[TUC Spoilers] How did the Inchoroi come think Earwa was the promised land?

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Wilshire

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« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2018, 03:52:27 pm »
If the IF was magic, it wouldn't work on anarcane ground, right? So it wouldn't work on the progenitors world, and it wouldn't have made them discover the outside.
If we knew anything about anarcane ground, I'd speculate one way or the other, but that's more of a mystery than anything else.

I'll agree that if no sorcery of any kind, no magic, no gods, no aporetic sorcery, nothing at all of that nature, 'works' on anarcane ground, then neither would the IF.

I don't agree with that premise, but if that's your starting conditions, then there's nothing further to speculate.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 03:59:24 pm by Wilshire »
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Jabberwock03

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« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2018, 03:58:29 pm »
If the IF was magic, it wouldn't work on anarcane ground, right? So it wouldn't work on the progenitors world, and it wouldn't have made them discover the outside.
If we knew anything about anarcane ground, I'd speculate one way or the other, but that's more of a mystery than anything else.

I'll agree that if no sorcery of any kind, no magic, no gods, no aporetic sorcery, nothing at all of that nature, 'works' on anarcane ground, then neither would the IF.

I don't agree with that premise, but if that's your starting conditions, then there's nothing further to speculate.

Isn't it precisely the reason why the consult didn't attacked Atrithau?

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2018, 03:59:31 pm »
Everything is conjecture ;p;
The books themselves aren't, or we simply have nothing to discuss.

Other than what i pointed out you mean, which is the fact that it  only works on Earwa, which just happens to be the only place in the universe that uses magic, and that the Inchoroi couldn't get it working until they had a brilliant Magi working for them.
Additionally, Achamian and Mimara have seen the No-God, described it, and no Mark is mentioned.

Also, some theories postulate that the No-God very much worked on other worlds, though I'm not a fan of this line of thinking.

I'd argue that makes magic more likely, not less, considering that removing chorae means more magic can be used - whereas the use of chorae are a special kind of negative-magic that one might argue doesn't count. But irrelevant since the chorae are removed.
The Chorae are either protection or part of the System. In the former case the No-God itself needs to be created by Emilidis to be magic, since he is the only sorcerer able to create magical artifacts immune to Chorae. That puts huge strain on your theory. The latter case would mean that without the Chorae the No-God can't function, which is evidently not so.

I assume grafting works on mundane knowledge of fancy genetic engineering. Noteworthy that no matter how smart, and born with the ability to see the onta, Kellhus was unable to do sorcery until taught.
Until the Grafting the Inchoroi couldn't use sorcery at all, even if taught. They took Nonmen prisoners, seduced the Aporitics, they had access to teachers, and the Grafting was still required. By your own definition they did something mundane that created magical results, i.e. the ability to use sorcery.

To me, genetic manipulation and augmented sensory inputs via technology is mundane in a way that creating energy and matter from nothing and manipulating the world with thoughts is strictly magical. Like being able to change your eyes so that you can see infrared light (mundane) - this doesn't let you control the heat and reverse entropy with your thoughts (magic).
I also feel you're confusing Earwa and our world in your arguments. In Earwa, Tekne and sorcery are both mundane. They are explicitly allowed by the Earwan laws of nature. In our world, we presume (which is the right thing to do until exhaustively proven otherwise) that sorcery is disallowed, "magic", using your terminology.

There is nothing magic in that sense in Earwa. At least nothing we are explicitly aware of.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 04:01:15 pm by SmilerLoki »

Wilshire

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« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2018, 04:01:48 pm »
To clarify, I would think that Divine Magic (a la Kellhus' levitation and such), the Gods themselves (Ajokli Earthquote stomp and chorae manipulation), and probably the Psuke (markless sorcery), all of which create/do magic that is indistinguishable from nature and therefore The God (whatever that is) would be able to perform some amount of magic on anarcane ground.

If the IF was magic, it wouldn't work on anarcane ground, right? So it wouldn't work on the progenitors world, and it wouldn't have made them discover the outside.
If we knew anything about anarcane ground, I'd speculate one way or the other, but that's more of a mystery than anything else.

