[TUC Spoilers] How did the Inchoroi come think Earwa was the promised land?

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Wilshire

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« Reply #105 on: March 15, 2018, 12:15:17 pm »
Btw, has anyone thought about how the Inchoroi came to think Earwa was the promised land?

;)
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False Man

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« Reply #106 on: March 15, 2018, 12:30:53 pm »
Kellhus/Ajokli stops the Chorae-equipped skinspies so he knows they are something more than a rock or a waterfall.
And the opposite also happens, when Cnaiur/Ajokli/Gilgaol? goes to face the Whirlwind the Sranc make way for him, as if sensing that you do not f*ck with this guy.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #107 on: March 15, 2018, 12:47:49 pm »
Btw, has anyone thought about how the Inchoroi came to think Earwa was the promised land?

;)

Well, we don't know from the text/story. Seems to me only the Progenitors could've been the ones to promise as it reads as if Earwa was promised before they landed. The promise was the "fixing" of this planet will save them.
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Jabberwock03

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« Reply #108 on: March 15, 2018, 01:22:43 pm »
Its confusing to me. If anything without a soul is invisible, what do they even see?

Just nebulous pinpricks of light floating in voids? Like a picture from space of the dark side of Earth, but instead of lights they see souls?

Kellhus/Ajokli stops the Chorae-equipped skinspies so he knows they are something more than a rock or a waterfall.
And the opposite also happens, when Cnaiur/Ajokli/Gilgaol? goes to face the Whirlwind the Sranc make way for him, as if sensing that you do not f*ck with this guy.

I think gods see the world, but can only "comprehend/anticipate/can't put a word on it", intentions from soul based beings like humans, nonmen, Inchoroi.

So they can see the Srancs and the skinspies as if they were wolves or tigers; they are biologicals being moving and doing stuffs but with no real intentions/free will, they obey their master or their instinct.
But the No-God is a mechanical thing, little more than a piece of rock and metal, with much intentions and no soul. So the gods can "see" that their is a big piece of rock in that windy sky, but they can't perceive/understand his intentions, can't anticipate what it wanna do. And so it's not even that it doesn't make sens to them, but they completely ignore him as they can't even start to imagine that something like that exist. And in the end they are like "Hmmmm windy weither... by the way all babies are still born... well, shit happens".

It seems kinda dumb from an human perspective, but they are gods who think differently than humans and in a timeless way. It make sens to me that they don't see the No-God.
So, they see the world just fine as we do, but process it in another way than we do.

Wilshire

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« Reply #109 on: March 15, 2018, 01:37:20 pm »
Btw, has anyone thought about how the Inchoroi came to think Earwa was the promised land?

;)

Well, we don't know from the text/story. Seems to me only the Progenitors could've been the ones to promise as it reads as if Earwa was promised before they landed. The promise was the "fixing" of this planet will save them.

Proginator Creation Myth is probably fairly likely, though someone sent the Inchoroi directly to Earwa. They basically popped out of a wormhole and landed, so it wasn't a mistake.
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H

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« Reply #110 on: March 15, 2018, 02:16:06 pm »
Proginator Creation Myth is probably fairly likely, though someone sent the Inchoroi directly to Earwa. They basically popped out of a wormhole and landed, so it wasn't a mistake.

But how do we know that isn't the same way they arrived to every other planet?  If someone sent them to Eärwa, why all the stops in between?  So, at the very least, they weren't directed toward it in particular from the get go.  Which is something of a strike against the Ajokli in the Inverse Fire theory, I'd think.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #111 on: March 15, 2018, 02:52:12 pm »
Which is something of a strike against the Ajokli in the Inverse Fire theory, I'd think.
I would expect people are tired of hearing me talk about that in this thread, at this time ;). I'll just say, no its not: I have 'simple' explanation for that (same as everything else lol).

