The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 03:38:54 pm
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Think about it. Proyas = the biblical Peter, the first pope. "On this rock I will build my church."
EDIT TO ADD: Peter in latin is Petrus. Petrus = Proyas. It explains the chats in the umbilicus.
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Good idea.
He just needs to survive.
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It seems from Maithanet at the end of WLW that Kellhus actually no longer communicates with the New Empire. Yet Kellhus tells Proyas that he has connections in Momemn.
I don't think the Ordeal cares about the Shriah. They follow a living God, so they think - though Happy Ent is right... Kellhus is the most able tool, if the Divine sought to work its will. But ultimately, the benefit, the social dividends, of declaring a new Shriah are in Momemn and the New Empire.
Kellhus going south?
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Good idea.
He just needs to survive.
:)
Kellhus going south?
Just a hop, skip, and a jump away.
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I am making one assumption here, and that is that Kellhus doesn't plan on returning.
Good idea.
He just needs to survive.
I think the conversation in the umbilicus isn't about him surviving, it's about him dying. Otherwise, why hint at his mortality, and show him speaking to his true nature?
After that (and who knows, maybe the circumfix prefigures what we'll see in TUC) it'll be up to Proyas and the rest of the gang to promote his ascension to godhood through their worship of his ultimate sacrifice.
But ultimately, the benefit, the social dividends, of declaring a new Shriah are in Momemn and the New Empire.
I'm not sure there will be a New Empire without the return of at least a fragment of the Ordeal. Those that survive the confrontation with the Consult will take home a power structure, through Proyas' Shrial authority, that connects them directly to their martyred emperor. If his whole bureaucratic/religious mechanism ends with him at the gates of Dagliash or Golgotterath (again, assuming that dying is part of the plan) then no one will survive to continue his worship in the Three Seas proper. I don't think that's in Kellhus' playbook.
I'll echo speculation I've seen elsewhere on the forum: could he be the voice in Kelmomas' head? Could he have orchestrated the attack on the Shriah by Inrilatas by manipulating Kel? Then that failing, used Kel to goad Esmenet into her attack? Looking back at WLW, there were a lot of forces directed against Maithanet. Who better than Kellhus, the ultimate puppet-master? Perhaps he was clearing the station of Shriah to make way for a replacement with suitable credibility among the nobles. Proyas.
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I think Maithanet was already the perfect Shriah and I doubt Kellhus would have wanted to replace him with Proyas.
Honestly, sans Kellhus, I don't actually know what holds the Ordeal together. I think humankind would devolve into their former conceptual paradigms. And I think the conversations in the Umbilicus are undeniably about reuniting with Achamian, as well.
The Ordeal itself returning South by the end of TUC is unlikely. Unless they get they're asses beat at Dagliash... But coming right back across the Plains?
I do agree that Kellhus is going to die and/or fake his own death though. +1 on that.
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Dunno. Maybe Kellhus was worried about Maithanet's affiliation with Moenghus?
What are your thoughts on why Kellhus would want to fake his own death? I haven't seen this explored in great detail.
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Not sure if this has come up yet, the series is called The Second Apocalypse. So far they haven't exactly been faced with the real crisis of apocalypse. I'm kind of counting on the Ordeal failing, I feel that's part of the reason we can't know the name of the following duology/trilogy
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+1 Camlost. I figure that's starting to seem more and more likely as I consider the title and Willem's suggestion. It would parallel the defeat of the Investiture by the first Ordeal - as Kellhus' is the second by historical measure.
I honestly had wilder imaginations once that the last series would be called The First Apocalypse.
Willem, my thoughts are the conversation with Proyas as you suggested - they seem to highlight that Proyas is going to have to do without Kellhus and reunite with Achamian. Also, it would make sense why the Ordeal would need the Nonmen, if Kellhus is going to ditch them.
