The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Cnaiür vs Karsa vs Drogo on May 22, 2021, 07:47:51 am

Title: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: Cnaiür vs Karsa vs Drogo on May 22, 2021, 07:47:51 am
Is it possible the nonmen leading the sranc army are from ishteribinth? the delegation that shows up to the ordeal says theyre surprised they survived. maybe they were in on it.

Also I never put this together, but it can't be a coincidence that they wanted kelhus to go to dagliash and there happened to be a crazy trap there, all while depriving him of his most trusted sorceress + 2. A very tidy trap now that I think on it.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: Quinthane on May 23, 2021, 04:21:31 pm
Yes. The very deadly Consult trap that, seemingly, could have gone undetected by Kellhus and detonated wiping out the Ordeal and most importantly...Kellhus....

...thus making System Resumption an impossibility.

For a goal that relies entirely on the insertion of a living, breathing person with Anasurimbor blood, the Consult seems to play awfully fast and loose with things. Detonating an atomic bomb, using the Heron Spear’s sister spear to nearly kill Serwa, then Skuthula to nearly kill Kyutas and to actually kill Serwa. Then a skin-spy kills Kellhus. And the arrival of Kelmomus seemed wasn’t on anyone s playbook.

It bugs me. And there’s nobody that loves this story more that me, but...it bugs me.



Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: Wilshire on May 24, 2021, 12:59:45 pm
Yes. The very deadly Consult trap that, seemingly, could have gone undetected by Kellhus and detonated wiping out the Ordeal and most importantly...Kellhus....

...thus making System Resumption an impossibility.

For a goal that relies entirely on the insertion of a living, breathing person with Anasurimbor blood, the Consult seems to play awfully fast and loose with things. Detonating an atomic bomb, using the Heron Spear’s sister spear to nearly kill Serwa, then Skuthula to nearly kill Kyutas and to actually kill Serwa. Then a skin-spy kills Kellhus. And the arrival of Kelmomus seemed wasn’t on anyone s playbook.

It bugs me. And there’s nobody that loves this story more that me, but...it bugs me.

Those are all... very good points lol. Especially because we know the Dunyain are the Consult at this point. I think we're supposed to assume they how to get the No-God running again.

Maybe they figured if they did end up killing all of them, they could either go back and grab Theli, or maybe force one of themselves into the thing. After 2000 years, all the Dunyain are a least a little Anasurimbor.

So maybe as an excuse we can say that Kellhus alive is more of a threat than Kellhus dead.
Or, that they came to the same conclusion that Kellhus did, and figured that whoever needed to live to make it into the No-God and seal the world would eventually just make it into the golden room. Since it "already happened"...

That said, those are pretty unsatisfying excuses.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: H on May 24, 2021, 04:57:55 pm
I don't know, I still think that even if Dagliash goes perfectly well for the Consult there is essentially near zero chance that Kellhus himself is killed.  The aim is likely to reduce the Ordeal itself to near inoperability, so that when Kellhus arrives, he will not be aided.  Granted, near zero is not zero, but the Consult likely has to risk it, because they can't allow the Ordeal to just walk up to the door, that has too many confounding variables to account for really.

So, I think it's a little odd, no doubt, but it has some sense to it.  Is it risky?  Yes.  But is it more or less risky than just letting Kellhus do whatever he wants?  Unclear, but likely not too much either way.

Another thing to consider is that the Consult still is playing some manner of charades.  They have to "pretend" that they want to kill Kellhus, because deliberately avoiding killing him would be a dead giveaway of their whole plan.  Which means Kellhus might suss it out and fail to show up.  The crux might well be that they don't know that Kellhus' plan is specifically to waltz in regardless of what they do, so they have to lure him somehow and not tip their hand.

It might work better in thinking that Dagliash is really a risky demonstration.  I think they realize that post-Metagnosis, they cannot possibly threaten Kellhus' person, so they take to a dog and pony show in order to convince him that they have the more effective way of dealing with the "Damnation problem."  That isn't without some risk, but again, the allow Kellhus to realize that they have no interest in killing him is probably even more risky.  Along with the fact that an intact Ordeal is likely a unneeded confounding variable in the whole plan.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: The P on May 24, 2021, 09:19:16 pm
I am not sold on the Dunsult knowing it needs Kellhus, nor even that he could be an insertant.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: H on May 24, 2021, 09:45:10 pm
I am not sold on the Dunsult knowing it needs Kellhus, nor even that he could be an insertant.

