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Messages - SmilerLoki

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The Unholy Consult / Re: Collapse of Object and Subject
« on: June 21, 2021, 04:38:36 pm »
Well - a twin that murders his twin may do the trick is what I was going for. The murder creating the topoi required to complete the collapse, not just your twin dying as they would've likely encountered such a person through their testing.
One death wouldn't create a topos, though. Moreover, Kelmomas doesn't exhibit any topoi-like qualities, if anything, he exhibits just the opposite.

The Unholy Consult / Re: Collapse of Object and Subject
« on: June 21, 2021, 04:10:51 pm »
Not sure if we've ever figured out why the original insertant and lil' Kel were able to operate TNG. We've been talking about it in Facebook and bringing it here in case some of you are not in the FB group. Could it be that a twin killing their twin causes their consciousness to collapse with their unconsciousness which then makes you invisible to the gods since you wouldn't have a soul any more ( soul destruction? or does it go somewhere? ). If this happens to you, then your conscious and unconscious minds would be objectively aware of each other and can even talk to each other. So the original insertant and the dude 2,000 years ago ( forget his name ) were both twins who murdered their twin, obj/sub collapse, their soul is gone and then can operate TNG. TNG is invisible as well as the insertant is - explains why the Luck Warrior couldn't see Lil' Kel, was invisible to the gods since his ojb/sub collapsed. So back in the day, the Consult couldn't figure this out and just sent a horde of people through trying to find someone who could turn it on. If they knew this was how to make it work, they would've simply found twins and engineered one to murder the other.
One thing that I want to say about  it (it came up on Discord recently) - there is no data points that suggest that there were any Insertants before Nau-Cayuti. Thus, he is the original Insertant.

It is possible that the No-God stopped functioning entirely by itself last time, enacting some time shenanigans of the kind that bridges the two iterations of the Apocalypse. Which would certainly explain the fact that the Second Apocalypse at least in some large scale respects closely mirrors the First (so far).

That should in all likelihood decrease with time, since random collision events, not to mention the entire thing just can't be that stable (especially while also moving), 'cause, you know, physics.

Ultimately we just can't know, we can only see if this is a sort of Chekov's Gun waiting to be used in some manner or other, or just a red herring.
Agreed, but my money are currently on the Dunyain being clever.

And this is why I think that they didn't wait because there was nothing to wait for, meaning the Chorae are no longer needed and not just removed for the sake of a prospective Insertant.

Well, I was slightly incorrect, it's Kellhus thinking this is why, not them saying it.
It's actually Malowebi thinking it.

In any case though, I am not sure why you think they'd have that time though.
They aren't exactly in a hurry after the System is Resumed, nothing is threatening them by that point (the Ordeal is contained and its Aspect-Emperor is salt). And if there are significant technical issues with affixing the Chorae back on, I would be inclined to believe they are somehow part of the entire design and not just protection. Not that the No-God even needed it to begin with, too - while fully operational it's too high up to reach with Cants. This is why I think the Dunyain did something with the System, it's not exactly the same as it was before, so the removal of the Chorae isn't just a simple precaution, it's perhaps something more ominous.

Speaking of the Dunyain all having Anasurimbor blood - I think Bakker is making an effort to counter this argument when he talks about the Twelve Germs (if memory serves), of which the Anasurimbor one is the most promising. Since the Germs are pointedly named as different from each other, I get the idea that the Dunyain in their generational selection quest were strict about keeping the lineages separated.

But they did, it's why they took the Chorae off the Carapace.
I heavily dispute this reasoning. In this case, first, they had enough time to put the Chorae back on after ultimately going with Kelmomas. Second, it is absolutely unclear that the Chorae would even damage the Insertant, since the Carapace is thick enough to serve as protection - the Chorae are on the outside of it, while the Insertant is inside.

I'm firmly on the "not enough data to draw conclusions" train.

Ah, and here's that quote I forgot about!

The Unholy Consult / Re: What's up with the "Second" Inverse Fire
« on: May 05, 2021, 05:03:31 am »
This seems to be about things different - and perhaps more - than simply Hell.

There are some rumors circulating that imply dragons are perhaps living Ciphrang or moving topoi, although for the life of me I cannot find any quotes confirming it.

The Unholy Consult / Re: What's up with the "Second" Inverse Fire
« on: May 04, 2021, 06:56:27 pm »
and there was some mention in the one of the books or Tales that the Inverse Fire never shows the same scene of torment twice...
More specifically, the Inverse Fire is projecting atemporal onto temporal, which isn't going to be in any way straightforward, or even complete, to perceive.

The Unholy Consult / Re: What's up with the "Second" Inverse Fire
« on: May 04, 2021, 01:47:13 pm »
In all fairness, it would be just like Bakker to bait us with a coincidence, no matter how neatly looking.

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