I'll agree that if no sorcery of any kind, no magic, no gods, no aporetic sorcery, nothing at all of that nature, 'works' on anarcane ground, then neither would the IF.

I don't agree with that premise, but if that's your starting conditions, then there's nothing further to speculate.

Isn't it precisely the reason why the consult didn't attacked Atrithau?
Technically, its speculated that the No-God didnt attack Atrithau for that reason, though we know the Consult don't control the No-God directly.

It is mentioned that the Consult probably avoided it because the No-God avoided it, and that since they themselves rely heavily on magic that they were wary of it. Though, as I said above, they didn't have the psuke, are not gods, and do not have the divine magic that Kellhus does.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2018, 04:07:55 pm »
If the IF was magic, it wouldn't work on anarcane ground, right? So it wouldn't work on the progenitors world, and it wouldn't have made them discover the outside.
If we knew anything about anarcane ground, I'd speculate one way or the other, but that's more of a mystery than anything else.

I'll agree that if no sorcery of any kind, no magic, no gods, no aporetic sorcery, nothing at all of that nature, 'works' on anarcane ground, then neither would the IF.

I don't agree with that premise, but if that's your starting conditions, then there's nothing further to speculate.
To be clear, when addressing this point I presume that Wilshire's theory requires the Inverse Fire to be divine, which might work on anarcane grounds. For example, the divine is not hindered by Chorae, as evidenced by Ajokli pinning the skin-spies in the Golden Room to the floor.

But I would heavily dispute Psukhe, since it's very much vulnerable to Chorae despite being Markless.

Kellhus's Markless sorcery I'm now forced to consider divine influence, since Bakker doesn't want to ratify his words about it being powered by the supreme understanding of sorcery Kellhus has acquired.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 04:50:10 pm by SmilerLoki »

Wilshire

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« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2018, 04:12:41 pm »
There is nothing magic in that sense in Earwa. At least nothing we are explicitly aware of.
If that's the case we're not having a discussion about anything. Everything is mundane.

I disagree there is no difference, but as with Jabberwock03, if that's your starting condition then there's nothing at all to discuss.

Everything is conjecture ;p;

The books themselves aren't, or we simply have nothing to discuss.
If the books were clear, there'd be nothing to discuss as we'd all agree.
I'm going to assume this is not the case.

Other than what i pointed out you mean, which is the fact that it  only works on Earwa, which just happens to be the only place in the universe that uses magic, and that the Inchoroi couldn't get it working until they had a brilliant Magi working for them.
Additionally, Achamian and Mimara have seen the No-God, described it, and no Mark is mentioned.
Fair point.
The only thing I can say is that what's inside and whats visible on the outside are not the same? I don't think most sorcery is visible through solid walls, except chorae.

Also, some theories postulate that the No-God very much worked on other worlds, though I'm not a fan of this line of thinking.
Ah, conjecture about what's in the books and how things work. lol. I agree that some postulate that, and I don't agree either. It doesn't jive with how I see thigns working in Earwa.

I'd argue that makes magic more likely, not less, considering that removing chorae means more magic can be used - whereas the use of chorae are a special kind of negative-magic that one might argue doesn't count. But irrelevant since the chorae are removed.
The Chorae are either protection or part of the System.
Could be both.

The latter case would mean that without the Chorae the No-God can't function, which is evidently not so.
Or that it requires sorcery but not necessarily aporetic/chorae.
Again, all I can say is that maybe the mark wasn't visible as whatever was magical was contained within.

Though my only issue with this is that then there's not reason for it not to have worked on other wolds, which I find confusing.


I assume grafting works on mundane knowledge of fancy genetic engineering. Noteworthy that no matter how smart, and born with the ability to see the onta, Kellhus was unable to do sorcery until taught.
Until the Grafting the Inchoroi couldn't use sorcery at all, even if taught. They took Nonmen prisoners, seduced the Aporitics, they had access to teachers, and the Grafting was still required. By your own definition they did something mundane that created magical results, i.e. the ability to use sorcery.
Nah, see below. I explained it neatly.