I also figure that the visions of the White-Luck will come to pass. I think that Kellhus is going to dominate circumstance - that what looks like his death is either part of an ascension play or faking it to defect to the Consult in secret? Or he expects the Consult to resurrect him in order to understand the Dunyain?
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Camlosts' point may well be correct. But I feel like Kellhus can't fail. If I reconcile those two things it leads to Kellhus fucking over the Ordeal somehow.
All of that said, one of the many things I love about this series is how nothing will surprise me. Kellhus could ascend to Godhood or be simply slain by the WLW or anything in between. Moe Sr. could be running the entire show form inside the Solitary God's brain or he could be completely gone. Meppa could be Fane reincarnate and proof that The God has been awoken or he could just be some guy w/ more Water than he can handle.
The Captain could be some fanatic or he could have returned from Hell itself with his soul forged anew.
Seswatha could be the savior or he could have been jerking us all around all along.
Other planets and grounds may matter or they may not.
I could go on and on and on, but all of this stuff seems to matter.
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Camlosts' point may well be correct. But I feel like Kellhus can't fail. If I reconcile those two things it leads to Kellhus fucking over the Ordeal somehow.
All of that said, one of the many things I love about this series is how nothing will surprise me. Kellhus could ascend to Godhood or be simply slain by the WLW or anything in between. Moe Sr. could be running the entire show form inside the Solitary God's brain or he could be completely gone. Meppa could be Fane reincarnate and proof that The God has been awoken or he could just be some guy w/ more Water than he can handle.
The Captain could be some fanatic or he could have returned from Hell itself with his soul forged anew.
Seswatha could be the savior or he could have been jerking us all around all along.
Other planets and grounds may matter or they may not.
I could go on and on and on, but all of this stuff seems to matter.
Good one.
Secrest and non-linear predictability. Open Steppe. Many count it as the major strenght of the series.
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Oh... I fully expect that Bakker will surprise us :twisted: .
May my mind crack on the shores of the incomprehensible.
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I think Kellhus is likely to die, but he will seize the moment and make of it a foundation for the Ordeal to continue on. I can also imagine a poetic moment where Kellhus lay dying and Akka kneels by his side much like Seswatha did Celmomas'. There have been so many parallels between the first and second apocalypse so far that that would seem like an appropriate culmination in my mind
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Big +1, Camlost. Can't wait for that one either. It smacks of inevitability, doesn't it...
As would the parallel of the Three Seas having to rely on a secondary civilization, like you and others suggest, Zeum parallels Kyranea (sp?).
Kneeling before Kellhus...
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Proyas might end up as Shriah eventually, but I doubt he will be Maithanet's direct successor. I only say this because Maithanet is already dead and Proyas is marching with the Great Ordeal. Kellhus' motives for revealing parts his true nature to Proyas are still vague, but I suspect they have more to do with the direct issue of the Consult (or possibly long term plans which could very well involve making Proyas the Shriah eventually).
I'm thinking that Esmenet will try to name her own puppet-Shriah to the position, and the consequences of her choice will probably act to fuel the conflict within the Empire while the Ordeal is off fighting in the north.
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It's definitely a trifecta of fucked at Momemn, Centurion. I don't think that Esmenet will name a Shriah as the Fanim are at the gates. However, she'll want the Shrial Knights. She'll probably just subsume Shriah too and add to her Totalitarian Matriarchy, for now. After all, Kellhus is God and she is his Vessel (its like matryoshka dolls around here) - also just reiterating fiction here, not sure I believe those last two assertions, just citing the rhetoric she'll use.
Clearly, Fanayal has been co-opted. The Witness of Fane burns at Psatma's touch. I think Meppa just plays a different game altogether.
It's all about spiritual (read metaphysical) power. How can Fanayal have a use for Psatma besides her being a prize concubine? Yet she gains everything by being reunited with the White-Luck Warrior? After all, though Fanayal wishes to bring down the Kellian Empire, its the Cults who ultimately have to gain from Maithanet's death and the demise of Kellhus' reign. Kiunnat beliefs still reflect holding the Tusk as Sacred.
