Can one's fate in the Outside be changed by that the gods can't see?

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obstinate

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« on: July 19, 2018, 12:45:55 pm »
It seems like the answer must be yes. Rather I should say that the Consult believes it can be. If they did not believe it could be, they would probably be working on eternal or as-long-as-possible life extension technologies and not bothering with Earwa.

This also means that Kellhus' beliefs about his fate in the outside, as observed in the Inverse Fire, might be inaccurate. It's not clear what determines whether one descends as a hunger. But I'd guess the accumulation of power and possibly arcane might are involved. Did he accumulate enough before Kelmomas, invisibly to the gods, caused his demise?

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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2018, 02:09:54 pm »
I'm not quite sure what you are proposing?

That sins committed out of the view of the gods don't damn one's soul?

I don't think this is true.  Once the No-God is active, we are told that the gods can still see, they are simply cut off from the harvesting of souls.  Ergo, it would seem to stand to reason that you soul is still damned, it just never gets reaped by a god, if the No-God intercedes.  This also explains the still-births, being that the Great Cycle of Souls does indeed cease to function while the No-God is active.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2018, 02:18:06 pm »
It seems like the answer must be yes. Rather I should say that the Consult believes it can be. If they did not believe it could be, they would probably be working on eternal or as-long-as-possible life extension technologies and not bothering with Earwa.

This also means that Kellhus' beliefs about his fate in the outside, as observed in the Inverse Fire, might be inaccurate. It's not clear what determines whether one descends as a hunger. But I'd guess the accumulation of power and possibly arcane might are involved. Did he accumulate enough before Kelmomas, invisibly to the gods, caused his demise?
Not per se, but Eternity itself can be changed, i.e. Kellhus spoke true at least at the instant of him uttering those words, but later events caused by the No-God might've changed it I think. It's hard to say.

H

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« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2018, 11:28:37 am »
I just realized, rereading this now that I think I misunderstood the intent of the tread.

I mean, my earlier post asked about if sins unseen still damn, which I actually think I am wrong on, because I twisted the question in my head.  The Nonmen dug deep for reasons, one of which was to avoid the sight of the gods.  So, indeed, it seems logical that sins committed out of sight are unknown.  But that wasn't the question.

I think the question was, does being out of sight keep you from being damned?  And to this, I think the answer is actually still no.  It's why it is important that the No-God stops the cycle of souls, but doesn't actually "blind" the gods.  Sin marks you.  Once marked, you stay that way, until absolved somehow or you die.  What the No-God does isn't absolution though, it's annihilation.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

SuJuroit

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« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2018, 05:54:26 pm »
I just realized, rereading this now that I think I misunderstood the intent of the tread.

I mean, my earlier post asked about if sins unseen still damn, which I actually think I am wrong on, because I twisted the question in my head.  The Nonmen dug deep for reasons, one of which was to avoid the sight of the gods.  So, indeed, it seems logical that sins committed out of sight are unknown.  But that wasn't the question.

I think the question was, does being out of sight keep you from being damned?  And to this, I think the answer is actually still no.  It's why it is important that the No-God stops the cycle of souls, but doesn't actually "blind" the gods.  Sin marks you.  Once marked, you stay that way, until absolved somehow or you die.  What the No-God does isn't absolution though, it's annihilation.

This sort of stuff is frustrating because it highlights how little we really know about the mechanics of sin and damnation.  How does sin "attach" to your soul?  Can you sin without being marked or stained if you do it where the gods (or The God) can't see?  Do such places exist?  Does Mimara's Judging Eye actually see with the eye of The God?  What's the difference between what Mimara sees with the Judging Eye and what the gods (lowercase) see? 

Wilshire

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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2018, 03:45:34 pm »
This sort of stuff is frustrating because it highlights how little we really know about the mechanics of sin and damnation. 
It is a shame that TUC didn't give us more information. I hope the other books get published at some point. But a full year of radio silence does not seem hopeful lol.
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H

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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2018, 05:02:18 pm »
It is a shame that TUC didn't give us more information. I hope the other books get published at some point. But a full year of radio silence does not seem hopeful lol.

Oh, ye of little faith....

What's a year for us Veterens of The Slog?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2018, 06:22:43 pm »
It is a shame that TUC didn't give us more information. I hope the other books get published at some point. But a full year of radio silence does not seem hopeful lol.

Oh, ye of little faith....

What's a year for us Veterans of The Slog?
Oh its not the years I'm worried about. Its peolple. Specifically, Bakker and Publishers. Though, assuming no more kids, another 15ish years and he'll be empty-nesting and looking for something to fill the time with.
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