But they did, it's why they took the Chorae off the Carapace.

They even say as much:
Quote
“And you think I’m the missing piece?” Kellhus asked. “The Subject that will revive this ... system?”

Was that why the Chorae had been removed from the Carapace? For him? It seemed to Malowebi that he strangled ...

The nearest of the disfigured Dûnyain, the burnt one, nodded. “The Celmomian Prophecy foretells your coming, Brother.”

I also just realized that we are in the TGO section.  Should we spoiler this stuff, or move it to the TUC section?
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: The P on May 24, 2021, 11:22:51 pm
Oh yeah, this should probably be moved.  I don't know how to spoiler tag from my phone, so I'll refrain from posting more.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: H on May 25, 2021, 03:41:34 pm
Oh yeah, this should probably be moved.  I don't know how to spoiler tag from my phone, so I'll refrain from posting more.

No need, I split off the topic and moved it to TUC, so we can post away, spoiler tag free.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 26, 2021, 09:04:17 am
But they did, it's why they took the Chorae off the Carapace.
I heavily dispute this reasoning. In this case, first, they had enough time to put the Chorae back on after ultimately going with Kelmomas. Second, it is absolutely unclear that the Chorae would even damage the Insertant, since the Carapace is thick enough to serve as protection - the Chorae are on the outside of it, while the Insertant is inside.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: The P on May 26, 2021, 12:47:11 pm

But they did, it's why they took the Chorae off the Carapace.

They even say as much:
Quote
“And you think I’m the missing piece?” Kellhus asked. “The Subject that will revive this ... system?”

Was that why the Chorae had been removed from the Carapace? For him? It seemed to Malowebi that he strangled ...

The nearest of the disfigured Dûnyain, the burnt one, nodded. “The Celmomian Prophecy foretells your coming, Brother.”

Still not convinced.  I will try to put out my thoughts.  I'm erratic and in sore need of a reread.  If the Celmomian Prophesy is the basis for their "knowledge" of needing Kellhus as an insertant, they are making some intense cognitive leaps (which I guess maybe I can't be expected to understand, them being Dunyain and all).  All the prophesy says is an Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world.  I don't think there's any more to it, since we are shown the scene where Celmomas says it to Seswatha.  That's so vague, it could mean any of the many Anasurimbors running around, why decide on the most difficult to grab?  I take the disfigured's nod to be more saying, "well, here you are, so we're going to plug you in and see what happens."

If they really think the Anasurimbor lineage is the key to awakening the No-God, why aren't they plugging in one of their own?  Surely at least one of the disfigured has some Anasurimbor blood in them.  If they knew the original insertant, it seems logical they'd want to try another Anasurimbor, but did the Consult even know who the original insertant was?  My impression was Nau-Cayuti was just another faceless attempt in a long procession of souls (but it's been a while since I read that scene).

It's easier for me to believe the Consult/Dunsult is ignorant of how to start the No-God than it is for me to believe they're just pretending to try to kill Kellhus to lure him in.  All the while ignoring any of his more accessible offspring or ishualian relations for 20 years.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 26, 2021, 01:27:25 pm
Speaking of the Dunyain all having Anasurimbor blood - I think Bakker is making an effort to counter this argument when he talks about the Twelve Germs (if memory serves), of which the Anasurimbor one is the most promising. Since the Germs are pointedly named as different from each other, I get the idea that the Dunyain in their generational selection quest were strict about keeping the lineages separated.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: H on May 26, 2021, 01:47:37 pm
I heavily dispute this reasoning. In this case, first, they had enough time to put the Chorae back on after ultimately going with Kelmomas. Second, it is absolutely unclear that the Chorae would even damage the Insertant, since the Carapace is thick enough to serve as protection - the Chorae are on the outside of it, while the Insertant is inside.

Well, I was slightly incorrect, it's Kellhus thinking this is why, not them saying it.  In any case though, I am not sure why you think they'd have that time though.  I mean, from our abstract, third person knowledge, we do know they likely have plenty of time, but they stuff little Kel in there post-haste, so they seemingly don't think they do.  We also have no idea how the Chorae are affixed though, so we don't know really how long it would take really.

It's easier for me to believe the Consult/Dunsult is ignorant of how to start the No-God than it is for me to believe they're just pretending to try to kill Kellhus to lure him in.  All the while ignoring any of his more accessible offspring or ishualian relations for 20 years.

