The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: CondYoke on July 13, 2016, 12:16:32 am

Title: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: CondYoke on July 13, 2016, 12:16:32 am
Previous ARC discussion (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1781.0)

I couldn't seem to post to the ARC thread, but I thought the discussion was awesome- one question I thought was interesting is concerning what type of singing Serwa will be doing. One thought I had was maybe linguistically there is a difference between a Dunyain "portion" and Kelhus's "dread portion"- perhaps dread=damned? This would point more specifically to her song being a sorcerous one.
In addition, Sorweel tells her to sing- does he know about her mundane singing in this case? True, his knowledge isn't necessary for her to act, but given her reaction to him, the fact that in that moment he touched the chorae, she saw him as "real", points toward a "correspondence of cause", no?

Also it's interesting to think about how the Dunyain all describe the legion within, alternately as 'portion' and  'fraction'. Not sure what to make of it- nor of Serwa seeing Sorweel as "real"- but I think it points to, as someone else named it, Sorwa- the ultimate power couple of the series that shall not be named?

[EDIT Madness]: For link to the ARC discussion.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on July 13, 2016, 12:27:45 am
Sorweel started growing on me in WLW. I think he has came into his own in TGO, and is a genuinely great character. In so interested to see which way he goes after his revelations in Ishterebinth. I mean what's left of his face? It sent chills down my spine when Oiranous (sp?) ripped off the mask.....gnarly.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on July 13, 2016, 12:37:16 am
I couldn't seem to post to the ARC thread, but I thought the discussion was awesome

You've done exactly what I'd like to see happen, CondYoke. Thanks :).

The ARC subforum is read-only. To help that fresh start here on the TGO subforum, we thought it best to freeze the subforum and let newcomers and old readers continue the threads anew as they please. We'll see about eventually consolidating the ARC subforum threads into the TGO subforum proper but, personally, I think it's a neat part of the monument - an encapsulated time and space :).
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on July 13, 2016, 12:42:43 am
I was gonna make a new thread for each, and let conversation continue. Maybe copy and paste first post from each?
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on July 13, 2016, 12:58:13 am
I was gonna make a new thread for each, and let conversation continue. Maybe copy and paste first post from each?

I might've just moved threads to TGO subforum in that case, MSJ, you don't need to take that time.

However, if you do, maybe make the first sentence of that post a link to the previous thread?

EDIT: Though, how CondYoke has done it is also fine. You know me. Just obsessed with trying not to discourage participation :).
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: CondYoke on July 13, 2016, 02:31:18 am
I'm working my way through the ARC sub forum, and would love a way to quote/ respond to thoughts you've already posted, or at least add on to the end.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on July 13, 2016, 03:00:57 am
Just copy and paste.... and maybe add who wrote it above the quote?
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on July 13, 2016, 03:36:54 am
I'm working my way through the ARC sub forum, and would love a way to quote/ respond to thoughts you've already posted, or at least add on to the end.

Just copy and paste.... and maybe add who wrote it above the quote?

I'll see if I can work out an easier way for you to do this, CondYoke, but as per MSJ's suggestion:

[ quote author=MSJ ]Just copy and paste....[ /quote ] will appear as a regular quote tag with MSJ' name (written without the spaces at the beginning and end of the brackets):

Quote from: MSJ
Just copy and paste....
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: locke on July 13, 2016, 05:38:09 am
On the singing: dread portion suggests sorcery, no doubt about it.

On the other hand they are at the exact location where sorweel was overwhelmed by the joyous and continuous song that used to fill that location, he even notes how special it was to hear the voices of women and children singing there.

Additionally, the tall has wiped out the consult leadership, and serwe doesn't need to kill potentially powerful allies.

Serwe has been conditioning the mountain with mundane singing for months, there is a huge audience because of the songbird.

Finally, torturer was afraid of her singing because she is dunyain, but he is not afraid of sorcery us singing from her, he gags her and she thinks her plot has gone to shit.

It all seems to add up to mundane singing, but it could just be more lame sorcery rather than clever dunyain tactics.


