The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Madness on July 29, 2017, 04:46:55 pm
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Mid-way through what will be my second reading session with the actual published canon book. Got the Macbeth (2015) OST bumping full blast.
Thought I'd meld as I went through.
First reading session was in my first bath following taking off my brokefoot spaceboot (themerchant, your chastising regarding being careful ended with no mishaps, this time around). I skimmed through WHCB, as delavagus (Three Roses thread (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=765.0) here - sadly a lot of dead links in there but Bakker considers him a writing prodigy ;)) had admonished Bakker to condense it this time around.
Made it through the first three chapters. Line by line, as Somnambulist has famously noted, the canon artifact differs sharply from the drafts - "the published book is the full colour version to the draft's black and white" (badly paraphrasing).
As Wilshire's noted, Esmenet finally realizing Kelmomas' depths is great. Obviously, a number of us called Malowebi's head being a POV post-TGO but I like it. Notably, the Decapitants look like Ciphrang, not like Malowebi and whoeverthefuck. Kelmomas also references some Tusk parable regarding "Ku'kumammu ... the accursed Babe-with-teeth!"(HC TUC, p16).
Love the introduction of the Moenghus the Younger POV(actually a POV I wanted more of across the drafts). I cracked a little when Moenghus reflects on being the Anasurimbor children's dog (or Leweth), basically. And then he's been treated to all the Nonmen Gnostic Agonies... (I particularly love how this plays out when he meets Cnaiur later because Moenghus is a fucking survivor). Also, really enjoy the fatal attraction between Sorweel and Serwa - she searches and searches with her heritage and finds nothing but this obscenely pure love Sorweel's signalling being God-Entangled and he's the broken sum of Immiriccas and himself while also coming to terms with her Dunyainity.
Brilliantly complicated.
The Ordeal... I suppose I'm just more fucked up than the commons. I agree with people suggesting that Kayutas is managing Proyas. Kellhus sure done took Proyas for a ride. I love the Blood Weeper (which Somnambulist did a great rendition of). Reminds me of the Shryke's tree in the Hyperion saga (nice to see increasing collective appreciation for that series around here). Watching the bacchanal from the sorcerous hearth can't be good for you, Proyas. And then finally... the Horns of Golgotterath - what a terrible book title that would have made.
Today so far, I've just read chapter four and five and might get into six and seven... but probably not.
I thought Achamian and Mimara's chapter was brilliantly written. Very well done. Mimara gets what must be a noteworthy quote:
"We march for life!" she cried, her tone as absolute as prophecy. "For hope!"
The imagery regarding the Sranc floating down the Leash from Dagliash was awesome. And Mimara wanting Achamian to build a raft. Lmao.
I'm with Wilshire - and Bakker seemed to have a fitting response during the early part of the Q&A thread - the sections that people are citing as representative of the entire book are not what people are making them out to be (though I will grant that I am a fucked up and damaged human being). The first two chapters of the Ordeal narrative are 16 and 21 pages long. All that cannibalism, rape, necrophilia, etc, that happens in the first ninety pages of the book, happens in less than a handful of lines and paragraphs of those forty some-odd pages. Maybe I've just watched too many shitty B horror movies in my lifetime but I was not distracted from all the great quotable lines and passages by the apparently offensive portions. Also, I will note, Chapter Three and Five seem to be cut compared to drafts - a notable now nonexistent passage missing therein - on the recommendation of one of Bakker's long-term beta-readers.
The bit about the Schools "recusing" (HC TUC, p78) themselves from what Wilshire and I have called The Dark Carnival of Anasurimbor Kellhus is great. Also, how Kellhus' manipulation of Proyas across TAE mirrors Moenghus the Elder's manipulation of Cnaiur. Love Proyas and Kayutas contemplating Golgotterath together.
So many quotable moments. I'll have to beef up Wilshire's Wikiquotes project at some point - always the intention, never the time :(.
Lol, anyhow, this Amiolas melding session seems to be at end before I even finished this post so until next time. Damn, some Future Madness is going to be busy with the Almanac someday.
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Also, I will note, Chapter Three and Five seem to be cut compared to drafts - a notable now nonexistent passage missing therein - on the recommendation of one of Bakker's long-term beta-readers.
I don't suppose you're at liberty to go into detail about this? ;)
Edit: Also, I'm pretty interested in your thoughts for the book in its entirety, now that you have the official print. I need to begin my second read-through as well - I think it's necessary to absorb it all again with knowledge of how it ends. It will paint a lot of things in a different light, I imagine.
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I'm sure I can (and will) wax about narrative construction but specific - if awesome - scenes that were cut and didn't make it into the canon artifact don't exist for any of us, myself included.