Well, I think you are 100% correct, they do not know, they are just guessing.  But, I'd still contend that they (for whatever reason) consider it likely that Kellhus is the "right fit" or, at least, not the wrong fit.  In other words, since they have no real idea what makes it work, they are looking to try any and all ideas.  Which might explain why they take the Chorae off, in case Serwa needs to go in, or whoever else is left.  They also have no idea if the Chorae might kill the Insertant or not, so why risk it?

Speaking of the Dunyain all having Anasurimbor blood - I think Bakker is making an effort to counter this argument when he talks about the Twelve Germs (if memory serves), of which the Anasurimbor one is the most promising. Since the Germs are pointedly named as different from each other, I get the idea that the Dunyain in their generational selection quest were strict about keeping the lineages separated.

Yeah, I agree here very much.  I do not believe that all Dunyain are Anasurimbors.  In fact, I think it is very much the opposite case, that they were actively working toward isolating the lineage into that one germline.  Whether that is of some "mystical" importantance or a way of distilling out the distant Nonman relation, who knows though.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 26, 2021, 02:00:32 pm
Well, I was slightly incorrect, it's Kellhus thinking this is why, not them saying it.
It's actually Malowebi thinking it.

In any case though, I am not sure why you think they'd have that time though.
They aren't exactly in a hurry after the System is Resumed, nothing is threatening them by that point (the Ordeal is contained and its Aspect-Emperor is salt). And if there are significant technical issues with affixing the Chorae back on, I would be inclined to believe they are somehow part of the entire design and not just protection. Not that the No-God even needed it to begin with, too - while fully operational it's too high up to reach with Cants. This is why I think the Dunyain did something with the System, it's not exactly the same as it was before, so the removal of the Chorae isn't just a simple precaution, it's perhaps something more ominous.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: H on May 26, 2021, 02:06:37 pm
It's actually Malowebi thinking it.

Oh, yeah, forgot who's perspective we are in there.


They aren't exactly in a hurry after the System is Resumed, nothing is threatening them by that point (the Ordeal is contained and its Aspect-Emperor is salt). And if there are significant technical issues with affixing the Chorae back on, I would be inclined to believe they are somehow part of the entire design and not just protection. Not that the No-God even needed it to begin with, too - while fully operational it's too high up to reach with Cants. This is why I think the Dunyain did something with the System, it's not exactly the same as it was before, so the removal of the Chorae isn't just a simple precaution, it's perhaps something more ominous.

Well, I mean, they likely shouldn't be, but they rush the Sarcophagus right back out there soon after.  We know the Ordeal could hardly do anything to them, but seemingly they are still worried about it and want the No-God to finish them, since they run it out there with little to no delay.  Should they have waited?  Probably, but either they were too eager, or after putting little Kel in, they can't really keep with totally under wraps.

Also they likely can't wait to try little Kel, since they need to know if he works as soon as possible, since there is a real chance that the rest of the kids are out there dead or dying.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 26, 2021, 02:13:00 pm
And this is why I think that they didn't wait because there was nothing to wait for, meaning the Chorae are no longer needed and not just removed for the sake of a prospective Insertant.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: H on May 26, 2021, 02:31:34 pm
And this is why I think that they didn't wait because there was nothing to wait for, meaning the Chorae are no longer needed and not just removed for the sake of a prospective Insertant.

It could be, but it could also be that they really did not fully understand why they were there, or discount the threat that Sorcery could ultimately pose to it.  They might well figure it doesn't matter, since most of the Sorcerers in the "known" world are now dead or dying.  What they don't (and likely could not) realize is that the Sorcery of Zeûm is really strong and that Meppa is not dead.

Ultimately we just can't know, we can only see if this is a sort of Chekov's Gun waiting to be used in some manner or other, or just a red herring.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 26, 2021, 02:33:09 pm
Ultimately we just can't know, we can only see if this is a sort of Chekov's Gun waiting to be used in some manner or other, or just a red herring.
Agreed, but my money are currently on the Dunyain being clever.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: Madness on May 26, 2021, 03:06:21 pm
The Chorae Hoard was not part of the battle algebra last time. For whatever reason, the No-God's resumption causes the Whirlwind and the Mutilated could have accounted for Kellhus collecting the Chorae Hoard from Sakarpus and using it to break Golgotterath's Ward Walls.