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Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: locke on July 13, 2016, 05:51:09 am
We'll see about eventually consolidating the ARC subforum threads into the TGO subforum proper but, personally, I think it's a neat part of the monument - an encapsulated time and space :).
An obscenity! As are all monuments, all memorials. What are they but prostheses that pronounce our impotence, our debility? I may live forever, but alas, what I have lived is mortal.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on July 13, 2016, 05:16:29 pm
Lol - my impotence and debility must be ridiculous ;).
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on July 19, 2016, 12:10:40 am
So, I think why we're shown the Boy scraping the chorae across chipmunk is to show what will happen when Sorweel puts that chorae to the collar. I think the "light" the chorae makes is it negating the sorcery of Chipmunk, same as when a sorcerer is hit by a chorae. Sorweel will negate the sorcery in the collar (made by Emidilis also) and Serwa will release her dread portion.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on July 25, 2016, 07:36:53 am
As far as wether or not Serwa's singing will be mundane or not - well here is what she has to say right before they place the bag over her head and lead her to the throne room.

Quote
She did not oblige him— but not out of spite, for she cared nothing for the ghoul. She did not sing simply because the watch she had sung for had come and gone. Her next song would command fire and ruin.

Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 30, 2016, 12:58:13 pm
I think it was pretty evident that Serwa's "song" at the end was supposed to be magic - she was gonna tear the place asunder.

Anyway, I think Ishterenbinth sections were my favourite in this last book. Sorweel is my favourite character introduced in the second trilogy, so watching him become something greater was cool. The Nonmen were wonderful; I felt sad that the Lastborn died, though. It was also interesting to get POV from Serwa, which made her come across as more sympathetic (why she treated Sorweel so cruelly revealed, etc.)

I'm curious about what the finale implied regarding her and Sorweel, though, what with her thinking of him as being "real". I got the feeling that their romance affair is gonna be a thing.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on July 30, 2016, 01:18:04 pm
I think it was pretty evident that Serwa's "song" at the end was supposed to be magic - she was gonna tear the place asunder.

So did I, but have you read the ARC thread link posted at the top of this thread? I'd say it's 50/50 on wether her singing will be mundane or sorcery.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: themerchant on July 30, 2016, 02:20:59 pm
Magic would be what i would wager on.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 30, 2016, 02:52:11 pm
I think it was pretty evident that Serwa's "song" at the end was supposed to be magic - she was gonna tear the place asunder.

So did I, but have you read the ARC thread link posted at the top of this thread? I'd say it's 50/50 on wether her singing will be mundane or sorcery.

Hmm, yeah, it seems debatable; but within the context, it really did feel like she was going to start casting magic. I suppose we'll see.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on July 31, 2016, 02:43:04 pm
Classic Bakker - we'll probably only get the aftermath of that battle :(. Making my imagination do the heavy lifting, will you *shakes fist* .
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: mrganondorf on August 07, 2016, 05:06:52 am
The singers came from the west--were they from Ishterebinth?

I didn't get the vibe that Serwa's song would be mundane--that would be such a let down.

I'm thinking we see her in TUC still wearing that collar as a sign of how fucking badass she is.

Got to say, not really impressed by nonman 'honor.'  Torturing the 3 kids just to find out whether the Niom has been honored seems a bit much.  I know that nonmen have a low opinion of humanity, but I would think that in the matter of allies in war, you would avoid subjecting the children of an emperor to torture.  When Sorweel asked Lastborn if the word of Ishterebinth was any good, Lastborn was all like "oh yeah, besides the dolour, you wouldn't have to worry about being killed by someone trying to remember, but the initial torture thing is just our way of saying hello."
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on August 07, 2016, 11:09:37 pm
The singers came from the west--were they from Ishterebinth?

I'm thinking so too.

I didn't get the vibe that Serwa's song would be mundane--that would be such a let down.

I'm thinking we see her in TUC still wearing that collar as a sign of how fucking badass she is.

+1 :).
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: H on August 09, 2016, 12:19:29 pm
I didn't get the vibe that Serwa's song would be mundane--that would be such a let down.

I'm thinking we see her in TUC still wearing that collar as a sign of how fucking badass she is.

+1 :).

It certainly seems that it's the gag, not the collar that is the wrench in her (Kellhus') plan though, right?  Or was that just how it seemed to me?  So when the gag is gone, she can "sing" her sorcery again.  Consider:

Quote
She did not sing simply because the watch she had sung for had come and gone.
Her next song would command fire and ruin.

Then he gags her.  Next time we see her:

Quote
And it descended as lightning, the realization the she had failed.
Harapior had guessed her gambit.

I think she had sung, so that they would not gag her, especially in the throne room.  They would want to hear her songs.  The collar isn't important at all, I am sure there is a meta-Gnostic, or as I speculated elsewhere a Dunyain, way to defeat the effect of a collar.  They collar her early on and yet, she only thinks about having failed when she is stopped from speaking.