But how do we know that isn't the same way they arrived to every other planet?  If someone sent them to Eärwa, why all the stops in between?  So, at the very least, they weren't directed toward it in particular from the get go. 
Yeah good point.
I can come up with: they knew it before they did whatever hyperspace-wormhole-jump to Earwa-Planet. I would expect that making wormholes is a energy and time intensive process, and perhaps their ship wasn't actually built for it - thus the damage to the ship and crash landing. They risked the jump because they finally found the planet (somehow?) and were excited to get there.

Either way, they certainly didn't know about it from the onset of their mission, otherwise its very difficult to explain the damaged ship.

Other than that, all I can think of is that it was ad hoc revisionist history/memory. They crash landed, so couldn't find another world, so obviously this was the world that they were meant to be on for eternity.

Obviously we have almost no information on the subject so its impossible to be sure, but we can think through some scenarios and maybe select the most reasonable one.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #112 on: March 15, 2018, 05:22:47 pm »
Its confusing to me. If anything without a soul is invisible, what do they even see?

Just nebulous pinpricks of light floating in voids? Like a picture from space of the dark side of Earth, but instead of lights they see souls?

Kellhus/Ajokli stops the Chorae-equipped skinspies so he knows they are something more than a rock or a waterfall.
And the opposite also happens, when Cnaiur/Ajokli/Gilgaol? goes to face the Whirlwind the Sranc make way for him, as if sensing that you do not f*ck with this guy.

I think gods see the world, but can only "comprehend/anticipate/can't put a word on it", intentions from soul based beings like humans, nonmen, Inchoroi.

So they can see the Srancs and the skinspies as if they were wolves or tigers; they are biologicals being moving and doing stuffs but with no real intentions/free will, they obey their master or their instinct.
But the No-God is a mechanical thing, little more than a piece of rock and metal, with much intentions and no soul. So the gods can "see" that their is a big piece of rock in that windy sky, but they can't perceive/understand his intentions, can't anticipate what it wanna do. And so it's not even that it doesn't make sens to them, but they completely ignore him as they can't even start to imagine that something like that exist. And in the end they are like "Hmmmm windy weither... by the way all babies are still born... well, shit happens".

It seems kinda dumb from an human perspective, but they are gods who think differently than humans and in a timeless way. It make sens to me that they don't see the No-God.
So, they see the world just fine as we do, but process it in another way than we do.
Exactly. As Bakker says,
Quote
A better way to think of the No-God is as a philosophical zombie (p-zombie), of a piece with all the other soulless instruments of the Inchoroi. A perfectly unconscious god, and so in that respect, entirely at one with material reality, continuous with it, and so an agency invisible to the Outside.
.
The metaphysics of how exactly this god functions, are of course very far from clear.

MSJ

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« Reply #113 on: March 15, 2018, 09:21:07 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Can you explain damnation without souls and Gods please? I really don't understand where you're coming from still.
 
How can the universe be meaningless with those things? Or are you saying souls and damnation only exists on Earwa?

No, we're not saying all souls don't end up in the Outside. What were saying is, and this completely wipes out your theory, is that Earwa is the only planet with a connection to the Outside. That's why its impossible for Ajokli to be the creator of the IF,it was discovered on the Inchoroi's home planet, one without a connection to the Outside. So, they set out to find the "promised land", Earwa where the was a link to the Outside to shut out the Gods. Magic isn't a reasonable answer Wilshire.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #114 on: March 15, 2018, 11:02:10 pm »
Quote from:  H
I think the fundamental question is, can a mundane object interact with the Outside?  My intuition is yes.

Also, it just seems implausible to me that Ajokli could interact with the Inchoroi through the Inverse Fire, but could not gain entrance to the Ark and only realized it was there by the void it left.

H, a lot don't makes in world or Bakkers extra comments don't help it out. But, its well thought out and maybe this will be Wilshire's whale. I give him benefit of doubt.