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Kellhus lay dying and Akka kneels by his side
For Akka to scalp him that is. He is after all on the SLOG.
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I suppose Esmenet might try to subsume the title of Shriah in the short term, but I was almost positive that the position was strictly patriarchal. Does anyone know if this is ever explicitly stated?
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For Akka to scalp him that is. He is after all on the SLOG.
Imagine how much the Aspect-Emperor's scalp would fetch, or a living god's for that matter. Kind of makes the Coffers seem paltry in comparison.. :)
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I feel like that might be the point, Centurion. Esmenet doesn't want to be a tyrant but that is quickly what she's becoming. Also, in the absence of Kellhus - she holds real power. Bakker's going somewhere with his gender arguments. At the first, its been about modernism (Kellhus) leveraging not gender equality, but gender utility... the Kellian Empire exists as a Matriarchy right now?
Esmenet assuming the title of Shriah allows for Bakker to continue problematizing gender...
Just thoughts.
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“The Cultic priestesses of Yatwer… always [drag] two victims—usually spring lambs—to the sacrificial altar, one to pass under the knife, the other to witness the sacred passage. In this way, every beast thrown upon the altar always [knows], in its dim way, what [is] about to happen. For the Yatwerians, ritual [isn’t] enough: the transformation of casual slaughter into true sacrifice [requires] recognition.”
Feels like this little info-seed will become manifest in TUC on a much larger scale. The themes of fertility and sacrifice are getting thick as we head into the endgame.
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@Madness:
That is certainly a possibility.
Bakker's symbolism and sociocultural commentaries aside, it will be interesting to see how Esmenet ultimately weighs the pros and cons of naming a successor to Maithanet with all the pitfalls which that decision will inherently hold, and the possibility of assuming the title of Shriah herself which will almost certainly broaden the rebels base of support. Her primary goal seems to be the preservation of the Empire as a means of protecting herself and her children. Just thinking out loud here...
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Honestly, Momemn is kind of a shit show.
Random thoughts:
Firstly, Fanayal has to be a pawn. All that he's accomplishing, he's doing for the Kiunnat Cults, because Fanimry certainly isn't going to reap the spoils of bringing down Esmenet.
Second, Meppa knows this. When Psatma tells Meppa that Fanayal is annoited but not by who Meppa thinks, he doesn't contradict her... he just doesn't respond?
Third, Meppa is a wildcard. Psatma is the Titular Leader of the Cultic Revolt, she's happy to see Fanayal travel to Momemn, because ultimately she wants to bring down the Kellian Empire. So Meppa must have ulterior goals, aside helping Fanayal. Fanayal's bottom rung. He's doing all the work yet he's the surest to reap no reward.
Four, will the Cults within the city seek to help the Fanim or oppose them? The White-Luck's perspective refers to enemy drums - so he will fight them? Will the Cults seek to free Psatma, oppose the Fanim, then take down Momemn?
Finally, what will the Avatars do when the No-God rises? All conflict among humankind will cease instantly but the Avatars won't recognize this - in fact, they'll wonder why everyone stops fighting and looks north suddenly as one...
+1 for Thoughts, Centurion.
Willem, that is a passage from the Warrior-Prophet, I believe, when Achamian is ruminating about giving Kellhus up to the Mandate.
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Firstly, Fanayal has to be a pawn. All that he's accomplishing, he's doing for the Kiunnat Cults, because Fanimry certainly isn't going to reap the spoils of bringing down Esmenet.
My thoughts exactly. No one in charge in Earwa ever accomplishes anything and gets rewarded unless they are Dunyain, and even then they still get stabbed.
The White-Luck's perspective refers to enemy drums - so he will fight them? Will the Cults seek to free Psatma, oppose the Fanim, then take down Momemn?