I snuck in another hour last night before cooking dinner for the house and so made it most of the way through Chapter Seven.
- Sorweel the Amputated Soul and Serwa racing back to the Ordeal is great. It seems as mentioned by others that Serwa firmly believes Moenghus dead. Also, Sorweel kissing Serwa as she translocates them across the Agongorea is a fantastic still (Quinthane/Somnambulist ;)?).
- Still love the complicated tryst between Sorweel/Serwa and it continues to be fascinating, especially given Sorweel's obvious physical revulsion upon finding the Ordeal again and yet Yatwer's Mask persists.
- Ah, the beginning of the reunions! Even after only a single book of distance, Proyas/Serwa/Kayutas/Sorweel reuniting is great. As is the Zsoronga/Sorweel reunion - interesting note for you, codebread and others, this read much more romantically/Amiolas/Mu'miorn motivated in the drafts whereas in the canon artifact is seems more like Zsoronga solely pushing for and that his taking advantage is almost the final push of Sorweel into Yatwer's machinations.
- The passage on p111, "Nothing had devoured the mouse," is one of my favortie (of many) and bookends Sorweel's life/current circumstances nicely.
- I'm only a little further, a couple pages before the end of the chapter, before I had to give up my reading solace but I have spoken with FB at length about the awe-striking power of vistas over the years and Bakker's ability to capture that with the Ark is awesome. Count me among the minority who did not tire of the characters continuous grappling with Min-Uroikas' fell image.
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So... notes, sort of, from my third reading session. I'll probably get a good fourth chunk in later today as I've been instructed to actually keep my foot elevated all day.
I forgot to mention last time, I really love that there were Ordealmen who didn't take part in Srancing the Scalded, Zsoronga included - if they may have participated in the Ordeal's dissolution on the Night of Bacchanal. Also, how fucking hard are those remaining Judges, including the one leading Zsoronga's congregation.
End of Chapter Six is fantastic. Sorweel contemplating the Ark at the Occlusion mirrors almost exactly Proyas contemplating the walls of Shimeh in TTT. Brilliant.
Also, I say again, Bakker's got some quality quotables sprinkled everywhere in classic one-liners.
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He was free! That was all that mattered ... The madness of the Ghouls and the Anasurimbor both were behind him. If his remaining span be brief, then let it be lucid - clean!
Moenghus the Younger is a BAMF.
I seem to recall wishing there was more Moenghus and the Scylvendi portions but Chapter Seven is one of the best... like being surprised at the Joktha storyline in TTT, though Moenghus the Younger gets nothing close to Cnaiur's night battle therein. But it is great knowing that Moenghus can go toe-to-toe with what his father's suffered. The Girl-Skinned Boy shames the Scylvendi, for fuck's sake, laughing as they torture him because they can't compete with the Gnostic Agonies of the Quya.
A crucial bit from the thing-called-Serwe, which I suppose readers have prevalently taken to mean the Nonmen quest for Oblivion is impossible but really reads like another factoid to round our understandings of the Nonmen practice:
"The Nonmen seek the Absolute" ... "They practice Elision, thinking they can hide themselves from Judgement, and so pass into Oblivion unseen, find absolution in the Absolute. The Dunyain use the same word the Kuniuri inherited from the Nonmen, but enamoured of intellect and reason, they believe it to be a goal ..."
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I love the image of the Ordeal gathered on the Occlusion Ampitheatre, the Ark its wicked and golden stage, each person wrestling alone with the dread vista.
Love the "Axe the Interval" passage, regarding the Ordealmen dragging the great gong through the passes of the Occlusion and striking it with an Axe.
I really think that readers who aren't awed by the Horns and think Bakker should have spent less time regarding how each character reflected on them should get outside more. Go hiking, go find Mountains. Get into the country on a clear night and watch the stars. Wrestle with nature's enormity.
Another of Somnambulist's great picks for a teaser image but poor Sibuwal's foil from TAE, Siroyon, riding alone with the morning to carry his Circumfix Standard to the Ubil Maw. Siroyon and Sibuwal's rivalry across TAE evokes some more of my love regarding Bakker's great peripheral characters (RIP The-Wind-Has-Teeth).
Noting again, as with TGO, the overuse of "a fraction" to reference someone's thoughts or state of mind whereas throughout the series before Bakker used mixed metaphors with various in-world analogies.
There's a confusing and interesting section at HC TUC, p139; it almost reads like Kellhus visits Proyas before denouncing him before the Believer-Kings.
A couple pages left of Chapter Eight.
Really excited for Future Madness' reading session.
