Serwa seen with the Judging Eye

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H

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« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2018, 10:42:56 am »
Yeah, I should have put "incest" in quotes, because it is debatable if the Cubit would consider it "real" or not.  We simply don't know.  There is a fair moral case for either side, really.  The point being, of course, that Serwa is probably completely morally ambiguous in general and being that she most probably was born into some sort of "moralistic debt" it seems unlikely that she ever did enough to overcome that, let alone not descend further.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

JerakoKayne

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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2018, 11:44:05 am »
It's her hunger. Ciphrang are defined as Hunger. Her desires, the fulcrum of her soul (that which drives the very core of what is Serwa) is centered on using/devouring other souls. That she has not been doing this long is irrelevant; she is the type of soul that Hungers enough to feed on other souls in the Ciphrang way in the Outside.

EDIT: To elaborate, while I still hold on to this drunken thought, I was disappointed we never do get to see Kellhus under the Judging Eye. I suspect he would not be damned in the way other Dunyain are (though probably for other reasons, i.e. the Hundred's despisal?). It's a supreme self-centered nature that drives the Ciphrang. Whether his subjects are treated poorly or not doesn't matter to him, to be fair. "Good" and "evil" are irrelevant to his objectives, at least regarding the means he uses to achieve them. In the end, Kellhus can loosely be described as altruistic. His base motivations, why he went through all he did, really was to "save the world." Not because he is soft-hearted about them, but rather because he truly believes the world being Shut is a bad thing for the Dunyain mission (read: a bad thing for people not-Kellhus). He uses other people to accomplish this, but it's a meta-self interest, rather than self, that drives him.

Even his willing exile from Ishual wasn't for his own interest; it was deemed necessary for the Dunyain as a whole.

Serwa is entirely interested in Serwa, and what she can glean out of her circumstances.

Re-EDIT: Kellhus describing himself as "descending as hunger" in the Inverse Fire is an extremely blurred line between Ajokli and Kellhus. Maybe that is his damnation, if the Kellhus personality is damned?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 12:28:56 pm by JerakoKayne »

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2018, 07:50:01 pm »
It's her hunger. Ciphrang are defined as Hunger.
Kellhus describes himself in the Outside as Hunger. Whether that constitutes Ciphrang, we have no way of knowing.

Serwa is entirely interested in Serwa, and what she can glean out of her circumstances.
I heavily dispute this. If anything, Serwa is defined by her love for her father. She follows him, she looks up to him, she always does what he says, she calls on him when she is in trouble (the light weapon incident), and even her last recorded thought is "Father!".

Yes, she rationalizes her actions and devotion to Kelmomas, but it stands hollow to me. For all her intellect, Serwa is still a child, which is best evidenced in her relationship with Sorweel. Young girls love their fathers, and she is by no means an exception.

SuJuroit

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« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2018, 09:03:56 pm »
Harweel claims that Kellhus is a Hunger in TJE.  Between that and Kellhus' words in TUC, I'm comfortable using the word to describe ciphrang.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2018, 09:20:38 pm »
Yeah, I should have put "incest" in quotes, because it is debatable if the Cubit would consider it "real" or not.  We simply don't know.  There is a fair moral case for either side, really.  The point being, of course, that Serwa is probably completely morally ambiguous in general and being that she most probably was born into some sort of "moralistic debt" it seems unlikely that she ever did enough to overcome that, let alone not descend further.

Fair enough, I accept that explanation. After all, thinking on it, we don't even have anyone else with the same combination of factors possibly influencing her damnation (Dûnyain "original sin" + sorcery + "incest" + Thousandfold Thought). I can see why she could be damned at a "Ciphrang-level" while, say, Koringhus, isn't. (I would still love to know how Maithanet, Moënghus II, Kayûtas, Thelli and Inrilatas would be seen by the Judging Eye, since all of these have at least one of the factors influencing Serwa's damnation present...)