Enemy drums is a nice catch. Hopefully the cults will not recognize the Fanim army as some kind of savior and will oppose them. It would be a let down if they just walked all over Momemn. I'd hope at least that they keep Meppa in the back for a while and waste some time throwing themselves at the walls and such.
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I figure Meppa uses Fanayal just as everyone else does - to his own ends. But I figure Fanayal will try to unleash him straightaway against the Momemn's walls and I figure Meppa will obey up until that point when he does not.
Also, I'm think Ajokli and Kellhus are both making plays through Kelmomas - I starting to think that Samarmas can't be the Voice but is, in fact, as joint souls, representative of something other.
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"The God punishes us according to the degree we resemble him."
Inrilatas towered before him.
"And you resemble him, little brother. You resemble ..."
... Ajokli?...
Memories tumbled into his soul's eye. Memories of his Whelming, how he had followed the beetle to the feet of the Grinning God, the Four-horned Brother, how they had laughed when he had maimed the bug - laughed together! Memories of the Yatwerian priestess, how she had shreiked blood while the Mother of Fertility stood helpless ...
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+1. The first I think actually references your thoughts about grasping the Absolute and the God/mud at the bottom. Inrilatas has seen more.
Second one's all Ajokli.
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Those quotes are only seperated by a paragraph talking about Kel's love for Mommy being a shroud for something else.
That part of the conversation seems all about the 'divine' agency possessed by Kellhus' hyper-emotional kids.
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Interesting...
I'd always read that as Inrilatas talking about grasping the God of Gods and Kelmomas internalizing that within his own worldview.
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I think their convo should be veiwed as two dunyain going at it. They aren't just chatting...
Kelmomas wants Inrilatas to kill Maitha, something he suspects his brother already wants to do.
He moves the conversation towards Inrilatas' motivations - why doesn't he pretend so that he can be free of his imprisonment?
Inrilatus wants to know Kelmomas' motivating passions too - what voice speaks to him. But that is probably only so he can condition Kelmomas into his grasp... "Let me look inside your mouth."
The difference between them and Kellhus is control.
As Kellhus says to Proyas - "You wonder what passions move me."
Weird (and probably thematicaly significant) how Maitha is surprised by Inrilatas' 'soft' bones.
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Disagree.
Inrilatas is not a playing as Dunyain. Only Kelmomas plays a false game. I think Inrilatas is all truth here.
I wonder who Inrilatas would have guessed is the Voice?!
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Weird (and probably thematicaly significant) how Maitha is surprised by Inrilatas' 'soft' bones.
Yeah don't know what that is exactly supposed to mean. Maitha is half dunyain just like Kellhus' children. So it can't be the Dunyain traits that make up for the soft bones.
If it is strictly a comment on physical traits, then the parents become important, or since both fathers where full Dunyain, the mothers become important. We don't ever hear anything about Maitha's mother, which I find a bit odd considering how difficult it would have been for Kellhus to find a suitable mate if Esmi didn't fall into his lap. Maybe something about the third sight allowed Moe to be able to fine a soul probably proportioned for baring a half Dunyain child.
Though of course it could just be a way to describe their difference in upbringing. I assume that Maitha got pretty much the full Dunyain training, while Kell's children where largely abandoned. The soft bones business coming from the rigors of Dunyain child rearing, forced development of muscles and bones beyond strictly natural standards (like martial arts guys who can break bricks and wood that would snap a normal persons hand. Bones grow back stronger when damaged/broken).
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+1 Wilshire -- that sounds very plausible.
And speaking of Maitha's mother, it would seem that such a suitably proportioned soul is something to behold. I wonder if she'll ever play a part in the story or if we'll ever even learn who she is.
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"The God punishes us according to the degree we resemble him."
Inrilatas towered before him.
"And you resemble him, little brother. You resemble ..."
... Ajokli?...