Though I am also not Ajokli all the way down theories. I don't even think the Circumfix was first contact. I believe Kellhus in his niche in the Outside. I believe contact came the Diamos.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 12:26:33 am by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #115 on: March 16, 2018, 12:31:36 am »
No, we're not saying all souls don't end up in the Outside. What were saying is, and this completely wipes out your theory, is that Earwa is the only planet with a connection to the Outside.
By the Glossary definition the Inverse Fire is a connection to the Outside stated to work not only on Earwa, but on other planets and in space, on the Ark while it was in transit. How do you reconcile it with your view of the Outside?

I also don't get how souls from other worlds (the worlds not connected to the Outside as presented in your theory) end up in the Outside. If they end up there, then the connection exists by definition.

Jabberwock03

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« Reply #116 on: March 16, 2018, 09:09:35 am »
No, we're not saying all souls don't end up in the Outside. What were saying is, and this completely wipes out your theory, is that Earwa is the only planet with a connection to the Outside.
By the Glossary definition the Inverse Fire is a connection to the Outside stated to work not only on Earwa, but on other planets and in space, on the Ark while it was in transit. How do you reconcile it with your view of the Outside?

I also don't get how souls from other worlds (the worlds not connected to the Outside as presented in your theory) end up in the Outside. If they end up there, then the connection exists by definition.

I think there is a difference between the connection of souls to the outside, which is a physical/metaphysical property of Earwa universe; and the fact that Earwa planet is deeply connected, partly merged, to the outside through arcane ground and topoi.

So, for me, all the universe is connected to the outside (but they can't interact with each other), and only (as far as we know) Earwa is somehow a little merged with the outside (magic is possible and the gods have more power on it).

And as I said, the IF could observe the outside, with tekne only and on anarcane groud, by finding the link between reality/outside through souls. And it make sens it would be a read-only device as there is no "merging (arcane)" on their home planet.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #117 on: March 16, 2018, 10:01:41 am »
I think there is a difference between the connection of souls to the outside, which is a physical/metaphysical property of Earwa universe; and the fact that Earwa planet is deeply connected, partly merged, to the outside through arcane ground and topoi.

So, for me, all the universe is connected to the outside (but they can't interact with each other), and only (as far as we know) Earwa is somehow a little merged with the outside (magic is possible and the gods have more power on it).

And as I said, the IF could observe the outside, with tekne only and on anarcane groud, by finding the link between reality/outside through souls. And it make sens it would be a read-only device as there is no "merging (arcane)" on their home planet.
How would you classify "read-only" in respect to reality? I ask the question, because I feel the term is not at all applicable. If you look at how read-only works for technology, you will see direct physical interaction, just structured in a specific way due to technological need and constraints. It's the same with the Outside. If souls are connected to it, then the connection exists and can be manipulated, which is evidenced by the Inverse Fire.

The strength of the connection is irrelevant to the question. For the lack of better definition and presuming stuff, let's say it's stronger on arcane grounds, so you can access it with just your mind and words, through sorcery. But fundamentally nothing has changed. The Outside exists, objectively. It's an intrinsic part of the Universe of TSA, it exists everywhere. And is accessible everywhere, only means differ. The Inverse Fire accesses it through Tekne.

That's why anarcane grounds do not save anyone from damnation.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 10:08:09 am by SmilerLoki »

Jabberwock03

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« Reply #118 on: March 16, 2018, 10:13:06 am »
That's pretty much what I said I think:

- Outside exist everywhere
- Everyone is damned
- But the connection is powerful on Earwa so you can do magic and gods can do some stuff
- And it's weak on Progenitors world so you can just watch your damnation through the IF and gods know you're here but can't do shit to you

Or did I understood you wrong?

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #119 on: March 16, 2018, 10:17:20 am »
Or did I understood you wrong?
My issue is with the "read-only" part of your views. What I mean by a connection is a possibility of interaction that goes invariably both ways.

For it to be different, something needs to not be a part of the system of reality and at the same time influence that system, which is a paradox.