Recall the collar only inflicts pain, it does not actually stop one from preforming sorcery right out.  She is defeated by the gag.  Once it's gone, the plan is back on, fire and ruin.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: mrganondorf on August 09, 2016, 04:05:20 pm
Oh yeah, H, I got the same thing--the gag was the unexpected wrinkle in the Dunyain scheme.  Such a small thing.  Wonder if it foreshadows some tiny thing getting in Kellhus' way right at the end.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on August 09, 2016, 10:09:49 pm
Great catch, H! That all makes sense, and I was never on the mundane singing. I still wonder if the chorae Sorweel has may negate the collar in some way. Once the gag was put on she does think she has failed, never caught that before. Fire and Ruin, indeed.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on August 10, 2016, 04:03:05 pm
I didn't get the vibe that Serwa's song would be mundane--that would be such a let down.

I'm thinking we see her in TUC still wearing that collar as a sign of how fucking badass she is.

+1 :).

It certainly seems that it's the gag, not the collar that is the wrench in her (Kellhus') plan though, right?  Or was that just how it seemed to me?  So when the gag is gone, she can "sing" her sorcery again.  Consider:

Quote
She did not sing simply because the watch she had sung for had come and gone.
Her next song would command fire and ruin.

Then he gags her.  Next time we see her:

Quote
And it descended as lightning, the realization the she had failed.
Harapior had guessed her gambit.

I been on this boat since day one. Metagnosis trumps Gnostic artifact. And she probably isn't just going to phone a Wathi doll as Achamian does above the Agonic Circle.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Dont Skald Me Bro on August 10, 2016, 11:56:54 pm
What was the deal with the little Nonmen statue things that were running around the Boatman's legs on and all that on the descent?
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on August 11, 2016, 12:42:43 am
What was the deal with the little Nonmen statue things that were running around the Boatman's legs on and all that on the descent?

Great question. I was wondering what the significance of those myself. Could it have anything to do with the lifelike faces the past on the way down? IIRC, it happened around the same time.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on August 11, 2016, 02:45:57 pm
There is a passage in that section where Oinaral explains some kind of theory behind why the Nonmen made them.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 14, 2016, 07:22:35 am
I have to put myself in the mundane singing camp.

1) Metagnostic cants are Gnostic cants with two nonutterals.  They are more difficult and demanding to use that conventional cants, but allow new capabilities by having two nonutterals fix the uttered cant.  The collar works by interrupting an attempted cant with crippling pain (and possibly death in this case).  This means attempting a Gnostic cant is suicide and since the Metagnosis is even more demanding to use than the Gnosis, it is even less likely to succeed.

2) Serwa had previously intended to unleash wrack and ruin, but her intended targets are now dead.  Circumstances have changed and the actions needed to master the new circumstances have changed as well.

3) A major theme of the series is that the power of sorcery may be great but the power to command men is greater.  The liege of all sorcerers is more powerful than a sorcerer.  She has been honing her skills to take the minds and loyalties of the Nonmen and she bears a great portion of her father's gifts.  As her Dunyain father did when hanging from the circumflex, she will seize.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on August 14, 2016, 06:28:23 pm
@Cynical Cat, those are all great points I haven't taking into account. Truly, with Nin'ciljaras dead and Orinaus also there what is the sense in killing potential allies? Great post.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 14, 2016, 10:58:28 pm
@Cynical Cat, those are all great points I haven't taking into account. Truly, with Nin'ciljaras dead and Orinaus also there what is the sense in killing potential allies? Great post.

Thank you.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on August 15, 2016, 02:27:11 pm
2) Serwa had previously intended to unleash wrack and ruin, but her intended targets are now dead.  Circumstances have changed and the actions needed to master the new circumstances have changed as well.

I'll quibble just because we don't know the numbers on either side. Someone threw a Chorae at Serwa right at the start, rather than risk her getting free.

My guess is that we'll see the aftermath of her, Oiranus, and whoever else is still semi-lucid bringing the Consult Loyalists to heel.

@Cynical Cat, those are all great points I haven't taking into account. Truly, with Nin'ciljaras dead and Orinaus also there what is the sense in killing potential allies? Great post.

Thank you.


