[TUC SPOILERS] The No-God's abilities

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profgrape

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« on: August 03, 2017, 04:09:47 pm »
In TUC, we get solid evidence that the Gods cannot apprehend the No-God.  But we've also gotten evidence that the No-God has the ability to disrupt or dispel "God-power".

Kelmomas' disrupting the WLW in TGO can be chalked up to the former; as an agent of Yatwer, the WLW was similarly blind and therefore surprised by Kelmomas' presence.  You could also make the argument that the same thing happens at the end of TUC when he surprises Ajokli.

But the fact that Kelmomas is the only person to see through Sorweel's mask demonstrates a different manifestation of his abilities.  And the thing that I'm wondering is if this provides a hint to the nature of the Gods' power. 

Based on what we've seen, the Gods are able to directly alter reality and presumably, do so without any Mark.  Hell, that sorcerers are damned might just be due to the fact that the Gods don't want anyone trying to move in on their territory. 

What's interesting about the No-God "dispelling" this manipulation, however, is that it only affects "God-power" and not sorcery.  This makes me wonder if "God-power" directly hacks the Subject-Object relationship and because the NG is invisible to them, there's no Subject and therefore no relationship to hack?

Curious to hear other thoughts on this...

Walter

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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2017, 12:48:39 pm »
God-power is the God singing with its own voice.  It is Markless, because if it 'of a piece', if you will, with the rest of creation.  However, the key point of it is that the controlling entity is Outside.

The WLW and similar divine ploys are atemporal interventions, inserted into the Inside as whole timelines.  Everything they do is destined, they can see their past/future, etc.

But the No-God is the end of time.  Its actions, and those of its slaves, make the world anew every time.  As soon as it impacts the timeline of a divine agent, that timeline no longer 'fits' in with the rest of the world, and is disrupted.

Sorcery, by contrast, is a part of the world, same as rocks and people.  The No-God doesn't disrupt it for the same reason it doesn't tear the air around it apart.  That is not its function.  The actions of the Few don't rely on the Outside/Inside congruity, and therefore are not automatically voided in the No-God's presence.

Madness

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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2017, 02:17:20 pm »
I will note that Duskweaver (wherever you are, friend) long ago distinguished God-power from sorcery as "thaumaturgy."

EDIT: Though, I will say, it is possible that Kellhus learned to work sorcery without the Mark... I'd have to check some TGO passages to find evidence.

And Bakker did confirm in the AMA that Titirga managed some combination of Psukhe and Gnosis.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 02:19:15 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2017, 11:33:08 am »
Maybe I am thinking too simply, but it wasn't really a "power of the No-God" that allowed Kelmomas to undue Yatwer's plan.

Kelmomas just happens to be the No-God and by virtue of that fact is outside the god's influence.  Therefor, Her deception is not effective on him.  He doesn't undue Her deception though, because everyone still sees Sorweel as innocent, he simply doesn't fall for it is therefor able to act.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2017, 07:24:31 pm »
And Bakker did confirm in the AMA that Titirga managed some combination of Psukhe and Gnosis.
Now I'm torn between Serwa dying early in the next book or miraculously surviving her injuries but being rendered blind.

Woden

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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2017, 07:28:00 pm »
And Bakker did confirm in the AMA that Titirga managed some combination of Psukhe and Gnosis.
Now I'm torn between Serwa dying early in the next book or miraculously surviving her injuries but being rendered blind.

THIS.

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Duskweaver

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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2017, 08:42:02 pm »
Nah. A Dunyain - even a badass half-Dunyain dragon-slaying witch - would be rubbish at the Psuke. Their passions are too stunted. Even though she really did love Sorweel.
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Likaro

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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2017, 08:50:27 pm »
I'll say it again, Bakker shouldn't have killed Sorweel. It made his whole arc feel so pointless and fatalistic--- and he and Serwa would have been an interesting power couple in the Apocalypse 2.0 era.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2017, 08:53:03 pm »
power couple
I don't think this term is at all in line with the spirit of the series.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2017, 09:06:40 pm »
I'm still not sure we're done with Sorweel. It's totally irrational but as it is the end feels pointless even by a "the pointlessness is the point" metric.

Nah. A Dunyain - even a badass half-Dunyain dragon-slaying witch - would be rubbish at the Psuke. Their passions are too stunted. Even though she really did love Sorweel.
I'm not sure her passions are stunted at all.

Likaro

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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2017, 09:23:06 pm »
Esmenet did say that Serwa was capable of love but then she was whisked away to the Swayali so she missed out on that

Duskweaver

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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2017, 09:31:11 pm »
I'm still not sure we're done with Sorweel. It's totally irrational but as it is the end feels pointless even by a "the pointlessness is the point" metric.
It's interesting to me that Mimara's waters break at the exact moment Sorweel dies. "Her mother has her. Her mother has her." And then we immediately switch to Sorweel's PoV, which ends with Yatwer / his own mother saying: "I have you, Sweetling."

Might just be a bit of poetic juxtaposition. Or Bakker is telling us something.

Quote
I'm not sure her passions are stunted at all.
You might have a point there. Serwa does seem the most human of Kellhus' children, doesn't she?
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

Duskweaver

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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2017, 09:32:37 pm »
Esmenet did say that Serwa was capable of love but then she was whisked away to the Swayali so she missed out on that
Yes, but I think it's pretty clear Esmenet is a bad judge of character when it comes to her children. ;)
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

Likaro

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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2017, 10:18:38 pm »
Indeed, she is a bad judge of character. But she can sense clearly if they are capable of emotion. Kel might be a murderous little bastard but he is capable of love.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2017, 10:20:43 pm »
Serwa seems to have gotten the best mix. The feeble Dunyain will of Inrilatas and Kelmomas/Samarmas wasn't enough to allow normal function given a human emotional range. Kayutas and Thelli seem to have the opposite problem. There might be a theme lurking here.