Memories tumbled into his soul's eye. Memories of his Whelming, how he had followed the beetle to the feet of the Grinning God, the Four-horned Brother, how they had laughed when he had maimed the bug - laughed together! Memories of the Yatwerian priestess, how she had shreiked blood while the Mother of Fertility stood helpless ...
Ah yes. His memories go back to only the point of his whelming, and seemingly no further. Is his Dunyain subconscious trying to tell him something about the Whelming, only to be distracted yet again by the Beetle?
And like Kelmomas, I feel my own brain being distracted. Oh SHINY! Beetle, funny/horrific description, implications of sadism etc. What a good way to distract the audience from seeing the magic trick by directing their attention to the other part of the paragraph, Bakker!
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Inrilatas is not a playing as Dunyain. Only Kelmomas plays a false game. I think Inrilatas is all truth here.
I wonder who Inrilatas would have guessed is the Voice?!
But he is when talking to Maitha?
"Strange, isn't it, Uncle? The way we Dunyain, for all our gifts, can never speak?"
Theliopa says that Inrilatas is second only to Kellhus in his ability to read passions. I don't think he's guessing by the end of his convo with lil Kel.
And I'm pretty sure this bit of Kel's POV confirms Inrilatas is playing as Dunyain:
He breathes as you breathe, the secret voice whispered, blinks as you blink - even his heartbeat captures your own! He draws your unthinking soul into the rythyms of his making. He mesmerizes you!
Doesn't mean Inrilatus isn't all truth though. Truth and ignorance are the weapons of the Dunyain, after all.
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I honestly don't think Inrilatas has any goals, or intent, Curethan. None bound in sanity, anyhow.
And I'm pretty sure this bit of Kel's POV confirms Inrilatas is playing as Dunyain:
I think the exercise of Inrilatas' innate Dunyain abilities are thoughtless, incidental to what he's doing. It is the selfsame reason why he plays Maithanet. I don't think Inrilatas is using his gifts actively but his perceptions and behaviors, obviously, are passively enhanced regardless. A Dunyain's skill lies is reading anothers intent. Inrilatas has none, which is why he makes his meta-comment that you quoted, Curethan.
"I possess his sensitivities, but I utterly lack his unity.... his control ... I am the World's only unbound soul" (WLW, p225).
"Do you ever wonder, Kel, why it is I do what I do? ... I do it to heap damnation upon myself" (p228)
"So the God is ... unconstrained? ... so the God is like me." (p229)
My bold, text italics. I often wonder whether Inrilatas is in the deepest Hell or the brightest Heaven...
"Suddenly this little room, this shit-stained prison cell hidden from the light of shame, seemed a holy place, a temple to a different revelation, the nail of a darker heaven" (p229)
Little segue:
"Is she the grudge you bear against Uncle?" (p226)
Kellhus would sound Kelmomas instantly if he knew... which means he does or... he doesn't ;).
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Fair enough.
I simply see Inrilatas' short term goals as valid. Insane, certainly, but objectives none the less and no less valid than those of Kelmomas/Kelmomas' voice.
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They just scratch out the bits of the book they don't like, right?
Anyway, I doubt she's been left with real power. The empire has been left to burn, so the great ordeal has no where to go when the final, true ordeal is revealed to them. But I guess even if Kellhus calculated all the forces that would invade the empire (and left it to happen), if he leaves, it is kind of outside forces that are doing it, so maybe she has been left with the power?
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They just scratch out the bits of the book they don't like, right?
Anyway, I doubt she's been left with real power. The empire has been left to burn, so the great ordeal has no where to go when the final, true ordeal is revealed to them. But I guess even if Kellhus calculated all the forces that would invade the empire (and left it to happen), if he leaves, it is kind of outside forces that are doing it, so maybe she has been left with the power?
Crackpot:
Esmenet was taught the gnosis by Kellhus in secret, she rises up at the last moment and wipes the floor with the invading armies and helps the small band of decrepit schoolmen Kell left behind to destroy Meppa.
