[themerchant]

The non-man creation story is about running from the gods. So they existed in the minds of the non-men in their oldest stories.

So we probably do "know" the gods existed before arkfall or the concept did anyway.

[stuslayer]

Again, I agree - my point is purely about Ajokli's place in the Earwan pantheon, and his ultimate origin being different to that of the rest of the Hundred.

[SmilerLoki]

I'm not sure the question of Ajokli existing before the Arkfall makes sense considering the atemporal nature of the Gods and the Outside. The Gods existed "always" from the temporal perspective, and by virtue of their atemporal nature they see everything they can see, so they also existed "everywhere".

It doesn't strictly disproves this theory, though, just requires it to be formulated differently.

[Wilshire]

Its certainly an interesting thought. Ajokli's nature of not being like the other gods is probably meaningful.

Maybe he was the first/only mortal being to ascend from moral to god status on death. Though that this happened on a world other than Earwa and was some nameless alien doesn't make for as compelling a narrative. Though, it does work well with the idea that Ajokli made the IF, etc. etc., so I like the though in concept.

[CiphrangBarbeque]

I mean, it is plausible, but while some of Ajokli's traits certainly line up, others really do not.  So, where Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, he is also a trickster, something that doesn't really describe Cnaiur.  I think, more likely, is that Ajokli takes the mantle of Cnaiur because there is overlap and so, in that sense, there is an "opening" for which Ajokli can come through.

I agree. I would be a little disappointed if Ajokli was Cnaiur in truth. As bad as he was, he had some principles and focused his hate mostly on the Dunyain. To become the greatest evil known to man would be surprising to me. Ajokli also tries to ally with the four mutilated Dunyain which I cannot imagine Cnaiur going along with.. unless it was trickery, which does not fit well with his character... I don't know, perhaps Godhood scrubbed away his personality. That would be kind of a let-down.

Hopefully, he becomes a separate entity in Hell. One which may challenge Ajokli for ruler-ship of Hell 

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

I agree. I would be a little disappointed if Ajokli was Cnaiur in truth. As bad as he was, he had some principles and focused his hate mostly on the Dunyain. To become the greatest evil known to man would be surprising to me. Ajokli also tries to ally with the four mutilated Dunyain which I cannot imagine Cnaiur going along with.. unless it was trickery, which does not fit well with his character... I don't know, perhaps Godhood scrubbed away his personality. That would be kind of a let-down.

First of all, welcome to the forum!

I would agree to you only when it comes to Cnaiür in PON. Cnaiür in TAE seems to have lost what few redeeming characteristics he had before (of course, this may be subjective).

I could see Ajokli-Cnaiür "allying" with the Dûnyain as trickery. He did convince the Serwë skin-spy he was going to fight for the Consult, so it's not completely without precedent.
And/or becoming Ajokli could have warped original Cnaiür's personality to an extent, yes (which I suggested as a possibility before in this thread). The trickery hypothesis does seem to be more satisfying, doesn't it?

Hopefully, he becomes a separate entity in Hell. One which may challenge Ajokli for ruler-ship of Hell 

Another interesting possibility...but if Ciphrang-Cnaiür was to challenge Ajokli and win, wouldn't he have always been "Ajokli" due to the Gods' nature anyway?

[SuJuroit]

I mean, it is plausible, but while some of Ajokli's traits certainly line up, others really do not.  So, where Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, he is also a trickster, something that doesn't really describe Cnaiur.  I think, more likely, is that Ajokli takes the mantle of Cnaiur because there is overlap and so, in that sense, there is an "opening" for which Ajokli can come through.

I agree. I would be a little disappointed if Ajokli was Cnaiur in truth. As bad as he was, he had some principles and focused his hate mostly on the Dunyain. To become the greatest evil known to man would be surprising to me. Ajokli also tries to ally with the four mutilated Dunyain which I cannot imagine Cnaiur going along with.. unless it was trickery, which does not fit well with his character... I don't know, perhaps Godhood scrubbed away his personality. That would be kind of a let-down.

Hopefully, he becomes a separate entity in Hell. One which may challenge Ajokli for ruler-ship of Hell 

I didn't really see Ajokli's behavior with the Mutilated in the Golden Room as "allying" so much as "dominating".  It was basically a case of, "I'm boss ape and this is how it's gonna be.  What's that, you got something to say?  *HEAD ASPLODES*  Any other comments, questions, criticisms?  No?  Great, let's start harvesting some suffering."

[CiphrangBarbeque]

You both make good points SuJuroit and ThoughtsOfThelli. Damn, Kellhus REALLY should have killed him when he had the chance. Talk about a decision you a live to regret..

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

You both make good points SuJuroit and ThoughtsOfThelli. Damn, Kellhus REALLY should have killed him when he had the chance. Talk about a decision you a live to regret..

Just one of the things that shows us that Kellhus is not infallible.

[TaoHorror]

You both make good points SuJuroit and ThoughtsOfThelli. Damn, Kellhus REALLY should have killed him when he had the chance. Talk about a decision you a live to regret..

Just one of the things that shows us that Kellhus is not infallible.

My favorite tautology comes to mind ... maybe, maybe not. Could be Kellhus was completely in the dark about little Kel, but I think he had plans for that little fucker - "appears" Kellhus misplayed his hand, but I'm open to him being proud his son stepped up 

The game is not up - salted, but not done.

[Wilshire]

The game is not up - salted, but not done.[/color]

What you're saying is to take the salt ... with a grain of salt?

I'd caution everyone to try not to become salty. Some salt adds flavor but too much can ruin the dish. And, if we're talking about Kellhus here, its probably a dish best served cold. We're constructing quite an entree here.

...

[TaoHorror]

Think I'll add that to my vocabulary - "honey, can you please pass the Kellhus?"

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

Think I'll add that to my vocabulary - "honey, can you please pass the Kellhus?"

Be careful, excess Kellhus in your diet might lead to hypertension.

[Wilshire]

Some kind of cold salted pasta dish, probably pretty severe tasting though.

[Simas Polchias]

So, here is my idea. In my reading it make sens that Cnaïur isn't possessed by Ajokli at the end as I can read in many places, but instead become Ajokli.

So... If IF is the portal to the Ajokli's domain and Ajokli ascended on Earwa, wasn't that the very reason inchoroi recognized that Earwa as promised land?

I have trouble imagining that both of them became Ajokli in any shared way. That particular god doesn't war against itself but with others.

Ajoklikellhus dutifuly helps with the plan, but Ajoklicnaiur spreads the fuckery all over it! Bonus points if these two guys never meet each other -- so Ajoklicknealiluhrus doesn't understand why people call him the trickster. To put it shortly, Ajokli is a mad god.

But, all signs in the book point to the Gods existing before Arkfall, why else would it be the promised land??

It's a retroactive existence. There were no gods before Arkfall, but afther Arkfall they were always before Arkfall.