As an aside, perhaps it is simply that sorcery leaves a Mark only when the sorcerer uses language. I believe Gnostic and Anagogic schools both use dead languages for the Uterals - that's a pretty strong link to a lot of  dead and dawned souls really.

Good observation / theory.

I think the most interesting thing about the Psuke is that it works even though Fane's metaphysics was apparently, in Bakker's words, "the most wrong" of all the systems espoused across Earwa.

Very interesting nugget. Where did Bakker mention this? Was it some Q&A session? Prior to the GO and Unholy Consult, I used to think that maybe of all the metaphysical systems, the Fanim's creed might be the correct one. Their sorcerers have no mark and we have seen no evidence of damnation in their worldview. So embracing the Solitary God might be a plausible way of salvation. Also to me it felt appropriate that the other gods are merely daemons, hungers in the void (outside) a la Warhammer 40k lore, but beyond that there is one deity which can be even remotely benevolent.

(and an interesting aside for me, since I take interest in the religion and politics of the Middle East, is that it would be yet another inversion, of our western Christian-influenced worldview, since the system that mostly reflects Islam would be the "correct" one, as opposed the system that echoes Christianity - with elements of Hinduism. As it turns out this is merely my own biases being read into the text  By the way I am an atheist, even though I was raised Christian (Orthodox), but I have a fascination with Islam from a political and sociological point of view).

So Bakker saying that the Fanim are also wrong (surprise, surprise) destroys this crackpot theory of mine.

I also agree we need more psukhe.

I feel there is lots of potential to be explored there.

Maybe a combo of psukhe and gnosis will be able to perform feats no one thought.

Or maybe psukhe can harm the No-God? There was no psukhe during the First Apocalypse and no protection against it was ever thought. Obviously Chorae protect against psukhic (?) magic but maybe it can perform tricks that can bypass that.

Also now the sarcophagus has no chorae, which means the No-God can be vulnerable to magic. Which means Quya magic with lots of meta-gnosis might be able to pull the trick.

Secretly I hope that Achamian in his old age will be able to act as Seswatha's reincarnation and despite his obvious flaws act as the catalyst that brings together the different forces required to defeat the No-God.

 

Speaking of Conditioned Ground, the encounter in TTT between Kellhus and Moenghus in retrospect foreshadows the taking over of the Consult by the Dunyain.

Kellhus sees that his father will aligned himself with the Consult to save his soul and will try to assassinate him, and that is when he decides to dispose of his father. And he tells him the enigmatic, I am more (presumably) by that time his interaction with Ajoklis is already in place.

Thus Kellhus in his probability trance predicts the possibility of some Dunyain joining the Consult in order to save themselves.

It would be cool to know how the whole extermination thing worked on other planets.

Did they use the No-God on other worlds?

Was the No-God something they invented specifically in Earwa?

Quote from: Khaine on August 10, 2017, 10:34:45 am

Quote from: The Sharmat on August 10, 2017, 09:59:43 am

I guess until they've done it, they're operating on theory. At least their makers seem to have predicted some of the attributes of the promised world. That's a good indication they have at least some idea what's up.

What if everything is just one grand rationalisation to justify their hedonistic and genocidal ways?


How could they know from before about a promised world, especially when they have tried the experiment (presumably) other times and they failed? All we have is a forgotten prophecy of a species that has been driven to the edge of annihilation in charge of technology they barely understand.

It is just a projection to justify their depraved nature which has been hollowed out by the unattainable pursuit of the absolute of salvation. There is no salvation, there is no justice, just the gods eating the souls of the living.

I can only assume their understanding of metaphysics has given the progenitors reason to believe that such a thing exists. At least some of their predictions have born out.

Plus, y'know, not much of a theme to the series otherwise.

My reading is that all efforts to achieve the great themes of the series, such as pursuit of the Absolute, Salvation, following Heroic leaders, living and dying by the Book fail and quite possibly have always been in vain.

The Inchoroi drove themselves to extinction in their quest to reach salvation.

The Dunyain despite their efforts to master all circumstances, were destroyed by ancient aliens who used magic and genetically engineered beasts (two possibilities that the Logos could not predict) and then the last survivors of the Order succumbed to an even greater evil.

Kellhus despite his meta-gnosis and his infernal pact with Ajoklis is undone in the moment of his triumph. And we don't even know if his plan would have worked. In any case the TTT couldn't take him beyond the Golden Room. So even TTT fails and subsequently failed Kellhus.

Proyas lived his whole life trying to be pious, and we know how that turned out.

Achamian the scholar and the sceptic, despite his hatred for Kellhus in the end sort of believes that maybe the Aspect-Emperor had plan. But if Achamian was to find out what actually took place in the Golden Room his assessment for Kellhus could easily be revised to something negative again.

Esmenet the only person who may be holy, as per the Judging Eye, has given birth to a monstrous family and her husband was plotting to become the Avatar of the God of Deceit. It doesn't get more ironic than this.

All grand designs come to nothing, nothing goes according to plan.

I suspect that the Second Apocalypse, which I guess will the subject matter of the third series, will fail to seal off the world. Which then leads back to the original question, if no world was ever successfully shut, why do these crazy aliens keep attempting the same genocidal action every time? Isn't the definition of madness to keep doing the same thing but expecting a different outcome?

 

There's a passage in TGO stating that the Nonmen of Viri only indulged in the daimos of 'elhusioli' during and after a hunt (and that this attracted the attention of Husyelt). The Nonmen seem to use (small-d) 'daimos' in the same way the Greeks did, to refer to a concept that can move one's soul (which in the Outside would be personified as an Agency) such as 'love', 'rage', 'sorrow' or whatever.

Incidentally, 'elhysioloi' means 'attractants' (for example, pheromones) in Greek.

Which Greek word you have in mind, because when transcribed in Latin letters makes no sense to me.

Incidentally the word daemon originally did not have negative connotations. Aristotle spoke of eudaimonia as the natural telos of humankind. 

 I think it was in the Church / Christian tradition that the word daemon acquires its negative meaning. 

I guess until they've done it, they're operating on theory. At least their makers seem to have predicted some of the attributes of the promised world. That's a good indication they have at least some idea what's up.

What if everything is just one grand rationalisation to justify their hedonistic and genocidal ways?


How could they know from before about a promised world, especially when they have tried the experiment (presumably) other times and they failed? All we have is a forgotten prophecy of a species that has been driven to the edge of annihilation in charge of technology they barely understand.

It is just a projection to justify their depraved nature which has been hollowed out by the unattainable pursuit of the absolute of salvation. There is no salvation, there is no justice, just the gods eating the souls of the living.