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The Nonmen seek the Absolute" ... "They practice Elision, thinking they can hide themselves from Judgement, and so pass into Oblivion unseen, find absolution in the Absolute. The Dunyain use the same word the Kuniuri inherited from the Nonmen, but enamoured of intellect and reason, they believe it to be a goal ..."
When I read this the first time I had a crackpot theory that the Dunyain were originally created by the Nonmen to aid in their search for Elision/the Absolute.
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The Nonmen seek the Absolute" ... "They practice Elision, thinking they can hide themselves from Judgement, and so pass into Oblivion unseen, find absolution in the Absolute. The Dunyain use the same word the Kuniuri inherited from the Nonmen, but enamoured of intellect and reason, they believe it to be a goal ..."
When I read this the first time I had a crackpot theory that the Dunyain were originally created by the Nonmen to aid in their search for Elision/the Absolute.
I used to have a nerdanel regarding a Dunyain having taken over Ishterebinth. Right thought, wrong place, apparently ;).
Fourth reading session notes from yesterday afternoon (something to type up while waiting for hours in the hospital):
Started off by finished Ch. 8:
Proyas' speech passage closing the chapter before Kellhus shows up is great. I'll make mention of this a number of times, I'm sure but it reminds me of Cnaiur's speech to the Hemscylvinas at Joktha.
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Proyas' Judas moment is one of those classic world-tilt moments. I genuinely felt horrible for him even Cnaiur gave him fair warning twenty some-odd years ago. Aside, some readers telegraphed the betrayal as far back as WLW.
Love the callbacks to Cnaiur and Achamian, especially how Proyas' TAE arc parallels Cnaiur's youth so much. Conditioned ground, Proyas, common, man.
Will have to check it out but Kellhus' speech from the Accusatory is a straight parallel/inversion of his speech in Shikol's Palace from TTT.
Based on Bakker's religious upbringing, I'm going to take a guess and suggest that Kellhus on the Accusatory between two criminals "slung," in Kellhus' wildly efficient DIY rope crucifixion, is meant to evoke Jesus on the cross.
I happen to think while TUC mirrors TTT, TAE mirrors TWP, so I see a lot of parallels therein too. So just as someone had dragged Conphas' wardrobe across the Carathay, I want to salute those dedicated Ordealmen who dragged stacks of papyrus cups, the Imperial Family's laundry, and the rest of the surviving baggage across the fucking length of Earwa. If you want evidence of premeditation, look no further than the Great Letting and those fucking cups ;).
Also, as I read The Great Letting this time around all I could think of is "The Blood of Christ compels you!"
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A great Malowebi quote including suggestion that Psatma indeed remembered past her death and a metaphor explicitly naming the reader as Witness (I am Malowebi's Severed Head):
"And now you wish to know your part in this?" ... realizing he suffered the very doom the accursed with had prophesied: to watch, to witness as a reader might, unable to touch, unable to save.
I really, really don't get why people don't like Achamian & Mimara's Pointless Adventure (though, I don't think it such). First, the two POVs and their writing are of the best in the whole series. I've been waiting for an World-ordained Prophet(ess) to counter Kellhus' Prophet subversion since I misinterpeted the jacket of TWP. Second, if the only thing that renders their journey pointless to those readers who think it so is the fact that Mimara never sees Kellhus with the Eye, then I'm not sure what kind of books you read that never surprise and always deliver narrative catharsis exactly as telegraphed from preceding events. That sounds boring :P.
Classic one-liner, with a wonderful preceding paragraph:
That courage was the work of flawed tools.
I definitely felt overwhelmed when Achamian and Mimara see the Ark from atop the Occlusion at one of the ruined Nonmen towers. What a great fucking moment.
Some great quotes from Kellhus to Proyas, when he hauls him back up the Accusatory. I've previously used these as evidence in my conversations with profgrape about how Kellhus didn't know about Ajokli's impending subsuming. Also what a fucking brutal scene, Kellhus confirming that he thinks Proyas is Damned but is delaying his death to save him from an eternity of the Hells for a couple heartbeats longer.
"I'm not sure... the closer I come, the greater the darkness grows."
"Because if I were to lie to you, I would not know what I was lying for... The darkness all but owns me here... The darkness that comes before. Any lie I might utter would serve ends I cannot know... I speak the truth to you, Proyas, because truth is all I have left to speak."
And another that suggests Kellhus was indeed expecting to find Dunyain at Golgotterath.
"Aye, if the Absolute is anywhere to be found, it is here."
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I also don't get criticisms of how Sorweel suddenly becomes a White-Luck Warrior. Sorweel's bead breaking following on Cnaiur recounting Achamian's metaphor for madness in Earwa as the Outside leaking in - that Sorweel narrative arc alone has taken four books! Sorweel has endured more than any one soul can...