It's her hunger. Ciphrang are defined as Hunger. Her desires, the fulcrum of her soul (that which drives the very core of what is Serwa) is centered on using/devouring other souls. That she has not been doing this long is irrelevant; she is the type of soul that Hungers enough to feed on other souls in the Ciphrang way in the Outside.

Serwa is entirely interested in Serwa, and what she can glean out of her circumstances.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you there, while I admit that Serwa does look to her own interests in occasion, she is mostly concerned with helping her father achieve his Thousandfold Thought. I do not read her as entirely self-centered at all.


I heavily dispute this. If anything, Serwa is defined by her love for her father. She follows him, she looks up to him, she always does what he says, she calls on him when she is in trouble (the light weapon incident), and even her last recorded thought is "Father!".

I agree with this, her first and foremost interest is certainly Kellhus (and his goals), not herself.


Yes, she rationalizes her actions and devotion to Kelmomas, but it stands hollow to me. For all her intellect, Serwa is still a child, which is best evidenced in her relationship with Sorweel. Young girls love their fathers, and she is by no means an exception.

I think Serwa does genuinely believe what she tells Kelmomas, or at least most of it (opinions may vary, as always). To be sure, she might actually believe it and subconsciously be devoted to Kellhus for other reasons. She has quite clearly always been his favourite child, so there's that (and yes, Kellhus' affection for his children is...debatable, but I think we can agree she is the most prized one for her usefulness).
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2018, 09:33:14 pm »
Harweel claims that Kellhus is a Hunger in TJE.  Between that and Kellhus' words in TUC, I'm comfortable using the word to describe ciphrang.
While I agree it's what Harweel meant, I don't think he and Kellhus are talking about the same thing at all. Kellhus is just clearly in possession of much more information pertaining to the Outside. His perspective is not at all equal to Harweel's, it's the difference between the informed and the uninformed here.

I think Serwa does genuinely believe what she tells Kelmomas, or at least most of it (opinions may vary, as always). To be sure, she might actually believe it and subconsciously be devoted to Kellhus for other reasons. She has quite clearly always been his favourite child, so there's that (and yes, Kellhus' affection for his children is...debatable, but I think we can agree she is the most prized one for her usefulness).
Yes, I agree, I do think she isn't lying, basically rationalizing it to herself as well.

Though I'm kinda torn about Kellhus's affections. I don't really see him as that interested in his children and their well-being. Concerning them, he always comes off like a cold-hearted bastard. But yes, he does use them as tools, and in that capacity Serwa is certainly the most useful one.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2018, 01:30:17 pm »
It's not just about sin itself, but also about the force of will that a person possesses.
I always had a problem with that, because the whole Ajokli debacle stems from Kellhus being, essentially, weak-willed. Which is then extrapolated on the Dunyain as a whole. That includes Serwa.
Serwa isn't a full Dûnyain though. She has prodigious intellect and physical abilities, but her heart is still human. Whereas a Dûnyain heart which hungers only for the Absolute, would be more likely to just be damned, Serwa's human heart is more likely to turn her into a timeless hunger. At least that's the way I see it, but maybe the description is not so much about Serwa actually qualifying for Ciphrang-status as the pure depth of her sin, which again might be explained by all the factors already mentioned in this thread.

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« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2018, 01:40:45 pm »
My initial instinct was that it was her use of the metagnosis, but upon reflection, I don't think this is likely. I doubt, sincerely, that the use of one magic is more damning than another - sans Psuke. What's more important is effects - assuming causing deaths of thousands is worse than deaths of a single person, sorcery has a unique ability to commit sins en masse.

But, even still, Serwa hasn't been around for nearly so long as other magi, and has not spent her life warring against other men (assuming killing sranc doesn't count as sin).