WLW, Fanyal, and the last cisharium defeated all at once.
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The Kellian Empire isn't going to fall... It'll teeter, perhaps, be reduced to Nansur status once again. The No-God is going to rise again...
Humanity unites towards the North.
Curethan, Kelmomas actually accomplishes what he went to do... everything else was useless semantics. He left the tool, which would free his brother and cause Maithanet's revolt. Not that that's what Kelmomas planned. Chaos rules?
Inrilatas believes what he's saying! He's the ultimate "no-filter."
EDIT: Also, I made a comment to Callan in Cnaiur's understanding to Kellhus thread in TTT subforum that Inrilatas would undermine the Conditioned Earwa Kellhus has created because Inrilatas won't control his innatities, if that helps my conception.
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After Caesar is slain, Esmenet marries Antony.
So Fanayal.
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I don't know...the Inrilatas and Kelmomas dialogue always sort of disappointed me. I never felt like either character was anything but insane. Irilatas talks a big game, has powers of perception and deduction to rival his father, but in the end he still spends his spare time throwing poop and foaming at the mouth. Kelmomas hears a voice in his head which may or may not be the soul of his own twin brother.
It seems obvious to me that Kellhus took efforts to remove Inrilatas from his grand schemes by imprisoning him. I suppose that Kellhus could have just killed Inrilatas like Moenghus took care of his own flawed offspring, but I suspect that he chose not to as a way of maintaining order and placating Esmenet who has already been stretched to limit by her pregnancies and who Kellhus still needs.
Kelmomas represents a real enigma within a narrative already full of mysteries. He's crazy, and even if his mind is serving as a vessel for his brother's soul he's still pretty nuts (ex. sadist and cannibal). His existence troubles me for these reasons:
---Kelmomas believes that he has managed to hide beneath his father's gaze for so long because Kellhus has spent most of his time away. However, Inrilatas was able to probe Kelmomas almost instantly. It would seem to defy reason that Kellhus, a pure Dunyain, would not instantly notice the same irregularities in his son's face and manner that Inrilatas was able to catch onto almost instantly.
---Madness already said it: Kellhus either knows about Kelmomas or he doesn't, but both options have problems. I've already pointed out the problem of Kellhus NOT knowing that there is something wrong with Kelmomas, but I suppose I could get around my hangups for the sake of the overall narrative. Of course, what if Kellus DOES know about Kelmomas? This has to be an option, but it also makes zero sense. Why would Kellhus leave Kelmomas to run around free if he knows that the little monster is a psychopathic murderer? Dunyain power is based on rationality, the Logos, and the irrationality of insanity would fundamentally alter their ability to calculate probability. Mundane insanity might be something an intellect like Kellhus could work around, but throw Dunyain blood into the mix and everything changes (ex. Inrilatas' interrogation of Maithenet).
Moenghus himself claimed that his plan for Kellhus was ultimately flawed because he could not calculate the final reaction of the Inrithi nobility to Kellhus once he began to make his power-grab. Similarly, Kellhus' sight and influence would have to be limited by his absence on the Great Ordeal, so if he has any long-term plans with his empire it should have behooved him to remove as many variables as possible.
In the end, I find myself coming to the conclusion that Kelmomas and Inrilatas are both just lunatics who happen to have a powerful genetic predisposition to super-genius intellects. They both acted outside Kellhus' plans, but possibly within the greater structure of Kellhus' decision to abandon the Three Seas (assuming that Maithenet's conclusion was correct). Inrilatas is dead now, and so is Maithenet. However, Kelmomas is still out there, and that leaves a strong possibility of further breaks in Kellhus' plan. Again, it is possible that Kellhus does understand the madness within his son, but it stretches belief that he would also be able to perfectly manipulate Kelmomas' actions while thousands of miles away.
On a completely unrelated note: Has anyone tried to figure out a distance scale for the Earwa map?