There's an earlier Proyas section before Kellhus pulls him up but I fucking cheered aloud the first time I read when Sorweel sees "an old Ketyai in rancid furs." The Wizard returns!
Fantastic writing as Prophetess Mimara she walks through the Ordealmen. What a great passage, holy shit. Also a nice quote regarding how TAE has been about Mimara coming to terms with her Prophetess status and a likely glimpse of her future in TNG:
For this, she realizes, is what it means to possess the Judging Eye, to walk among, and not flee, the damned, and to find some way to help them see ... Give voice to the Judging Eye. The Judgement of God ... All this... all the damned kings and warriors and sorcerers... the Great Ordeal... and its dread task... All of it belongs to her ... She is the only true Prophet here.
The paragraphs of Mimara apprehending the Ark with the Eye :o!
Of course Achamian seeks out Saccarees. I really enjoyed their back and forth and the revelation that Esmenet's apparently forestalled Achamian's assassination. Wilshire is admonishing me not to leave these little notes but I will say there's a piece of this section which follows along from two different sections removed from TGO and TUC respectively, making me wonder why it was referenced here at all. Really, really hope Bakker releases an annotated/director's cut book/audiobook type dealio at some point.
I love that the Ordealmen, Pilliarians, and surviving functionaries remember their Imperial duties and treat Mimara according, despite her inauspicious arrival. Her and Esmenet interacting for the first time on page made me cry, as Mimara is seeded all the way back through PON, even in Esmenet's very first fucking POV in TDTCB.
That fucking tapestry (!!) - I'm really happy that other people are starting to pick up on this and share my obsession.
bridgeburner just noted this in another thread but Mimara doesn't seem to see Kelmomas and then does (p199) - is this a misdirect or Judging Eye closing? Mimara clearly is able to see the No-God later (though I can't recall if the Eye is open at the time).
Lol, I'm kind of bummed that my canon artifact doesn't have the ARC email embedded within the text ;).
Great quote from Sorweel's POV that betrays something interesting about whether or not the Gods know about the Ark/No-God/Consult (my bold) as well as their knowledge of Ajokli making his play (my italics):
Alone on the edge of the encampment, looking out across the darkling plain at the carcass of a long dead evil, the pretext that would make a glutton of Hell.
Another great reunion moment: Esmenet stumbling from the Umbilicus to see the Ark and then almost immediately thereafter Achamian. Made me cry, reading this scene for the first time in dead, bound, tattooed tree format.
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I was about to start Ch. 12 but that'll have to wait until Future Madness fifth reading session.
Someone really needs to quote the aphorisms in one thread like locke's previous threads (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=7.0) (apparently for TGO as well - looking at you ebook aficionados. But a line from this one that I really like:
For souls are naught but torches that burn as time and place.
Indeed.
Amazing. Can't wait for The Last Whelming!
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Fantastic writing as Prophetess Mimara she walks through the Ordealmen. What a great passage, holy shit. Also a nice quote regarding how TAE has been about Mimara coming to terms with her Prophetess status and a likely glimpse of her future in TNG:
This. I was reminded of a scene from TWP, wherein Kellhus was having a sermon about Witness. The one where he was asking the soldier about the little dead girl they saw on the road. This is a great inversion of that, wherein 'the girl' Mimara is Witnessing all these Damned Men with the Judging Eye, all worse than dead... dunno, I make weird connections sometimes.
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Great stuff, Madness...please keep it coming.
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Great stuff, Madness...please keep it coming.
x 2
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Fantastic writing as Prophetess Mimara she walks through the Ordealmen. What a great passage, holy shit. Also a nice quote regarding how TAE has been about Mimara coming to terms with her Prophetess status and a likely glimpse of her future in TNG:
This. I was reminded of a scene from TWP, wherein Kellhus was having a sermon about Witness. The one where he was asking the soldier about the little dead girl they saw on the road. This is a great inversion of that, wherein 'the girl' Mimara is Witnessing all these Damned Men with the Judging Eye, all worse than dead... dunno, I make weird connections sometimes.
Nah, those are exactly the kinds of connections I love to think about.
But remember, we're the weird minority ;).
Great stuff, Madness...please keep it coming.
x 2
Thanks :)!
Probably won't get another session in today but probably tomorrow.
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Fifth reading session. I was hoping to be done in two more sit-downs when I started today but alas.
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Reread, so won't note the aforementioned epigraph quote in my last notes.
There's a nice paragraph evoking memories of the First Holy War's crucible through the Carathay (HC TUC, p208).
