Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2021, 09:51:25 pm »
I'm firmly on the "not enough data to draw conclusions" train.

Wilshire

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« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2021, 12:15:40 am »
What points us to 1? We don't have a whole lot of tests for seeing if something has a soul. Doing sorcery (having a mark, being salted by a chorae) or solving a paradox. That's pretty much it.

Wracu are never described as having a mark or being salted by chorae, so we can infer that they dont do sorcery. That only leaves us with solving a paradox.

OTOH, The No-God controls them so they are similar to all the other weapon races. IIRC that control is because said races don't have souls.

Sranc have language and culture, its mentioned a few times throughout the series but is then dismissed as heresay. I think its pretty safe to assume cultural bias, first by Nonmen and then by Humans, make it a safe bet that Sranc actually do have these things. And they don't have souls.

Skin-spies are complex enough to pass as humans under the closest scrutiny, except by Dunyain and by the halfsies that are trained to see them. They don't have souls.

Wracu don't even have a culture - too few. They speak, but their thoughts run in pretty close circles. Their base obsessions seem similar to the vocalizations you'd get from a calm sranc (if we could understand them).

So to me there's no evidence that even suggests they have souls (with the exception of one cagey response from Bakker shrouded in hypotheticals). On the contrary, everything in the books says that they don't.

Which is why I struggle to see the contrary argument.

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H

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« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2021, 01:19:03 pm »
Well, you are right, I cannot conclusively prove that Wracu have souls, which is why it's a prior, not a conclusion.  However, one thing is not a conclusive "test" though.  Inchoroi came off the Ark with souls, but could not preform sorcery.  So, just notionally having a soul isn't actually enough to use sorcery, which is why they needed to resort to Grafts to see the Onta.  It could well be that Wracu have souls, but not ability to see the Onta.

However, I am willing to concede that I simply take Bakker's extra-textual comment at face value.  But it could readily be the case that, say, only Wutte├Ąt has a soul and all descendent Wracu do not.  I don't know that they text provides anything conclusive either way.  Admittedly, part of this comes, for me personally, from the manner in which Skafra speaks but that hardly proves anything.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira