[JerakoKayne]

This is perhaps my greatest question, regarding this series. Damn near everyone is damned (pardon the pun). Everyone. Save perhaps jealous favorites? Extratextual comments (and I haven't seen them all) seemed to be a very dismissive suggestion that the Gods are, quite simply,  "capricious". If there's more to it, I'm interested, but otherwise "salvation" seems no more than a whim, so far.

I wonder how much of it is that, in the author's view anyway, everything's just fuckin damned anyway. We have textual reason enough for that; the Gods have a feast. But why are people even saved, except that it feels good? What the fuck does "salvation" matter, to a soul such the author's to whom salvation seems meaningless? Is there even meaning in looking for it, or is the philosophy presented just self-effacing nihilism?

[Madness]

This is perhaps my greatest question, regarding this series. Damn near everyone is damned (pardon the pun). Everyone. Save perhaps jealous favorites? Extratextual comments (and I haven't seen them all) seemed to be a very dismissive suggestion that the Gods are, quite simply,  "capricious". If there's more to it, I'm interested, but otherwise "salvation" seems no more than a whim, so far.

I wonder how much of it is that, in the author's view anyway, everything's just fuckin damned anyway. We have textual reason enough for that; the Gods have a feast. But why are people even saved, except that it feels good? What the fuck does "salvation" matter, to a soul such the author's to whom salvation seems meaningless? Is there even meaning in looking for it, or is the philosophy presented just self-effacing nihilism?

Of the three options Bakker mentioned long ago on ZTS, Redemption is the only one we haven't seen born out in text - as Bakker confirmed that that one Nonman Erratic in TUC did.

[Yellow]

What about Esmenet?

[Madness]

We just don't know what the Judging Eye is yet.

It's fairly clear to me that Mimara's arc in TAE is about a "Prophetess Coming-Of-Age" story (as is Achamian's the "moving from the doubter to Wizard" narrative). Overly simplifying but TJE is about wanting to be a Witch more than anything. WLW she has some serious Judging Eye moments that she obviously hadn't experience before and has to digest, along with the dispersing the Wight of the Mountain. In TGO she settles Achamian's debate about Judging Eye vs. Dunyain and that Dunyain subsequently claims, in second person even, that she is the key to All-Things (bp). In TUC, she recognizes that her place is among the Damned and that the Ordeal and its horror is hers.

So in the case of Mimara seeing Esmenet as "saved," I just think we're supposed to know what that means by the end of TAE.

[Dora Vee]

I think Esmenet and Sorweel count as among the saved. So, that's Salvation. Redemption is something different. Why would you need to redeem someone like Sorweel?

[Madness]

One of the aphorisms that opens The False Sun, as well as the passage of Kellhus in the Outside in TGO, seem to suggest that the Heavens and Hells are of the same... taste.

[natanaj]

Tbh I just thought it was because even though kellhus is a cold-hearted mofo, he still feels a bit of empathy.

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[stuslayer]

Here's a thought - and I haven't looked through any other threads to see if it's already been thought of so apologies if it has. What if Kel's continued presence after TUC (dead but not done) is to become the life dreamed of by Metagnostic sorcerers, replacing Seswatha? Maybe this is how he will continue to direct the men of the Circumfix during TNG?

[MSJ]

👆, Very clever! I have never, ever heard that before...anywhere.

[stuslayer]

Thanks!  Now I feel like I belong here!

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

Here's a thought - and I haven't looked through any other threads to see if it's already been thought of so apologies if it has. What if Kel's continued presence after TUC (dead but not done) is to become the life dreamed of by Metagnostic sorcerers, replacing Seswatha? Maybe this is how he will continue to direct the men of the Circumfix during TNG?

I love this idea, even if I don't think it's very likely it will happen. After all, Kellhus would have had to leave an artifact of some sort for this to work, like Seswatha did. What do you propose this was, and how/when could it have happened? (Not trying to shoot down your theory, just genuinely curious about how it could work.)

If it does happen, I do wonder if an Akka parallel would pop up down the line, subverting the "Kellhus never shits spends several days thinking about twigs and fish" idea.

[stuslayer]

Well, I think there are a number of options. It could be the 2nd Decapitant, retrieved by Serwa in the pandemonium during Resumption. Or perhaps a piece of Kel's salted corpse. Or perhaps Serwe's heart, that has unbeknownst to us been sequestered in the home of the Metagnostic sorcerers. Or even Kel has ousted Seswatha and replaced him in the Dreams directly, and Achamian will be the first to Dream Kellhus.

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

Well, I think there are a number of options. It could be the 2nd Decapitant, retrieved by Serwa in the pandemonium during Resumption. Or perhaps a piece of Kel's salted corpse. Or perhaps Serwe's heart, that has unbeknownst to us been sequestered in the home of the Metagnostic sorcerers. Or even Kel has ousted Seswatha and replaced him in the Dreams directly, and Achamian will be the first to Dream Kellhus.

Ah, the second Decapitant - that hadn't occurred to me, but it makes sense. The Decapitant seems, to me, to be the more likely possibility of the 3 you pointed out. It'd be quite hard for "Team Kellhus" to get a hold of his salted corpse now, since it's right in the stronghold of the Consult. And who even knows where Serwë's heart could be right now if it was preserved somehow (Carythusal? The Mandate took residence there post-Shimeh if I remember correctly, would make thematic sense).
Achamian would be in for quite a surprise if this theory turns out to be true and he suddenly finds himself having a Dream from Kellhus' POV...

[MSJ]

And who even knows where Serwë's heart could be right now if it was preserved somehow (Carythusal? The Mandate took residence there post-Shimeh if I remember correctly, would make thematic sense).
Achamian would be in for quite a surprise if this theory turns out to be true and he suddenly finds himself having a Dream from Kellhus' POV...

Nah, Serwe heart was burn up at the Circumfix, did you mean Seswatha? Could be Kellhus seen all he needed to know when doing his knife trick on Akka. I agree, it would likely be the decapitant. Damn, I love this, therefore will not come true.  

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

Nah, Serwe heart was burn up at the Circumfix, did you mean Seswatha? Could be Kellhus seen all he needed to know when doing his knife trick on Akka. I agree, it would likely be the decapitant. Damn, I love this, therefore will not come true.

I thought we didn't know what had happened to it after Kellhus pulled it from his chest. Guess I completely forgot about it being burned, then...
Then the Decapitant really is the most likely possibility. Though I still think that Carythusal and the Mandate might be involved if Kellhus did indeed follow Seswatha's example. There might be something there, I don't know, instructions, or just information of some kind about the process.
That's just one of the TSA rules, MSJ. If you really want it to happen, it probably won't. It's right there next to "think of the worst thing that could possibly happen, that's probably it" and "if you like this character, they're probably going to die horribly".