[Bolivar]

So you think he came up with that whole "there are no crimes when no one is left alive"on his own?

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[Aural]

Yeah, it seems likely to me that he was a Consult spy. Only problem is the “who are the Dûnyain” scene. Although you could argue that it was only Shaeönanra that knew about the Dûnyain and he didn’t tell Aurang because the latter is a blabber mouth as we know from the False Sun. A bit too speculative though...

[H]

I also have zero doubt that the Bardic Priest is a Consult spy.  This doesn't prove to me that the Consult is responsible for the Dunyain though.

As I reckon it, the Consult Connection doesn't seem to hold up.  Sure, there are plausible reasons why they could be, but for me they just don't add up.  Sure, the interrogation scene could be a farce for the readers, but that the just doesn't seem like Scott's usual MO of 'the truth, as they know it.'    Considering their...relationship...I tend to doubt that Shae has any real secrets from A&A now-a-days.

To me, it is far most plausible that either Celmomas sent the Dunyain there, or Seswatha.  This is due to the language clue (Dunyanic is closely related to Kûniüri, the language of both Celmomas and Seswatha), the fact that only those two knew of Ishual's location, and the subsequent blindness of the Consult to them.

[Wilshire]

So you think he came up with that whole "there are no crimes when no one is left alive"on his own?

Yes. Thats not even a inchoroi/consult thing, who believe that a staggering 144k someones are to be alive for them to be saved (read: for there to be no crime). A far cry from "no one".

Epilogue TWP should prove beyond doubt that the Consult know nothing of the Dunyain.

[Francis Buck]

Out of curiosity, what are the other reasons people think the Bard was a Consult spy? I mean aside from the "crime" quote? I skimmed through the thread looking for some more, and I've heard people mention it elsewhere, but I've never really seen a concise theory (not that I don't buy it, I just don't recall other connections).

[H]

General creepiness, those words, the sketchiness of the plague working it's way down the bloodline.  At least for me, that seems to say something is up with him and the Consult is the resident boogeyman, so there's that...

[Francis Buck]

Ah okay, forgot the plague thing. That makes sense. I'll have to re-read it soon (I've read the prologue, up to Kellhus vs. Mek, countless times, but it honestly never gets old).

[Bolivar]

To me, the line "there are no crimes when no one is left alive" is just too similar to Aurang's "so long as there are Men, there are crimes." We know that Shaeonanra favored using spies and that the Consult had them even in Celmomas' court, most notably Ieva.

The Warrior Prophet epilogue seems to contradict my theory but all it shows us is that Aurang is unaware of who they are. Given that we never hear anything about Shaeonanra or Aurax throughout the series, I'm inclined to believe they're up to something else in the background.

The connection between the Dunyain and the Consult stands out strongly to me, since both begin with the principal that life is mechanical, something which would be impossible for anyone to conceive of on Earwa, and the way that they both use love to manipulate people. The only way I could see the Inchoroi rediscovering the lost principles of the Tekne is if they isolated people away from the rest of the world and convinced them that the supernatural, magic, and other intelligent races weren't real. If they knew what Ishual was for, it's no small wonder that an Anasurimbor would return when the Consult is ready to resurrect the No-God. I also think it's too much of a crazy coincidence that Kellhus just happens to stumble upon Mekeritrig as one of the first people he meets after leaving Ishual.

[Wilshire]

I think the connections in philosophy are there, but I think its to provide kind of a foil "what if" to the Inchoroi, both in purpose and in scope. Inchoroi want to remove gods to save their species/soul, Dunyain want to become god to save themselves individually from the darkness. Inchoroi want to kill/eliminate most life, Dunyain released into the world want to control it all. Inchoroi superiority of intellect led to a life of hedonism, Dunyain superior intellect led to a life of complete devotion (no prodding with IF needed, and even considering the Inchoroi goal, post gods they would return to a life of hedonism). The two, which vaguely similar and connect, are quite opposite.

[Francis Buck]

Lots of good points there.

I do agree that Mek's appearance is super weird and absolutely needs some kind of explanation eventually. I also agree that both the Dunyain and the Consult having the same insight in regards to the "mechanical" nature of reality (even though we as readers know it's a rather superficial and incomplete philosophy) is vitally important. But I'm not sure it was more than, well, a coincidence. Or perhaps more appropriately, a sort of "convergent evolution" of philosophy/technology...eh, that's badly phrased, but hopefully someone gets what I'm saying and can help me out.

However, in response to your two points in the third paragraph, I do disagree to an extent:

The connection between the Dunyain and the Consult stands out strongly to me, since both begin with the principal that life is mechanical, something which would be impossible for anyone to conceive of on Earwa

I don't think this concept is at all impossible for an Earwan to conceive. After all, it is kind of true, though it has a limit. I think as readers (since we have at least SOME insight to the greater cosmology) we gradually lose the perspective that, in general, most of the people on Earwa really don't have a clue about the greater reality they live in. Even sorcerors like Akka, Eli, and Iyokus -- clearly familiar with some fraction of the supernatural -- have little definitive knowledge of how the universe seems to work. They all doubt Damnation. They fight and summon demons from the Outside, yet still question their own Damnation, and even the existence of the Gods.

Point being, I don't think it's terribly unlikely that some random mystic cult (I.E., the early Dunyain) may have stumbled upon the central concept of Causality in some form. Obviously the later Dunyain took it to another entirely, but shit...it's not like they weren't making some pretty evident progress. Even in ignorance, the Dunyain tapped into something...but what exactly that entails is another thread.

The only way I could see the Inchoroi rediscovering the lost principles of the Tekne is if they isolated people away from the rest of the world and convinced them that the supernatural, magic, and other intelligent races weren't real.