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First up, easy one:
Earwa is actually some four or five times the size of Europe. I put that allusory analogue of the Norwegian coast along the top as a sneaky way to guage the land masses involved.
I've updated my collection of quotes in the collected sayings thread - there is more about populations etc in there.
Inrilatas' motivations are strictly short term because of how the passions blow through him. He only lacks control. Thus the tendency towards honesty.
Kelmomas is trying to manipulate Inrilatus so that he will kill Maitha. Think about how difficult it is to hide your motivations when manipulating people like that.
There's the difference between hiding his nature from Inrilatas and hiding from Kellhus.
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but in the end he still spends his spare time throwing poop and foaming at the mouth.
Inrilatas is choosing to Damn himself as much as possible... It's that awesome?!
I've already pointed out the problem of Kellhus NOT knowing that there is something wrong with Kelmomas
Sorry, interested, where?
For my part, no matter what Kellhus' knowledge, he's irrevocably tampered with our reading of Kelmomas because we don't know what Kelmomas was like before his Whelming, even if nothing changed.
Again, it is possible that Kellhus does understand the madness within his son, but it stretches belief that he would also be able to perfectly manipulate Kelmomas' actions while thousands of miles away.
Is it such a stretch? The Gods, specifically Ajokli, must factor into Kellhus' plans... Even if the Kellian Empire is simply to distract them.
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Inrilatas is choosing to Damn himself as much as possible... It's that awesome?!
I just don't buy it. I know it's a personal opinion, but there it is. The books are so focused on perception and the definition of reality and truth in relation to the self, but neither Inrilatas nor Kelmomas are equipped to process their surroundings objectively. It's like both of them are looking at the world with these awesome minds, but they can only see reality through the reflection of a broken mirror. There might be many things which they can see and understand, but there's so many other things adulterated by their overriding passions (this is way more obvious with Kelmomas since we actually get POV with him). We ultimately have no way of knowing if Irilatas is as cogent as he claims, and I have trouble believing he is.
You could argue that all of the characters (except Kellhus) have to deal with the same issues of perception, but the entire cast isn't insane. Kelmomas is clearly mad, and Inrilatas makes a strong case for himself.
Sorry, interested, where?
Sorry. I meant that for me the issue of Kellhus is a problem. If Inrilatas can see Kelmomas' inner voice after only a short dialogue it seems a stretch that Kellhus would have missed the same even if he was gone most of the time (another personal opinion here).
Is it such a stretch? The Gods, specifically Ajokli, must factor into Kellhus' plans... Even if the Kellian Empire is simply to distract them.
It's always possible that this is all part of Kellhus' plan, but I prefer when Kellhus acts within the bounds of some sort of structure as opposed to something more akin to dues ex machina. I don't see any structure here. I'm sure that if Bakker means for this to all be part of the Plan he will reveal the pertinent information in time, but for now I just don't see it. It seems more likely to me that Kelmomas is acting on his own to satsify his own base desires (and helping to push the Empire down a path Kellhus probably suspected was inevitable anyway). Of course, at the same time I am left wondering how Kellhus could NOT know about Kelmomas, and if he did know he chose not address the issue. It's all very circular, and for the time being it's the only major problem I have with the Aspect-Emperor.
Lot's of personal opinions up there.^
Anyway, I'm assuming a lot at this point just because there's not a whole lot we know yet (and we all know what assuming does). Probably best to take it all with a grain of salt.
Edit: Thanks for the info on Earwa's scale!
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+1. Articulate post, Centurion.
I'd suggest that Inrilatas is as cogent and bound by ruthlessly honest Dunyain reflection as we're assuming... but that is definitely, personal assertion.
+1 Flashback Inrilatas vs. Kellhus Conversation?
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I have no evidence to base this on, but it seems possible that Ajokli could be hiding Kelmomas' face much like Yatwer is hiding Sorweel's.