The "first" time, the Whirlwind wasn't circulating most of the entire Chorae Hoard around the No-God.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 26, 2021, 03:25:40 pm
That should in all likelihood decrease with time, since random collision events, not to mention the entire thing just can't be that stable (especially while also moving), 'cause, you know, physics.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: H on May 26, 2021, 03:28:31 pm
That should in all likelihood decrease with time, since random collision events, not to mention the entire thing just can't be that stable (especially while also moving), 'cause, you know, physics.

Physics?  This is Eärwa!

I mean, I am thinking this lack of Chorae is going to matter, but it definitely is unclear how or why.  Especially since I am holding fast to my "Mimara answers the No-God" prediction, of course.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: Cnaiür vs Karsa vs Drogo on June 15, 2021, 10:51:43 pm
Is it possible the nonmen leading the sranc army are from ishteribinth? the delegation that shows up to the ordeal says theyre surprised they survived. maybe they were in on it.

Also I never put this together, but it can't be a coincidence that they wanted kelhus to go to dagliash and there happened to be a crazy trap there, all while depriving him of his most trusted sorceress + 2. A very tidy trap now that I think on it.

The glossary states that the delegation was a "false emissary." Not that anyone needed proof that this was part of the trap, but that seems definitive.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: Wilshire on June 17, 2021, 01:35:20 pm
Still not convinced.  I will try to put out my thoughts.  I'm erratic and in sore need of a reread.  If the Celmomian Prophesy is the basis for their "knowledge" of needing Kellhus as an insertant, they are making some intense cognitive leaps (which I guess maybe I can't be expected to understand, them being Dunyain and all).  All the prophesy says is an Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world.  I don't think there's any more to it, since we are shown the scene where Celmomas says it to Seswatha.  That's so vague, it could mean any of the many Anasurimbors running around, why decide on the most difficult to grab?

I would just like to say, yes 1000%.

So much weight is put onto the prophecy, both in the books and in discussion here/elsewhere. But the prophesy itself sucks. In all the iteration we get, it boils down to the section I bolded above. "An Anasurimbor" is the Harbinger of the end, the warning sign that the end is nigh.

If you allow for Kellhus being that Anasurimbor, which I think we aught, the prophecy is fulfilled once Kellhus shows up in the Three Seas halfway into TDTCB.

It most emphatically does not say that an Anasurimbor causes the end of the world.

Physics?  This is Eärwa!

I mean, I am thinking this lack of Chorae is going to matter, but it definitely is unclear how or why.  Especially since I am holding fast to my "Mimara answers the No-God" prediction, of course.
I agree that its more Gun than Herring. It seems a rather unnecessary red herring, and too strange a detail to just throw out there.

That said, they thought it was going to be Kellhus in there. Maybe hoping they could use some metagnosis translocation or something. Now that its Kelmomas who doesn't know any neat spells, it could be for naught and provide an avenue for defeat that wasn't available last time.

As I'm not sure the Heron Spear actually did anything last time, I do think its possible some kind of magic laser ballista scenario this time around with Akka pulling the trigger.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: SmilerLoki on June 17, 2021, 07:41:07 pm
It is possible that the No-God stopped functioning entirely by itself last time, enacting some time shenanigans of the kind that bridges the two iterations of the Apocalypse. Which would certainly explain the fact that the Second Apocalypse at least in some large scale respects closely mirrors the First (so far).
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: H on June 18, 2021, 11:22:09 am
As I'm not sure the Heron Spear actually did anything last time, I do think its possible some kind of magic laser ballista scenario this time around with Akka pulling the trigger.

Well, there is that dream where Akka sees Anaxophus failing to "take up the Spear" and just parroting the No-God's words.  But it is totally unclear if that is a clear vision of the past, or a paranoids corruption of the true.  I guess one thing is that it leaves the Herron Spear well and open to be anything the narrative ends up wanting it to be though.
Title: Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
Post by: Wilshire on June 18, 2021, 03:30:37 pm
As I'm not sure the Heron Spear actually did anything last time, I do think its possible some kind of magic laser ballista scenario this time around with Akka pulling the trigger.
Well, there is that dream where Akka sees Anaxophus failing to "take up the Spear" and just parroting the No-God's words.  But it is totally unclear if that is a clear vision of the past, or a paranoids corruption of the true.  I guess one thing is that it leaves the Herron Spear well and open to be anything the narrative ends up wanting it to be though.
Yeah at this point in time, we know that Bakker is not entirely sure of all the exact details of TNG even as he finished TUC. This could be something he left open to decide later if he needed/wanted to use it.