Reuniting souls once bound together amounts to the coupling of interlocking wounds, the pressing of scar to scar, scab to scab.
For reals.
I love during Kelmomas' POV where he's whispering to his Father from across the Umbilicus and Kellhus responds, scaring some functionaries.
I can't speak to what others don't notice... if front and center narrative cruxes are glazed over, no doubt much is missed, but I love small moments like Esmenet/Mimara laughing at Achamian:
"And what? ... Leave your pregnant wife to waddle across Shigogli alone?
"He wants Proyas to live ... not to die ... To lure us ... remove us from the Great Ordeal."
Nice Xanatos Speed Chess (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosSpeedChess) there, Kellhus. Really doing your father's memory justice.
Some of these Sorweel passages are brilliant, Bakker embodying his own writing advice regarding seeding and repetition. "Such a lonely flute" is used like "And the Plains pass like a Dream" from WLW to much the same lulling effect.
Such a lonely little song ... a bewildered wail upon the abyss.
Classic one-liner.
Fack, I think Serwa is awesome. The section with her and Kelmomas, yielding to the common purpose precedes the Kellhus/Mutilated conversation nicely - hindsight is 20/20, obviously. Also, the "fathom our Father" advice. Apt, big sister.
And they all seemed like apes in the shadows, carnival wags, compared to their Holy Aspect-Emperor - even Serwa. All of them groped and thrashed in the black - save Him.
Lmao. Wow, Bakker. Kelmomas witnessing the last Whelming, explicitly in the above quote, showcases the parallels between Kellhus' TTT speech preceding the assault on Shimeh.
The whole section of Kelmomas then "fathoming Father" is great.
Noted that quote about the Ekkinu "waxing bright" for no reason happens right after Kellhus calls Earwa "the Holiest of Worlds" (p227). I suppose we should enlist H to search for instances of Ekkinu in the text across TAE.
Serwa commanding Kelmomas' attention with hands on his shoulder and a palm to the cheek to direct his attention during the ceremony, all sisterly-like.
Kelmomas recognizing that Kellhus plays "the game of games" (p228). Indeed. Reminds me of one of Omar's mottoes on The Wire: The game is the game.
"We shall seize our foe by his throat, cast his corpse from the golden heights!"
You don't say, Kellhus. Cheeky bastard.
The boy could swear he heard the collective heart of the congregation slow.
The Symphony of the Dunyain, conducting souls, rather than instruments.
- I must admit that the levitation without Mark move and subsequent speech does seem to precede directly Ajokli God-Mode later as other readers have already noted. But... I still wonder if Kellhus has just learned to perform sorcery without Marking the Onta.
"Every act was a wager, even those belonging to Father."
Indeed.
It's nice how Bakker slips Sorweel's POV stylistically into the Warrior's POV without italics. Also, I really like the usage of the "moment-once-called-Sorweel" (p233)... that's just great :).
As mentioned, Sorweel sees "The Demon" (p233). I personally think that what Bakker did with this across TAE is quite clever and echoes what's happened with every Orthodox and heathen perspective across the series (Psatma/Meppa/Malowebi). The Gods and their Wairo (sp?) (God-entangled individuals) all talk about or see or name Kellhus as Ciphrang/Demon. I strongly suspect that the Momemn narrative across TAE makes the most sense when we assume that the Gods are hunting Ajokli primarily, not Kellhus for Kellhus.
"directly before the Ciphrang, breathing deep the scent of myrrh."
You don't fucking say, Yatwer-entangled Sorweel... Most interesting. (H, search up instances of "myrrh" over the series ;).)
As noted by other readers, MOCS recognized the Decapitant-Malowebi as Zeumi.
Also, as noted by other readers, MOCS sees the Ekkinu like Neo sees the Matrix Code - despite that Bolivar got a resounding "No." to the "Is Earwa a simulation?" question.
I'll admit the first time I read this chapter in the draft, I actually thought MOCS got Kellhus. Had to put the book down and prepare myself for that possibility.
There's an interesting passage on p235/236. It's maybe Yatwer to Sorweel, maybe Sorweel's memory and understanding of his Mom's mental illness, maybe both in Earwa...? Either way, it's a couched description of the necessity of hunting Ajokli.
Why bandy words with a Dunyain?
When Mimara blows by her sister at the Last Whelming. Mimara has recently gone toe-to-toe with the Survivor. How can Serwa even contend.
But the Eye refuses to listen.
And so Mimara does not See Kellhus. You can count me among that minority who does not find this frustrating. Kellhus bolts, not wanting to risk Judgement by the Eye, it seems.
Doze in my holy arms.
