Serwa seen with the Judging Eye

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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« on: May 01, 2018, 01:15:53 pm »
I'm referring to this passage:

Quote from: TUC Chapter 17
Sees a slender Ciphrang hanging as high as the future, showering the earth with death-a witch, wet with the fires of damnation, burns heaped upon burns.

I still can't understand why Serwa (who is at most 17 years old at this point) would be so damned as to qualify as a potential Ciphrang. Sure, she is a witch, but Mimara looked at Nil'giccas, who had been using sorcery for thousands of years, with the Judging Eye and did not see him as a Ciphrang. Unlike characters such as Cnaiür or Kosoter, Serwa isn't responsible for decades of murder, rape, torture, destruction, etc. So what exactly is the factor (or factors) that make Serwa into a potential Ciphrang?
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

themerchant

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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2018, 02:21:13 pm »
She uses people. Her father is "Ajokli".

Would be my speculation.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2018, 02:41:53 pm »
She uses people. Her father is "Ajokli".

Would be my speculation.

She does use people and is quite ruthless, but that still doesn't seem like enough for qualification as a Ciphrang...

You might be on to something with the Ajokli connection, though.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

MSJ

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« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2018, 02:44:46 pm »
Nah, she is damned like that because of her use of sorcery. She is the 2nd most powerful sorcerer behind Kellhus on Earwa.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 04:53:03 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2018, 02:47:13 pm »
She uses people. Her father is "Ajokli".

Would be my speculation.

She does use people and is quite ruthless, but that still doesn't seem like enough for qualification as a Ciphrang...

You might be on to something with the Ajokli connection, though.

I'll need to revisit the Kellhus / esmenet conversation at the start of TUC, as that's where Kellhus talks about accumulating sin, and my vague memory of using people means uber sin comes from that.

Kosoter looks like a ciphrang as well and he used no sorcery (that we know of) although i think Kosoter might be a demonic replicate. 

H

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« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2018, 05:38:37 pm »
Any Dûnyain is de-facto damned, so I don't think it would take too much more to gain her "Ciphrang-level" damnation, which probably even just her association with, let alone relation to, Kellhus is probably more than enough.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2018, 08:17:31 pm »
I'm referring to this passage:

Quote from: TUC Chapter 17
Sees a slender Ciphrang hanging as high as the future, showering the earth with death-a witch, wet with the fires of damnation, burns heaped upon burns.

I still can't understand why Serwa (who is at most 17 years old at this point) would be so damned as to qualify as a potential Ciphrang. Sure, she is a witch, but Mimara looked at Nil'giccas, who had been using sorcery for thousands of years, with the Judging Eye and did not see him as a Ciphrang. Unlike characters such as Cnaiür or Kosoter, Serwa isn't responsible for decades of murder, rape, torture, destruction, etc. So what exactly is the factor (or factors) that make Serwa into a potential Ciphrang?
It's not just about sin itself, but also about the force of will that a person possesses.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2018, 09:36:25 pm »
It's not just about sin itself, but also about the force of will that a person possesses.
I always had a problem with that, because the whole Ajokli debacle stems from Kellhus being, essentially, weak-willed. Which is then extrapolated on the Dunyain as a whole. That includes Serwa.

CiphrangBarbeque

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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2018, 10:54:10 am »
Its a very good question. With thousands of years to life, you would think a monumental figure like Nil'Giccas or Aurang could also make their way to the top of the Hell food chain..

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2018, 01:15:17 pm »
Nah, she is damned like that because of her uae of sorcery. She is the wnd most powerful sorcerer behind Kellhus on Earwa.

I can see where you're coming from, MSJ, but it still doesn't seem like enough to reach Ciphrang-level (as H put it). Sure, she is "wet with the fires of damnation" as Mimara described her, that does make sense. But no matter how powerful she is, the point still stands that she has been using sorcery for a maximum of 14 years (seeing as she was identified as one of the Few at age 3). Compare that to the Nonmen Qûya, how many millennia they had to hone their skills. If that was the case, Mimara would have to see Nil'giccas as a Ciphrang as well and not "just" damned.



Any Dûnyain is de-facto damned, so I don't think it would take too much more to gain her "Ciphrang-level" damnation, which probably even just her association with, let alone relation to, Kellhus is probably more than enough.

A good point, H, but wouldn't the "Dûnyain original sin" make Mimara see Koringhus as a Ciphrang too? Did you mean that the Dûnyain factor plus the use of sorcery is what pushes Serwa into Ciphrang-level damnation? If so, yes, that does make sense...
Serwa is, however, one generation removed from the "original sin", not having been born of a whale-mother like Kellhus, Koringhus or the Boy. Though I suppose "sins of the fathers" could be in play here and it wouldn't matter.



It's not just about sin itself, but also about the force of will that a person possesses.

I always had a problem with that, because the whole Ajokli debacle stems from Kellhus being, essentially, weak-willed. Which is then extrapolated on the Dunyain as a whole. That includes Serwa.

While I'm still kind of torn on this particular point, I agree with SmilerLoki here.



Its a very good question. With thousands of years to life, you would think a monumental figure like Nil'Giccas or Aurang could also make their way to the top of the Hell food chain..

Aurang and his fellow Inchoroi were designed for that very purpose, so that is certainly the case with him.
While I'm not saying that a human lifespan is not enough to attain Ciphrang-level (it certainly is, look at Cnaiür), it does seem far less likely for a human to reach that threshold of damnation. And Cnaiür is in his late 60s by the time Mimara looks at him with the Judging Eye, he's had decades to get to that level. Serwa hasn't.

