Wracu

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mrganondorf

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« Reply #105 on: October 06, 2015, 02:23:46 pm »

reasons why the Consults don't put chorae on wracu
Dunno if it would help, but I remembr something about bashrag were designed to counter ishroi skills and wracu (as mass-production) are the same agains quya.

Nice! I bet Khellus emptied Sarkapus so he could make 1 dragon sorcery proof ... because ... idk.

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« Reply #106 on: October 06, 2015, 07:52:47 pm »
Well, considering how well Wutteät (even half-rotted Wutteät) stands up to both Akka and Cleric at the same time, the idea that they need Chorae to protect themselves seems a little misguided.  Plus the fact that Aurang, at times, seems to have ridden at least Wutteät, no doubt others were riding other Wracu at times as well.  Why would they want to put themselves in a Chorae bubble, when they were riding a nearly indestructible tank from which they could spin Wards (if they really had to) and work their own sorcery?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #107 on: October 06, 2015, 07:58:43 pm »
H, that's a good explanation. Still, it doesn't truly answer Sci's question. You have Wracu that are nearly unstoppable and the only thing that can stop them are sorcerer's. Why wouldn't you just put 4 or 5 chorae(chorae isn't a problem for the Consult, Bakker has said they have the greatest horde in Earwa, thousands upon thousands) on them, and have them be virtually indestructible? It truly makes zero sense unless there is a plausible reason for doing so. And, I've never seen an answer that solved this riddle.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #108 on: October 06, 2015, 08:10:56 pm »
Well, in reality, we only have evidence of one Dragon ever being killed by a sorcerer, that is Skafra by Seswatha at Mengedda, which, honestly, I don't really even believe.  That whole scene makes little real sense if you think about it, Seswatha and Anaxophus standing there, assaulted by Wracu, holding the Heron Spear, and yet, never using it?

I think there is a good chance that the Heron Spear actually killed Skafra and what wounded Skuthula (who may well be the dead Wracu at the bottom of the Black Halls).  We know they can actually be bested physically, consider that Ciögli broke Wutteät's neck with his bare hands.  No doubt this was a rare feat, as Ciögli's like hasn't probably been seen before or again, but still, proves that sorcery wasn't the only answer.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #109 on: October 06, 2015, 08:26:42 pm »
OK, all fair points. Still, can't you at least see where Sci is coming from? It really doesn't make any sense that Dragon aren't covered in chorae.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #110 on: October 06, 2015, 08:37:34 pm »
OK, all fair points. Still, can't you at least see where Sci is coming from? It really doesn't make any sense that Dragon aren't covered in chorae.

Oh, I've agreed since he brought that up years ago.  There are really two options, either it was something Scott just never thought of, or there is some Wracu-nature related reason.  My point is just that in the event of it being the former and there is no latter justification, it's something that can kind of easily be ret-conned, with at least some plausibility (from the textual evidence I find).
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

mrganondorf

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« Reply #111 on: October 06, 2015, 08:54:34 pm »
OK, all fair points. Still, can't you at least see where Sci is coming from? It really doesn't make any sense that Dragon aren't covered in chorae.

oh yeah, there needs to be a reason.  if touching a dragon with a chorae doesn't harm the dragon, then i can't imagine anything besides chorae shortage + trust in a dragon's natural toughness

really, i have no idea how dragons get kilt at all.  Akka is a motherfucking blaster master and all he manages to do is poke Wutteat.  it's still hard to believe: perhaps the MOST-battle tested mandate sorcerer in the world that isn't Kellhus hurts an old as fuck, blind dragon so little, that the lizard just flies off

it maybe that Kellhus' primary use to the Great Ordeal's migration will just be air-to-air fighting

mrganondorf

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« Reply #112 on: October 06, 2015, 09:42:27 pm »
OK, all fair points. Still, can't you at least see where Sci is coming from? It really doesn't make any sense that Dragon aren't covered in chorae.

Oh, I've agreed since he brought that up years ago.  There are really two options, either it was something Scott just never thought of, or there is some Wracu-nature related reason.  My point is just that in the event of it being the former and there is no latter justification, it's something that can kind of easily be ret-conned, with at least some plausibility (from the textual evidence I find).

like Wracu are too proud to wear them?

maybe it's possible that wearing a chorae fucks up the wireless signal from Mog so that none of the Derived wore them during the Mog-walking?

The Spaces Between

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« Reply #113 on: October 07, 2015, 12:21:07 am »
we know chorae when touching skin (organic/bios such as men or sranc) impart protection to the whole organism from sorcery. there must be lines of conduction for the chorae effect that work to conduct the effect along organic tissue.