This whole passage and chapter is great for the reason that you don't know where things are going to go. Kelmomas taking on MOCS, with such ease even, is great.
Proyas being slung was heartbreaking but it seemed a natural consequence of the narrative. When Sorweel died, I knew no principal was safe.
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"Think of it as a Cant ... Only blood instead of light ... Life instead of ruin."
Beauty quote from Esmenet regarding pregnancy and life!
Solid paragraph on p247 which again evokes this "the Reader is Malowebi's Head" metaphor noted in a post above; translocation in Malowebi's perspective described as pages turning. Most interesting.
Requisite Kelmarmus the Oscillating Soul notation (p248).
I noticed a big nod to profgrape and MG's incessant insistence that spider metaphors appear everywhere: this one when Achamian watches Mimara's pregnant shadow (p249).
You know, kudos to Bakker portraying a pregnancy in a Fantasy novel. I have sisters and friends with wives and friends who are mothers with small children, etc, etc. I'm glad he wrote with diligence to portray Mimara's pregnancy. Does anyone else know a Fantasy narrative that does this? It reminded that I really appreciated Bakker's portrayal of the Skin Eaters succumbing to Qirri across the WLW.
The reunion of Achamian and Kellhus. Amazing. Again, even Achamian chokes on the mundanity and anticlimax of the moment. Because guess what, good fiction imitates life and life doesn't happen like books!
And he, Drusas Achamian, had been the one responsible, the fool who had betrayed the Gnosis to a Dunyain!
Done fucked it all up, didn't you now, Akka ;)?
Anasurimbor Kellhus had requested it, thus it must be denied.
"Your hatred has not waned."
"Cnaiur's lesson."
Fuck yeah, Achamian. I am interested in why Kellhus was interested in Achamian's Dreams changing. Especially if he had actually Translocated into Achamian's tower and read his notes as Mimara imagined.
Oh, and so Cnaiur seems right about Achamian in the White-Yaksh in TGO; tied to Kellhus by vengeance, same as Cnaiur himself.
In that slender moment, it seemed, he saw the very sum of all she had lost and endured in the interval between this moment and Shimeh. Ansurimbor Kellhus had been the greatest blight, the most onerous yoke she had ever suffered, and she hated him as she hated no other...
Esmenet sure is a fucking resilient person.
Achamian reminiscing and regretting going to the Sareotic Library, willing anything to take back that exit. Fuck, do I know that feeling. Some moments in life :'(...
"And what are you, Holy Tutor, but a snarl, a loose thread that I suffer?"
Damn, this actually makes me cry. What tangled webs you weave, Earwans.
Esmenet giving Kelmomas a small file and facilitating the murder of Kellhus parallels his doing the same for Inrilatas and facilitating his brother's attempt to murder Maithanet.
Again, I really don't understand how - Bolivar, looking at you ;) - so many people glossed over this Skin-Spy Esmenet abducting Kelmomas passage... it comes directly after the section where Esmenet frees Kelmomas, ffs. Kelmomas severing Migagurit's ankles... just brutal.
The passage ending Ch. 13 is amazing. I love that it bookends the cannibalistic bacchanal of the Ordeal. Compassion, empathy, and "gorgeous humanity" (p265) fueling the last night before the Ordeal's attempt on Golgotterath.
And I only could make it through a couple chapters this afternoon... even today's session was interrupted intermittently, breaking the spell periodically. Plus, as I and others noted about TGO, each line of TUC is simply worth more. As I said to Wilshire, Somnambulist, MG, and pretty much anyone who would listen, the way Bakker has built up associations across the five/six preceding books means that he can take a sentence to cue his readers where he required paragraphs or pages in the earlier books in the series.
It makes this conclusion exceeding dense, which is why it probably doesn't reward shallow reading.
Looking forward to my last sessions. Depending on my time allowances over the weekend, once I make it to the Mutilated reveal I'll probably stop and make sure my final reading session is pristine.
I'll probably not continue in this thread for the Glossary, though, I suppose I'll be moving this to the Almanac when I'm done either way.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/50/5a/d3/505ad3c84cc53ef72fe113191580a23c--vintage-cartoons-classic-cartoons.jpg)
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Great stuff, Madness!
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i think skin spies smell like myrrh. i wonder why kelhus smells like myrrh in that encounter with white-luck-sorweel.
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Great stuff, Madness!
Thanks, Hiro. Hoping to be done before Zaudunyanicon (next fucking weekend!).
i think skin spies smell like myrrh. i wonder why kelhus smells like myrrh in that encounter with white-luck-sorweel.
That was my thought too. I think there are mentions of myrrh used as a mundane scent as well throughout the series but I remember the skin-spies notation.