My thought is that it has something to do with her personally. Thinking back to the idea that knowledge is what makes sin, Serwa is painfully aware of her actions and their repercussions. She's aware of the falseness of her father, that he isn't a god but a man playing god's game. Shes aware that all the men in the ordeal is damned and does nothing to stop or, etc. etc. Her Ciphranginess comes from her quasi-dunyain ability to know her actions

At least, that's what I'm going with.
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SuJuroit

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« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2018, 03:02:02 pm »
Harweel claims that Kellhus is a Hunger in TJE.  Between that and Kellhus' words in TUC, I'm comfortable using the word to describe ciphrang.
While I agree it's what Harweel meant, I don't think he and Kellhus are talking about the same thing at all. Kellhus is just clearly in possession of much more information pertaining to the Outside. His perspective is not at all equal to Harweel's, it's the difference between the informed and the uninformed here.

Kellhus certainly knows more, but they're both talking about the same thing; Ciphrang are hunger.  They're defined by it, such that people who don't have any special knowledge or insight into the Outside use the word to refer to them.  Think about everything we know about Ciphrang.  Every time we see them on screen, they're lusting for souls, driven to satisfy themselves.  Ajokli's grand plot that drove the entire series was to manifest in the Inward so he could FEAST.

Remember that in the Outside, everything that makes people human is meat to them.  Meat to sate their hunger.

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My thought is that it has something to do with her personally. Thinking back to the idea that knowledge is what makes sin, Serwa is painfully aware of her actions and their repercussions. She's aware of the falseness of her father, that he isn't a god but a man playing god's game. Shes aware that all the men in the ordeal is damned and does nothing to stop or, etc. etc. Her Ciphranginess comes from her quasi-dunyain ability to know her actions

I'm not sure that knowledge or ignorance of sin matters in Earwa.  Didn't Bakker tell us there was a right and a wrong way to believe/act, and if you happened to be born into the wrong religion, sucks to be you.  Whole nations would be damned, etc.   I'm more inclined to think it goes towards her actions.  Kellhus tells us that using others as tools is especially damning, and Serwa is certainly guilty of that in a big way, in addition to her mastery of sorcery.

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« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2018, 03:58:47 pm »
Ajokli's grand plot that drove the entire series was to manifest in the Inward so he could FEAST.
That is precisely why I made a distinction here. People talk about Ciphrang feasting on souls. They most certainly do not talk about the Gods that way, and Ajokli is a God. Now, Kellhus does refer to the Gods in all kinds of manners that mark them as no more than Ciphrang on a bigger scale, but Kellhus is the only one in-universe who does that.

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« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2018, 07:19:14 pm »
Ajokli's grand plot that drove the entire series was to manifest in the Inward so he could FEAST.
That is precisely why I made a distinction here. People talk about Ciphrang feasting on souls. They most certainly do not talk about the Gods that way, and Ajokli is a God. Now, Kellhus does refer to the Gods in all kinds of manners that mark them as no more than Ciphrang on a bigger scale, but Kellhus is the only one in-universe who does that.

Psatma Nannaferi flat out told somebody (Meppa?) that Yatwer would eat him.  The gods also feast.

The Cishaurim, and by extension all Fanim, believe that The Hundred are nothing but upjumped Ciphrang. 

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« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2018, 07:53:00 pm »
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My thought is that it has something to do with her personally. Thinking back to the idea that knowledge is what makes sin, Serwa is painfully aware of her actions and their repercussions. She's aware of the falseness of her father, that he isn't a god but a man playing god's game. Shes aware that all the men in the ordeal is damned and does nothing to stop or, etc. etc. Her Ciphranginess comes from her quasi-dunyain ability to know her actions

I'm not sure that knowledge or ignorance of sin matters in Earwa.  Didn't Bakker tell us there was a right and a wrong way to believe/act, and if you happened to be born into the wrong religion, sucks to be you.  Whole nations would be damned, etc.   I'm more inclined to think it goes towards her actions.  Kellhus tells us that using others as tools is especially damning, and Serwa is certainly guilty of that in a big way, in addition to her mastery of sorcery.

Yes, Bakker said there's objective morality and whole nations are damned because of it. In the world of TSA, I'm not sure that answer is particularly revealing.