An example of chorae not touching skin but used to confer protection to an inorganic material are kells circumfrix which had three bound to the bronze ring

Quote
A great tree soared into the night sky, a hoary old eucalyptus, too ancient not to be named. His first thought was to set it alight, to transform it into a blazing beacon of his wrath—a funeral pyre for the betrayer, the seducer! But he could sense the absences that encircled the man, the three Chorae the Men of the Tusk had bound to his bronze ring. And he could see that he suffered . . .

and the no-gods carapace which is apparently an iron sarcophagus that legend states has 11 chorae bound to it, tho there is another quote that tells us the carapace is actually nimil and covered in choric script.

Quote
No-God—Also known as Mog-Pharau, Tsurumah, and Mursiris. The entity summoned by the Consult to bring about the Apocalypse. Very little is known about the No-God, save that he utterly lacks remorse or compassion and possesses terrible power, including the ability to control Sranc, Bashrag, and Wracu as extensions of his own will. Because of his armour (the so-called Carapace), which eyewitnesses describe as an iron sarcophagus suspended in the heart of a mountainous whirlwind, it is not even known whether he is a creature of flesh or of spirit. According to Mandate scholars, the Inchoroi worship him as their saviour, as do—according to some—the Scylvendi.
Somehow, his mere existence is antithetical to human life: during the entirety of the Apocalypse, not one infant drew breath—all were stillborn. He is apparently immune to sorcery (according to legend, eleven Chorae are embedded in the Carapace). The Heron Spear is the only known weapon that can harm him.

Quote
Secrets . . . Secrets! Not even the No-God could build walls against what was forgotten! Seswatha glimpsed the unholy Carapace shining in the whirlwind’s heart, a nimil sarcophagus sheathed in choric script, hanging . . .


going a bit off topic but assuming that the people werent just using a large number of chorae than necessary,then when chorae are used to protect relatively inorganic material there seems to be a need for an exponential number to impart protection from sorcery to these materials. How does this relate to wracu and why they dont just use chorae to protect themselves comes in how they describe their physiology

Quote
"FOOL. I AM THE FIRST. MY HIDE IS BRONZE. MY BONES ARE IRON!"

There must be a bios component to the wracu but if their physiology is primary inorganic particularly on their outside, perhaps it doesnt confer the protective effect of chorae very well and they would literally need to be covered head to claw in them and then some for it offer true protection


....or maybe its wracu-nature retcon [reasons] related :P
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #114 on: October 07, 2015, 05:53:45 am »
we know chorae when touching skin (organic/bios such as men or sranc) impart protection to the whole organism from sorcery. there must be lines of conduction for the chorae effect that work to conduct the effect along organic tissue.

An example of chorae not touching skin but used to confer protection to an inorganic material are kells circumfrix which had three bound to the bronze ring

Quote
A great tree soared into the night sky, a hoary old eucalyptus, too ancient not to be named. His first thought was to set it alight, to transform it into a blazing beacon of his wrath—a funeral pyre for the betrayer, the seducer! But he could sense the absences that encircled the man, the three Chorae the Men of the Tusk had bound to his bronze ring. And he could see that he suffered . . .

and the no-gods carapace which is apparently an iron sarcophagus that legend states has 11 chorae bound to it, tho there is another quote that tells us the carapace is actually nimil and covered in choric script.

Quote
No-God—Also known as Mog-Pharau, Tsurumah, and Mursiris. The entity summoned by the Consult to bring about the Apocalypse. Very little is known about the No-God, save that he utterly lacks remorse or compassion and possesses terrible power, including the ability to control Sranc, Bashrag, and Wracu as extensions of his own will. Because of his armour (the so-called Carapace), which eyewitnesses describe as an iron sarcophagus suspended in the heart of a mountainous whirlwind, it is not even known whether he is a creature of flesh or of spirit. According to Mandate scholars, the Inchoroi worship him as their saviour, as do—according to some—the Scylvendi.
Somehow, his mere existence is antithetical to human life: during the entirety of the Apocalypse, not one infant drew breath—all were stillborn. He is apparently immune to sorcery (according to legend, eleven Chorae are embedded in the Carapace). The Heron Spear is the only known weapon that can harm him.

Quote
Secrets . . . Secrets! Not even the No-God could build walls against what was forgotten! Seswatha glimpsed the unholy Carapace shining in the whirlwind’s heart, a nimil sarcophagus sheathed in choric script, hanging . . .


going a bit off topic but assuming that the people werent just using a large number of chorae than necessary,then when chorae are used to protect relatively inorganic material there seems to be a need for an exponential number to impart protection from sorcery to these materials. How does this relate to wracu and why they dont just use chorae to protect themselves comes in how they describe their physiology

Quote
"FOOL. I AM THE FIRST. MY HIDE IS BRONZE. MY BONES ARE IRON!"