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That was my thought too. I think there are mentions of myrrh used as a mundane scent as well throughout the series but I remember the skin-spies notation.
Yeah, I remember going through the series a while back and indeed a skin-spy always smells of myrrh, but myrrh is used by others who are not skin-spies.
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Maybe the myrrh thing is simply to reinforce the skinspy's status as someone who can afford said spice to make themselves smell better (i.e., they're part of the upper classes). This would make them less likely to be questioned if they're ever caught in potentially compromising situations.
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Again, I really don't understand how - Bolivar, looking at you ;) - so many people glossed over this Skin-Spy Esmenet abducting Kelmomas passage... it comes directly after the section where Esmenet frees Kelmomas, ffs. Kelmomas severing Migagurit's ankles... just brutal.
So this first time I read it, I actually assumed it was The Survivor's Son. The return of the Scylvendi made me think of him, that he had doubled back and was shadowing the shadowers. After you guys addressed my skepticism, it seems pretty obvious that it's Kelmomas and the Skin Spy likely brought him to the Ark. I'm ashamed!
Awesome thread, Madness, always appreciate your insights, especially since you've probably been moderating yourself for the last few years, so as to not give anything away.
Regarding the comment about "the meat" or the consequences Sranc withdrawl earlier in this thread... while it's somewhat expected that some readers might react negatively, I am a little surprised by it. My take is that we all knew what we signed up for ahead of time but, more importantly, the depravity totally fits within the context of the story and where things have been heading. I feel like the Second Apocalypse is the only series that could get away with this level of over-the-top shit and not feel like it's being forced or jumping the shark. And Madness is right, it's very clear that it's confined to the opening of the book, one last trial for the Ordeal to overcome before the final showdown at Golgotterath. And the scenes it set up with the last whelming and Proyas are all pretty amazing.
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Ch. 14:
I believe the opening epigraph should be attributed to the fighting Norsirai of the Holy Way at Mengedda.
A chevron of geese drawn long and ragged fled across the bluing skies.
Daybreak.
Lmao. What are we, in a John Woo movie? Also, nod to Achamian's OG mule and that moment most prized by Mandate Schoolman (and no doubt Swayali Witches).
And thus begins the Battle at Golgotterath.
I love that Kellhus divided the Ordeal into the three "Trials" of the Ordeal (p267) - doesn't seem quite so neat a division or description regarding which Schools are paired with which Trials as when the Great Ordeal divides into the Four Armies for forage at the Leap.
I actually hadn't recalled this part but MG mentioned it on the weekend "the Black Mouth of Golgotterath" (p268) - definite Tolkien nod (Black Gates/Mouth of Sauron).
The chorus rumbled out across Shigogli, and the Men heard what their ancient forebears had once heard - as the Nonmen had heard before them: the way the Horns reflected shredded echoes, and so mocked all collective declaration.
Damn.
Im'vilaral, the Nonmen of Viri had called them so very many indignities ago, the 'Horizon-that-has-teeth.'
I'll take this as a nod to Athjeari (though, it's probably unintentional), scourge of Fanim, second only to the Horns themselves! Hurall’arkeet!
The parable of the Pitarwum of the Yimaleti is great.
I think I'm going to bullet point the battle for the lulz: (see bottom of post.)
Only the Nonmen, Nil'giccas and his allies, had managed to overrun this, the most wicked of all places.
We talked about this over the weekend. Cool. Shit. Not only that the Nonmen were the only Earwan force to get into the Ark but then to proceed to purge it over five hundred years!
Damn.
That pesky short notation that seems to be eluding a good number of readers about the Scylvendi taking out the Ordeal's scouts ;) (p276). I will admit, it's short.
Hringa Vukyelt, son of Hringa Skaiyelt of First Holy War fame pushes forward to present terms to the Consult (p276). Badass... but count me among those who enjoy connecting obscure dots. Pins and string, people!
Again, I'm just going to keep claiming minority outright but I actually like the opening back and forth between Mekeritrig and the Ordeal, especially given that he might simply be speaking to Kellhus rather than the Ordeal or humankind as a whole.
The Holy Aspect-Emperor stood unharmed, his Believer-King kneeling at his side. A wild mane of scorching formed a perfect circle about them, blackened earth still smoking.
Kellhus testing Cet'ingira... Brave Vukyelt. But is it courage or foolhardy stalking a more powerful shadow...
Proyas. Saubon. But then Oinaral trusting Sorweel's destiny to preserve him was also foolhardy, though the alarum was heard. Things to ponder...
monstrous Hagazioz, the Feathered Worm of the Pit, a Godling the size of two galleys set end upon end.