Knowledge and ignorance are really the only things that we are shown makes sin. I think MSJ can help you out with that one ;) .

Sorcery, on the other hand, we have no idea if it makes you damned or not. We know it makes you marked, but we have less information on The Mark than we do on damnation. I suspect the two phenomenon are largely separate - it just so happens that most people use magic to kill people, and schoolmen/quya tend to be knowledgeable people. Both attributes leading to damnation - sorcery is merely the means, not the cause.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 07:54:44 pm by Wilshire »
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SuJuroit

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« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2018, 08:55:29 pm »
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Knowledge and ignorance are really the only things that we are shown makes sin. I think MSJ can help you out with that one ;) .

I think sin makes sin in Earwa.  Ignorance of the sin appears to be no excuse, but ignorance seems to lead to "better" behavior and knowledge to worse.  That makes sense if using people as tools is a great sin; the less you know and understand, the harder it is to manipulate and use others. 

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Sorcery, on the other hand, we have no idea if it makes you damned or not. We know it makes you marked, but we have less information on The Mark than we do on damnation. I suspect the two phenomenon are largely separate - it just so happens that most people use magic to kill people, and schoolmen/quya tend to be knowledgeable people. Both attributes leading to damnation - sorcery is merely the means, not the cause.

Yeah, it's not clear cut.  Mimara sees Akka as a blasted, charred figure, irrevocably damned.  But is that because of his Mark, or because Akka has killed many people and probably used and manipulated plenty of others in his career as a spy?  As you say, we actually know little about Damnation.  It's not clear to me what Damnation even means in the context of what Mimara sees.  We're told salvation by The Hundred is arbitrary and capricious; you merely have to be liked.  Could Gilgaol "save" a mighty warrior that killed hundreds of men and showed as Damned in Mimara's Judging Eye?  So perhaps Mimara's Eye does accurately see Damnation but everybody gets a last saving throw when they die to see if a god likes them enough to "save" them?

My gut tells me that sorcery and the Mark DO lead to Damnation because they offend the God, marring his creation, singing in his Voice.  But then, what role does the God have in Damnation?  He sleeps.  He doesn't eat in the Outside.  Are the Ciphrang (including The Hundred) and their hunger his will?

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« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2018, 02:34:10 am »
Psatma Nannaferi flat out told somebody (Meppa?) that Yatwer would eat him.  The gods also feast.

The Cishaurim, and by extension all Fanim, believe that The Hundred are nothing but upjumped Ciphrang.
The Fanim do not consider the Gods to be Gods, they call them demons in a religious sense, and their views on Ciphrang as actual existing entities are unknown (at least I don't currently remember them being expressed).

Psatma is a good point, yes, and she is much closer to Kellhus than Harweel because of her direct line to the divine. That said, she makes a clear distinction between the Gods and Ciphrang. She is a believer. Kellhus isn't.

My point is, when Kellhus talks about the Outside and its agencies, his words cannot be viewed in the context of common beliefs. They should be viewed metaphysically, using cutting edge knowledge about the workings of Earwa. Harweel or even the priests of the Thousand Temples can neither corroborate nor dispute Kellhus, they are not in possession of enough information to do so. Someone like Psatma is a better counterpoint, but her arguments are inherently tainted by her beliefs, which are irrational by definition. The Nonmen would also serve as a source of relevant information here.

Wilshire

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« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2018, 04:19:21 pm »
Psatma is a better counterpoint, but her arguments are inherently tainted by her beliefs, which are irrational by definition. The Nonmen would also serve as a source of relevant information here.
Kellhus has his own beliefs to deal with though. By the time we get to hear more in detail from him, he's basically a raving lunatic - can't decipher his own machinations from that of Ajokli.

I'm definitely inclined to take Psatma's word at the same level of Kellhus. They both have ego, and belief, expectation, and circumstance changing how they interpret and relay information to those around them (and by extension the reader).
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