too like Kellhus, and too little like what Achamian knew of Nonmen mystery cults.

Sight kills meaning. Knowledge kills meaning.

What would be the point of the enlightenment you're proposing? The only purpose in collecting truth is to slake our desires. Without desire, what would be the meaning in apprehending the absolute?

There are only three options. One, meaning in delusion and slavery (what the hundred give us). Two, existence without meaning and slavery. This is the existence of the Inchoroi. They are consumed by their appetites. And, three, nonexistence. This is how I see apprehending the absolute. It's oblivion.

I'd rather have meaning in ignorance than oblivion or pure appetite.

First - Cleric speaks almost of an unconstrained God like the one Inrilatas was modeling.

Second - I don't actually see how you and FB have disagreed here. Hopefully, there's a response by FB to clarify.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 02:39:10 pm by Madness »
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dragharrow

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« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2014, 04:58:33 am »
I'm already an advocate for Fanimry being most objectively correct of Earwan metaphysical interpretations. But we just don't have evidence to yet suggest a hierarchy between Titirga's Inward Stain (Mark) and the Cishaurim's absence of traditional Mark.
Wait why exactly? Tirtiga has eye problems, he has a muted mark. The Cish are totally blind and have no mark. I feel like that's evidence of a clear hierarchy at least in terms of a relationship between sight and mark. That said, I want Fanimry to be more relevant than that suggests it is. Meppa's dialogue though I think holds as evidence of Fanimry itself being accurate and the Cish's cleanliness not just being a product of blindness.

Quote
I want to add the Non Men's Oblivion to the list.

I think it may or may not be the same thing as the Solitary God. They both theoretically provide freedom from the hells and heavens of hundred. If there is any distinction between them I think it would be that the solitary is genesis, the process that separates existence from the void, whereas oblivion could be the void itself.

You don't think Oblivion could be "standard" (yet still a niggling horror) dissolution? I was more trying to highlight actual metaphysical agencies.
Hmm I guess I want to think of these things less as agencies than as forces. Isn't Oblivion fundamentally the "Ground of Grounds"? That was your term and I think it perfectly encapsulates the Solitary God. Everything ultimately must rise from the void.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 05:06:29 am by dragharrow »