Kakaliol is great but Hagazioz is fantastic... a cousin of Zioz, maybe?
Their deception spent, the Ursranc surged onto the heights of Golgotterath's walls, armoured in hauberks of black scale, their cheeks branded with Twin Horns, hooting in their corrupt tongue.
Twin Horns/White Hand, Ursranc/Uruk-hai.
One thousand Kites, as the Ordealmen had come to call them, fairly every sorcerer of rank the Major Schools of the Three Seas could muster.
The greatest assembly of sorcerous power the World may have ever seen.
I fear more horrific souls have claimed me.
I've wondered about this line by Iyokus... he could be interpreted as to mean greater Ciphrang, Kellhus himself, or even Ajokli, given that Iyokus is even more to blame than Achamian for creating Kellhus as he is (having provided him with the Daimos as Achamian did the Gnosis.
Great passage regarding being a husband at a pregnancy - as it's been relayed to me by friends and family anyhow (again count my among those few who actually enjoyed reading about a pregnancy in a fucking Fantasy novel) (p284).
"Someone, Mother ... Someone must see."
Given that Anagke mid-wifs their lives, it's possible that Achamian, personally, has to appreciate that specific vista.
But the Triunes continued their blind advance, converging upon the one thing they could clearly sense in the swirling great monotony: the fallen Trinkets of the Chorae Hoard, strewn about the base of the very stoneworks they had exposed and weakened.
I really love this bit - especially how the Triunes were established to carry their compatriots from battle in the advent of near-hits by Chorae.
Domathuz collapses "revealing stacked floors that crawled as broken beehive, a glimpse of a thousand inhuman throes, before all dropped howling into the smoke and ruin below.
What a great and horrifying image.
For the first time in history, the belly of Golgotterath lay exposed to the licentious fury of Men.
Love the Achamian section that ends the chapter, seeing the towers of Golgotterath fall. The Wizard of the Second Apocalypse! And as I said over the weekend, I don't have the eye for it that others have but I can see the camera lens peering towards Achamian's back, Golgotterath and the Horns framing him against the sky, while the Ordeal and Schools unleash their fury.
The Battle at Golgotterath:
- Vukyelt calls terms.
- Cet'ingira tries to get Kellhus in a Chorae Hail.
- Kellhus Translocates.
- Iyokus and the Scarlet Spires unleash the Ciphrang from above.
- The walls of Golgotterath are covered with Wards and the Scarlet Spires set the Ciphrang on those of the High Cwol, the walls of the Intrinsic Gate.
- Chorae Bowman advance and hit the Wards on the walls:
The Chorae Hoard rained upon and across them, each sparking violent dissolution, explosions of salt. Blocks cracked. Joists groaned. The Ursranc on the parapets were thrown from their feet.
- Clear Ordeal objective, take out the Quyan Wards (p281).
- Serwa commands the Schools to unleash the Ordeal's sorcerous contingent, first move obscuring the ramparts with dusk and grit (a la Kellhus with mist at Sakarpus).
- Schools advance through their shroud using the Chorae Hoard, which lay against the foundations of the walls, to orient themselves while dodging another Chorae Hail.
- Consult waits in defensive position.
- The Scarlet Spires and the Mandate take out Corrunc.
- The mundane Ordeal "surges forward" (p287).
- Domathuz falls to the Schools.
- The Swayal assail the Ubil Maw.
To Be Continued and Collated... Current Perceived Advantage: Ordeal.
Read Ch. 14 in two sittings over two days. I very likely won't get another sitting until tomorrow afternoon - though I'm going to try and put a couple more hours work in transcribing Zaudunyanicon audio while I babysit.
Cheers.
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Done.
I yielded to the scholastic impulse and made notes/signs in the margins so as to have a less interrupted reading experience. I will work on that today and tomorrow so then I can get into the dividends of Zaudunyanicon (pictures/audio transcription) as well as some other outstanding fandom due diligence... since my foot shall be functional again soon enough and take me out of SlugLife2.0.
Chapter 15 and on were done in three sessions. Thankfully the majority of that was today.
I can't say I'm any more or less confused than before regarding the ending. It all seems pretty clear to me - or I suppose we all say that ;). I'll peruse the Glossary over the next couple weeks but I doubt I'll make Almanac notation for it yet.
As per Bakker's draft suggestions, the Macbeth (OST 2015) has been welded to my experience of TUC and the last two chapters (seeing as preceding chapters were split or added to to create new chapters) likewise paired with Requiem for Soprano, Mezzo-Soprano, 2 Mixed Choirs and Orchestra by György Ligeti on repeat - which I'm sure everyone might better know simply as "The Monolith Music."