This is other thing I'm not convinced of. For clarification, I totally believe it's possible that the Consult are behind the Dunyain, in one way or another, but I do want to play Devil's Advocate here a bit.

Broadly, I don't have a problem believing that after the Ark crashed (or whatever happened there), and after the Nonmen wiped out most of what remained of the Inchoroi, that it legitimately took them several thousand years of reverse-engineering shit they didn't understand before they could do anything useful with it. I can buy the idea that if you take a warrior (say, Aurax), and give him effectively unlimited time, fueled by possibly the greatest drive of any living being possible (the avoidance of eternal, inconceivable torture after death)...well, I can imagine such an intellect will eventually figure some shit out. And even here, we're going off the idea that Aurax and Aurang had ZERO knowledge of the Tekne. It's entirely possible that the reason we haven't really seen Aurax is because he's busy in Golgotterath tinkering with the Tekne. We do have textual evidence -- admittedly flimsy, given the source -- that Aurax was the one who first taught the Old Science to the Mangaecca.

In summary, I think it's totally possible that the Inchoroi had no clue of the Dunyain, and in a classic dramatic twist, never anticipated their greatest enemy (the Dunyain) being the ones that beat them to the punch at their own game

Again, I'm not really convinced by this argument, or the contrary. Just trying to create discussion. For me, the Consult's involvement with the Dunyain is pretty a much a 50/50. Neither result would shock me, nor would it bother me. I just don't think we know enough at this point.

I think the connections in philosophy are there, but I think its to provide kind of a foil "what if" to the Inchoroi, both in purpose and in scope. Inchoroi want to remove gods to save their species/soul, Dunyain want to become god to save themselves individually from the darkness. Inchoroi want to kill/eliminate most life, Dunyain released into the world want to control it all. Inchoroi superiority of intellect led to a life of hedonism, Dunyain superior intellect led to a life of complete devotion (no prodding with IF needed, and even considering the Inchoroi goal, post gods they would return to a life of hedonism). The two, which vaguely similar and connect, are quite opposite.

I like this as well.

[Bolivar]

The question of whether life is mechanical is the central issue of the series and all of Bakker's writings. It's something Kellhus struggles with the moment he steps outside Ishual, how the principle remains true, despite everything he experiences. The Tekne's premise that life is mechanical is outright rejected by the appendix author, who lives in a world where the soul precedes everything. So it jumps out to me when the Dunyain's "Conditioning" is lying to them to believe all of the supernatural aspects of Earwa are superstition. I also kinda see the No-God's inability to perceive itself as evidence of its failure, and why the Consult would want to create a self moving soul after its rising.

I don't deny it's a crackpot! But the connection is the and I have to think they were created to either complete or destroy the Consult's work, much like we wonder if Kellhus is the savior or the villain.

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[H]

One little nit-pick though FB, is that there is a good chance we have actually seen Aurax.  The "interrogation" end scene seems to have been him.

I base this off the fact that if Kellhus was right and the way the Synthese works is by Aurang's body being enscorceled over from inside the Ark, then that had to be Aurax out there, culling humans.  I'm also just inclined to believe that Scott showed us Aurax on purpose, to show that they aren't both reliant on the Synthese.

Now I've rambled on quite a bit and forgot my point.  I'll try to find it again later...

Another thing is that Aurang was seemingly the 'warrior' of the two, being the Horde General and Spearbearer of Sil.  All we are told of Aurax was that rumors said he taught the Mangaecca the Tekne.  I've said this before, I think, but I don't believe that either brother is an expert on the Tekne.  I think actually all of them on the Ark were probably just end users, which is why they lost so much technology over time.

[Francis Buck]

I actually agree that the Inchoroi we see in the TWP epilogue is Aurax (since Aurang otherwise seems a bit too busy down south at that time).

I also do agree that, most likely, neither of the Inchoroi twins were originally masters of the Tekne, and were probably, as you say, "end users". But that was more or less my point (I did a poor job of clarifying this though); give a random soldier immortality, add 4000-ish years of study, and then motivate him with the threat of absolute, irreversible, unimaginable existential torture for all eternity should they fail...and you'll probably get some results.

Really though, I think Shauriatas was the key. Aurax may have introduced him to the fundamentals and such, but before Shae, the Inchoroi did not seem to be making much progress, if any, since the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.

It's as if they required an Earwan perspective in order to match up their ideals with the realities of Earwa (and by extension, the Outside). So far as we know, before reaching Earwa the Inchoroi were basically just decimating planets, one after another. The No-God seems, at least partially, a contribution from Shae and the Mangaecca. The Inchoroi may have had the idea such a thing, but were either limited by their knowledge of cosmology, or simply incapable of creating this being anywhere but Earwa (I think a combination is likely; the aliens were surprised by sorcery, after all).

[H]

I think you're right, it took Shae to get some things moving.  However, when I think of what the Consult managed to do with the Tekne, it really says to me that they largely failed to capture what their technology could fully do.  When I think of Wracu, the Heron Spear, the Ark, then see what and (presumably) how they achieved Bashrags and Sranc, it definitely seems to me to show a lack of mastery.

I realize now I am dragging this thread way out of line though.  Maybe I'll dig up a Tekne thread later and talk more about it.

To get more in line, I think the question of Kellhus being good or evil is not answerable, because I don't think he is either.  I don't think this series is really about good versus evil.  It's about subjective meaning.

[SilentRoamer]

Seems strange all these comparisons to Foundation and no talk of the Mule...

In Foundation the Mule fears the Second Foundation could stop him. Throws to mind a number of comparisons between the Mule and Kellhus (especially if you consider that Hari Seldon did not take into account the Mule into his plans).

Anyway just wanted to throw it out there.