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It's certainly possible, kalstone. I do wonder what others influence the Agencies of the Outside can have on the mundane world...
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Favorite term, dues ex machina, just seems so badass. Though, yeah I hope Kellhus doesnt turn into that (I also dont think it likely). In time everything will be explained... actually I doubt it. I imagine that all the information will be available to come to the proper final conclusion but I seriously doubt that most stuff will be solved for us.
Kind of on topic:
Who else, other than Proyas who is the obviously choice, might Kellhus plan to leave his empire to once he is gone? Or who is he really preparing to hand the reins over too (He could be preparing Proyas for something more short term)?
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Who else, other than Proyas who is the obviously choice, might Kellhus plan to leave his empire to once he is gone? Or who is he really preparing to hand the reins over too (He could be preparing Proyas for something more short term)?
Good question. I would suggest to put it on topic of its own.
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Who else, other than Proyas who is the obviously choice, might Kellhus plan to leave his empire to once he is gone? Or who is he really preparing to hand the reins over too (He could be preparing Proyas for something more short term)?
Good question. I would suggest to put it on topic of its own.
I try to only make new topics that I can follow up with my own ideas first, but I've next to none here :P
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I truly believe all that Kellhus is preparing Proyas for is to lead the Ordeal without him and reunite, sans animosity, with Achamian.
I think if Kellhus cares about humanity at all, then he's going to become a Villain in order for humanity to defeat Evil, or some such... But that's too nicely wrapped for my tastes.
Whatever crumbles now, crumbles until the Second Apocalypse is over. I don't think civil stability is in the cards for Earwa at the moment.
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Not only preparing Proyas to lead when leaves, but also I don't think it likley Proyas will survive. He's preparing him to sacrifice.
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Dagliash is going to be intense!
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Like this idea. Proyas makes a better shriah than Maithanet, because Proyas BELIEVES! I bet Maitha just thinks of Kellhus as a bigger predator. Maitha thinks he could do Kellhus' job if Maitha just had the right blood/training.
This would all fit with Kelmomas being Kellhus' "agent in Momen."
I don't think Esmenet can/will try to name a new shriah yet. All the chaos may prevent the proceedings from occurring or finishing and the absence of a shriah makes its forces easier for her to use. Leaves the door open for Kellhus to simply decree Proyas as next shriah.
CRAZY: Psatma is elected to be the new shriah!
If we are watching the unfolding of a Jesus/Judas/Peter end game, then I think it's relevant that someone is manipulating events to make Akka hate Kellhus for stealing Esmi. That her womb would be the only viable womb seems ridiculous to me--there must be some kind of markless intervention going on. So Kellhus must take her, so Akka must hate.
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I don't think Esmenet can/will try to name a new shriah yet. All the chaos may prevent the proceedings from occurring or finishing and the absence of a shriah makes its forces easier for her to use. Leaves the door open for Kellhus to simply decree Proyas as next shriah.
CRAZY: Psatma is elected to be the new shriah!
I wrote upthread that Esmenet will probably just take the title of Shriah for herself? But I like your crazy.
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Or the Thousand Temples becomes a minor religion, and Psatma makes some kind new order with all the cults, with Yatwer up at the top.
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Or the Thousand Temples becomes a minor religion, and Psatma makes some kind new order with all the cults, with Yatwer up at the top.
OY, Yatwer the Opportunist!
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Maybe we're going to see Kellhus teaching Proyas and Saccarees how to mumify and grasp the Aspect-Emperor's heart.
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Maybe we're going to see Kellhus teaching Proyas and Saccarees how to mumify and grasp the Aspect-Emperor's heart.
Hmm, only if Kellhus hasn't found a better way to achieve immortality. Though I think Seswatha survives in some way due to the ritual, he doesn't have enough direct control (or agency) for someone like Kellhus to be satisfied.
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Perhaps this is how Kellhus dies on the WLW's broken sword: teleporting Proyas back to install him as the new Shriah.