To me, genetic manipulation and augmented sensory inputs via technology is mundane in a way that creating energy and matter from nothing and manipulating the world with thoughts is strictly magical. Like being able to change your eyes so that you can see infrared light (mundane) - this doesn't let you control the heat and reverse entropy with your thoughts (magic).

I also feel you're confusing Earwa and our world in your arguments. In Earwa, Tekne and sorcery are both mundane. They are explicitly allowed by the Earwan laws of nature. In our world, we presume (which is the right thing to do until exhaustively proven otherwise) that sorcery is disallowed, "magic", using your terminology.
I don't think I am, but I think my terminology is confusing to you.

But if you think that magic and technology are the same in Earwa, there's nothing at all to discuss, and I'm not entirely sure what you've been debating for or against. If there's nothing to distinguish magic from not-magic, then whether I call the IF magic or not magic, its inconsequential, and we are in agreement.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 04:18:32 pm by Wilshire »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2018, 04:15:51 pm »
If the IF was magic, it wouldn't work on anarcane ground, right? So it wouldn't work on the progenitors world, and it wouldn't have made them discover the outside.
If we knew anything about anarcane ground, I'd speculate one way or the other, but that's more of a mystery than anything else.

I'll agree that if no sorcery of any kind, no magic, no gods, no aporetic sorcery, nothing at all of that nature, 'works' on anarcane ground, then neither would the IF.

I don't agree with that premise, but if that's your starting conditions, then there's nothing further to speculate.
To be clear, when addressing this point I presume that Wilshire's theory requires the Inverse Fire to be divine, which might work on anarcane grounds. For example, the divine is not hindered by Chorae, as evidenced by Ajokli pinning the skin-spies in the Golden Room to the floor.

But I would heavily dispute Psukhe, since it's very much vulnerable to Chorae despite being Markless.

Kellhus's Markless sorcery I now forced to consider divine influence, since Bakker doesn't want to ratify his words about it being powered by the supreme understanding of sorcery Kellhus acquired.

We can ignore Kellhus and Psuke being able to work on anarcane. For one, the Kellhus thing is confusing and the only proof is Bakker post-text (which I dislike), and the Psuke we can never say either way which makes it largely un-disprovable (which is admittedly distasteful) ((and I also don't like casting "Psuke!" to bolster arguments)).

Ajokli/Gods are really the important piece here, since that's basically my claim is that Ajokli is responsible for the IF, and I think they would be able to do whatever their brand of magic is on anarcane ground.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 04:17:38 pm by Wilshire »
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2018, 04:18:29 pm »
Lol'd.
Wilshire don't take this personally, but you forced me to do this
Watching a superb example of the backfire effect taking place right here. Doesn't matter how much evidence you give someone - if they are hell bent on believing something else, evidence to the contrary makes them double down.

Wilshire

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« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2018, 04:21:38 pm »
Lol'd.
Wilshire don't take this personally, but you forced me to do this
Watching a superb example of the backfire effect taking place right here. Doesn't matter how much evidence you give someone - if they are hell bent on believing something else, evidence to the contrary makes them double down.
You can post that anywhere that two people disagree with something, and both sides can do it to the other. I'd say you're missing the point - I think a useful discussion is being had here, but I'm sorry its not up to your standards lol.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2018, 04:46:39 pm »
There is nothing magic in that sense in Earwa. At least nothing we are explicitly aware of.
But if you think that magic and technology are the same in Earwa, there's nothing at all to discuss, and I'm not entirely sure what you've been debating for or against. If there's nothing to distinguish magic from not-magic, then whether I call the IF magic or not magic, its inconsequential, and we are in agreement.
This is the crux of our dispute, then. This is actually very interesting to me. Crucially, I take it for granted that in Earwa Tekne and sorcery can achieve the same results, since they are working with the same laws of nature. The difference is only in mechanics. Sorcery often has the Mark, Tekne doesn't. Sorcery doesn't work on anarcane grounds, Tekne (presumably) does. Some things are easier to achieve by sorcerous means, some are more effectively done with Tekne.

I don's see anything that would principally disallow Tekne to match sorcery in every respect, while you prefer to think the opposite is true. So far it's only required for the "Ajokli behind the Inverse Fire" theory. But that theory outright disputes things that are clearly stated in the series, which makes it very weak from the start. Is there something else that makes you prefer this line of thinking?