There must be a bios component to the wracu but if their physiology is primary inorganic particularly on their outside, perhaps it doesnt confer the protective effect of chorae very well and they would literally need to be covered head to claw in them and then some for it offer true protection


....or maybe its wracu-nature retcon [reasons] related :P

yeah it could totally be retconned but i don't think it is necessarily so...

i don't feel entirely comfortable following the idea that 1 chorae matches to 1 oragnism.  i think the biggest organism on screen with 1 chorae has been a bashrag?  and i don't know that the reader was told that the bashrag was wholly covered?

3 chorae for the tree and 11 for Mog could be outliers to whatever principle is generally involved...

i think i follow you at the end --> if a higher # of chorae are required to protect inorganic things and if the dragons are inorganic (or are in inorganic shells?) then the # of chorae required would be too high to be worth it?  is that right?  interesting idea!  Robot-Dragons!!!  Ewracu!

-------


maybe dragons are like the Seal from the end of TJE.  dragons bring with them a tide of unreality from the Outside so that chorae are generally ineffective?

Mimara will kill Wutteat!!!  Mimi...THE SLAYER

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« Reply #115 on: October 07, 2015, 12:16:24 pm »

yeah it could totally be retconned but i don't think it is necessarily so...

i don't feel entirely comfortable following the idea that 1 chorae matches to 1 oragnism.  i think the biggest organism on screen with 1 chorae has been a bashrag?  and i don't know that the reader was told that the bashrag was wholly covered?

3 chorae for the tree and 11 for Mog could be outliers to whatever principle is generally involved...

i think i follow you at the end --> if a higher # of chorae are required to protect inorganic things and if the dragons are inorganic (or are in inorganic shells?) then the # of chorae required would be too high to be worth it?  is that right?  interesting idea!  Robot-Dragons!!!  Ewracu!

-------


maybe dragons are like the Seal from the end of TJE.  dragons bring with them a tide of unreality from the Outside so that chorae are generally ineffective?

Mimara will kill Wutteat!!!  Mimi...THE SLAYER


yeah its hard to know whether one chorae per organism is a thing but it seems like when skin contact with a chorae is made it imparts protection to the whole body and not just a spherical region  of influence. mog's carapace is most likely an outlier that was just important enough to get 11. I just dont think the anti sorcery effect of chorae conducts along inorganic things very well. else u could attach it to a wall or an iron cage and the whole thing should be sorcery resistant. So yeah wutteats hide being inorganic doesnt allow chorae to function well at protecting them from sorcery is my main hypothesis.

but i do like the simple explanation that its a tide of unreality. if u can have an undead dragon at this point  it doesnt seem like a stretch to make almost anything possible when u invoke the outside. kinda annoying sometimes because it make a lot of the plot twist more deus ex machnina than something u actually predict based off everything you've read so far. like if the rules of chorae were more fleshed out we wouldnt be having so many competing but uncertain hypotheses 5 books in lol, which is kinda ironic for a series that emphasises cause and effect so strongly in its philosophy  :P



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mrganondorf

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« Reply #116 on: October 07, 2015, 05:27:51 pm »
i hear you Spaces.  i'm going to hope for the best with TUC.  i bet Bakker won't have too much flimflam/deusex.  goddamnit i'm ready to hear the end of it even if it's like Kellhus is Akka's Tyler Durden or something

Wracu--will we see any graftings?  a 3 headed dragone might be nice.  or one with 2 big ding dongs.  serafim/dragons?  6 wings, 2 to cover their feet, 2 to cover their eyes, and 2 to fly with in the presence of the Most Holy Mog

Bashrag Dragonriders

Dragons dumping a squad of sranc into the center of a Great Ordeal formation

Dragons following illusions in the sky.  Kellhus confuses them so that 2 dragons run into each other, their heads collide, and Sam the Sound Guy his the "bonk" button

Kellhus smites a dragon from the sky and then it falls on and kills Kayutas

Kellhus hypnotizes a dragon and then has Moe Jr ride it into battle

Kellhus has Moe Jr touch a dragon with a chorae so Bakker's readers can finally get our answer

Kellhus does metagnosis to grow to be tallish.  Dragons perch on his shoulder while he punches the Horns

In an extended passage with nothing very disturbing, Bakker inserts a scene of mating dragons just to fuck with us

Wutteat, the dragon with hell within, dies in a fight with a Holy Dragon, one animated by Heaven and the God, the Fanim Dragon

The aforementioned dragon-riding Moe perishes in a touching scene: just after smiting down Wutteat, the last of the Consult Dragons, Moe's own stead hurtles, wounded, into the sea while Moe's last moments embrace the memory of Serwa's embrace

Wutteat tries to move into Ishual, finds it already has a Saurian resident, neither party is cool with roommates, they battle, Ishual is destroyed, Akka finds even more dead Wutteat entangled with corpse of dragon 2, Wutteat begs Akka to tell him the world is ended, Akka is like "nope, lol"