Considering all the options that have been discussed in this thread so far, I'm starting to think that Serwa's case is indeed the result of a combination of factors that aren't present in other characters (even if I'm not still 100% satisfied with that explanation).
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2018, 01:38:08 pm »
I'm referring to this passage:

Quote from: TUC Chapter 17
Sees a slender Ciphrang hanging as high as the future, showering the earth with death-a witch, wet with the fires of damnation, burns heaped upon burns.

I still can't understand why Serwa (who is at most 17 years old at this point) would be so damned as to qualify as a potential Ciphrang. Sure, she is a witch, but Mimara looked at Nil'giccas, who had been using sorcery for thousands of years, with the Judging Eye and did not see him as a Ciphrang. Unlike characters such as Cnaiür or Kosoter, Serwa isn't responsible for decades of murder, rape, torture, destruction, etc. So what exactly is the factor (or factors) that make Serwa into a potential Ciphrang?
Perhaps it's her sheer ability with the Metagnosis that marks her as Ciphrang? The Metagnosis is a more reality-altering (and hence more damning) tool than other forms of sorcery.
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

H

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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2018, 02:11:48 pm »
A good point, H, but wouldn't the "Dûnyain original sin" make Mimara see Koringhus as a Ciphrang too? Did you mean that the Dûnyain factor plus the use of sorcery is what pushes Serwa into Ciphrang-level damnation? If so, yes, that does make sense...
Serwa is, however, one generation removed from the "original sin", not having been born of a whale-mother like Kellhus, Koringhus or the Boy. Though I suppose "sins of the fathers" could be in play here and it wouldn't matter.

I didn't put it very succinctly, but yeah my idea was that she begins with Dûnyain original sin and only digs herself further down via the meta-gnosis and her aiding and abetting Kellhus (and perhaps even proximity too).  Koringhus really hasn't actually done much personally to garner a greater level of damnation (that we know of) and arguably might have even done some redeeming things (saving the boy).  It seems plausible to me that Serwa started in the hole of generational sin and only deepened that, especially if we imagine that incest could be consider a sin by the Cubit.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2018, 04:49:53 pm »
Kellhus describes the union between his intellect and esme "heart" as trying to bridle a lion with string.

Remember she is half esme as well.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2018, 04:55:47 pm »
especially if we imagine that incest could be consider a sin by the Cubit.
Moenghus Jr. isn't really Serwa's brother, though. They're not related by blood.

I mean, her sleeping with him is presented as way messed up, but I'm not buying it. Serwa sleeps with exactly two men "on-screen", both of who genuinely love her. Even more so, she herself genuinely cares about both of them. For all the manipulative stuff that's going on there, I couldn't help but feel that her choices of sexual partners are fairly healthy.

But, granted, I'm not really judgy about sex. It's consensual? Then fine. The objective moral code of Earwa is probably much more strict than my contemporary ambivalence.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2018, 05:46:54 pm »
I didn't put it very succinctly, but yeah my idea was that she begins with Dûnyain original sin and only digs herself further down via the meta-gnosis and her aiding and abetting Kellhus (and perhaps even proximity too).  Koringhus really hasn't actually done much personally to garner a greater level of damnation (that we know of) and arguably might have even done some redeeming things (saving the boy).  It seems plausible to me that Serwa started in the hole of generational sin and only deepened that, especially if we imagine that incest could be consider a sin by the Cubit.


That's true about Koringhus. It would be nice if we knew what Mimara would have seen with the Judging Eye had she ever looked at, say, Maithanet, Kayûtas, Thelli or Inrilatas with it (granted, we don't know that she didn't, but it's never mentioned) to have more points of comparison. (I'm not including Kelmomas or Samarmas because of the whole No-God thing.)
Oh, the incest is also in play here, that's right. I had forgotten about that other factor. According to Sorweel, incest is very much considered a sin, though we seem to only have his opinion on the subject. I can only think of one other case, Cû'jara-Cinmoi's parents, who were apparently both executed for their sin (that doesn't really lend itself to further conclusions, as Cûnuroi society might have had a different view of incest). But anyway, it doesn't surprise me that the Gods would view Serwa and Moënghus 's relationship as actual incest - and thus damn them for it - even if there is no biological relation.


Kellhus describes the union between his intellect and esme "heart" as trying to bridle a lion with string.

Remember she is half esme as well.

Serwa has a much more balanced personality than Inrilatas, but then again we can't completely exclude this as a contributing factor...



Moenghus Jr. isn't really Serwa's brother, though. They're not related by blood.

I mean, her sleeping with him is presented as way messed up, but I'm not buying it. Serwa sleeps with exactly two men "on-screen", both of who genuinely love her. Even more so, she herself genuinely cares about both of them. For all the manipulative stuff that's going on there, I couldn't help but feel that her choices of sexual partners are fairly healthy.

But, granted, I'm not really judgy about sex. It's consensual? Then fine. The objective moral code of Earwa is probably much more strict than my contemporary ambivalence.

Sure, Moënghus and Serwa are not biologically (half-)brother and sister, but they were raised to think of themselves as such. Kellhus has insisted that Moënghus is his son and a true Anasûrimbor since day one, and that has a meaning in Eärwa. It's not unlikely that the Gods (like Sorweel) would see it and treat it as actual biological incest.

I myself have no issues with Serwa's sexual relationships with either Moënghus or Sorweel (they are frankly much healthier than most of the others shown in the series, not to mention Serwa seems to be the only female character whose sexual relationships are all consensual), I am just saying that I can see how it would be considered incest in-universe, if not out of it. And yes, Eärwa morality does seem to be quite strict, so there's that too.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)