Absolutely serious question, completely unrelated to the fact that, so far, I disagree. I'm interested and would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Fair point.
The only thing I can say is that what's inside and whats visible on the outside are not the same? I don't think most sorcery is visible through solid walls, except chorae.
As far as we can tell, there is nothing inside except the Insertant. Malowebi certainly doesn't mention anything.

The Insertant isn't treated in any way before the insertion, which is seen in TUC.

Or that it requires sorcery but not necessarily aporetic/chorae.
Again, all I can say is that maybe the mark wasn't visible as whatever was magical was contained within.
This again puts additional strain on your theory, since the Consult now needs to have multiple ways to realize the No-God.

I assume grafting works on mundane knowledge of fancy genetic engineering. Noteworthy that no matter how smart, and born with the ability to see the onta, Kellhus was unable to do sorcery until taught.
Until the Grafting the Inchoroi couldn't use sorcery at all, even if taught. They took Nonmen prisoners, seduced the Aporitics, they had access to teachers, and the Grafting was still required. By your own definition they did something mundane that created magical results, i.e. the ability to use sorcery.
Nah, see below. I explained it neatly.

To me, genetic manipulation and augmented sensory inputs via technology is mundane in a way that creating energy and matter from nothing and manipulating the world with thoughts is strictly magical. Like being able to change your eyes so that you can see infrared light (mundane) - this doesn't let you control the heat and reverse entropy with your thoughts (magic).
Here, I don't see your point. Can you clarify?

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« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2018, 04:57:28 pm »
I think the fundamental question is, can a mundane object interact with the Outside?  My intuition is yes.

Also, it just seems implausible to me that Ajokli could interact with the Inchoroi through the Inverse Fire, but could not gain entrance to the Ark and only realized it was there by the void it left.
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« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2018, 05:30:59 pm »
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
Also, some theories postulate that the No-God very much worked on other worlds, though I'm not a fan of this line of thinking.

This goes against everything we know. There was an original insertant, pre Nayu. When Akka talks with the dragon isn't there mention of the No-God destroying other planets? If not, it doesn't matter, the was an original insertant that they used on other planets.

Me, myself, I don't see how the IF is magical. Its what spurned the progenitors on their quest to find a planet that could be shut off. They dug too deep, and created the IF. Anyway the only way Ajokli could create the IF is if he had a link to their home planet. And, if that was the case the wouldn't of had to travel the Universe to find one.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2018, 05:41:16 pm »
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
Also, some theories postulate that the No-God very much worked on other worlds, though I'm not a fan of this line of thinking.
This goes against everything we know. There was an original insertant, pre Nayu. When Akka talks with the dragon isn't there mention of the No-God destroying other planets? If not, it doesn't matter, the was an original insertant that they used on other planets.
There is no mention of the No-God destroying other planets, Wutteat only says that the Inchoroi did so, without specifying the means.

I also always took it that the original Insertant is Nau-Cayuti, since his is the first confirmed case of the No-God being activated.

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« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2018, 05:44:52 pm »
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
Also, some theories postulate that the No-God very much worked on other worlds, though I'm not a fan of this line of thinking.
This goes against everything we know. There was an original insertant, pre Nayu. When Akka talks with the dragon isn't there mention of the No-God destroying other planets? If not, it doesn't matter, the was an original insertant that they used on other planets.
There is no mention of the No-God destroying other planets, Wutteat only says that the Inchoroi did so, without specifying the means.

I also always took it that the original Insertant is Nau-Cayuti, since his is the first confirmed case of the No-God being activated.
That goes directly against what Bakker stated in the AMA though.

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« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2018, 05:48:04 pm »
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
There is no mention of the No-God destroying other planets, Wutteat only says that the Inchoroi did so, without specifying the means.



I also always took it that the original Insertant is Nau-Cayuti, since his is the first confirmed case of the No-God being activated.

I said incould be wrong on the Wutteat scene, and it not specifically be mentioned. But, Akka's dreams about how they just lined them up and either killed them, until they found Nayu, who mayched the OI. This is confirmed in TUC by the mutilated also.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,