CC is legacy, MSJ ;).
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 15, 2016, 03:00:04 pm
Yeah, not all the supporters of the Vile are dead but clearly circumstances have changed.  The giant with four Chorae in his armour who just killed the king is exhibit A in "things are not like they were an hour ago".  She might fry a couple of dudes, but she's here to crush the Consult and recruit allies.  The crushing Consult supporters bit is well in hand, now is the time to work the ghouls.  Or, more precisely, to continue working the ghouls she has been preparing with her singing.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Somnambulist on August 15, 2016, 03:54:11 pm
At this point, everyone's hand has been forced.  No more fucking around.  The vile and their supporters are known in Ishterebinth.  Those who oppose them are known.  The Tall just killed their king.  I don't see any sudden changes of allegiance, and even if there were, you wouldn't want ex-Consult fanboys suddenly "on your side."  The Tall won't stop with just the king, he'll try to take all the Consult sympathizers out.  Consult-allied will throw down or won't want to stick around to be chopped up next.  Serwa will definitely sing fire and ruin against them.  I just can't see why there would be more mundane singing at this point.  It's time to clean house.

IMO
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: themerchant on August 15, 2016, 04:22:19 pm
Yeah only two folk have died, the hall is still full of non-men fingering their hilts.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on August 15, 2016, 08:36:14 pm
It is great points made by CC, though I've always been firmly in the "fire and ruin" camp. I think Som makes a great point also, that most are already aligned with the Vile and you wouldn't want them on your side. But, how many are for the Consult simply because of Nin'Ciljaras being the Nonman King? What I am saying is, are a bunch of them going to be like, "Yay the Consult stooge is dead, glad I don't have to play along anymore.". Or, are they all Erratic and were truly all-in with the Consult's plan? I think Orinaral says that there is only a dozen or so that's Intact, so I think the odds of flipping the Erratics sides is probably a waste of time. Doesnt Serwe even comment that Ish is held by the Consult?
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Somnambulist on August 15, 2016, 08:48:38 pm
Well, all the nonmen were playing along.  They took shots when they could (i.e., goading Nin'ciljiras), but those who hadn't fallen to the Consult were fewer than those who had.  I think the Anasurimbor knew that Ishterebinth had gone over to the Consult, or at least considered it a real possibility.  Hence contingencies.  Also, just remembered one of Madness' favorite quotes from the Tall - "This is our cannibal fate!"  Meaning (to me anyway), they would consume/destroy each other. Probably not a new thought amongst themselves, but appropriate for what was about to go down, I think.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: H on August 16, 2016, 11:50:15 am
Upon thinking about my break down, I actually have come around that since Serwa feels so defeated by the gag and not at all by the Collar, it is as likely that she is simply singing songs.  In fact, the fact that she laments Harpinor having ruined her plan, perhaps mundane singing is actually more probable.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on August 16, 2016, 04:05:06 pm
Lol - as I do basically every page, I'll just reiterate that I'm with, as MSJ aptly put it, "fire and ruin" :).

Also, just remembered one of Madness' favorite quotes from the Tall - "This is our cannibal fate!"  Meaning (to me anyway), they would consume/destroy each other. Probably not a new thought amongst themselves, but appropriate for what was about to go down, I think.

Yeah, there's just so much packed into that sentence and Oirunas is like laughing and crying. And, you know, the Nonmen tolerate the fucking Gloom so that no Nonman is Damned unnecessarily. But the grudge against the Vile is so great :o!

You almost get the feeling that since Oirunas doesn't know yet about Serwa, the Metagnosis, Sorweel and his god-entanglement, Kellhus, or the Great Ordeal, that he might think that those are the final, violent moments of their whole race.

So good.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: The Sharmat on August 16, 2016, 07:20:54 pm
I suspect they are the final violent moments of their whole race. I suspect full carnage. There's so few remotely lucid ones left the rest will be left to die. I really think we've just seen the final end of the Cunuroi race.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: H on August 16, 2016, 07:53:03 pm
Lol - as I do basically every page, I'll just reiterate that I'm with, as MSJ aptly put it, "fire and ruin" :).

Well, she does say "command fire and ruin."  There is a plausible way to read that as her literally invoking them do her bidding through song.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 17, 2016, 05:45:01 am
It is great points made by CC, though I've always been firmly in the "fire and ruin" camp. I think Som makes a great point also, that most are already aligned with the Vile and you wouldn't want them on your side. But, how many are for the Consult simply because of Nin'Ciljaras being the Nonman King? What I am saying is, are a bunch of them going to be like, "Yay the Consult stooge is dead, glad I don't have to play along anymore.". Or, are they all Erratic and were truly all-in with the Consult's plan? I think Orinaral says that there is only a dozen or so that's Intact, so I think the odds of flipping the Erratics sides is probably a waste of time. Doesnt Serwe even comment that Ish is held by the Consult?


1) She's still wearing the collar, one that is crafted not to merely inflict pain but that also kills.  Sorcery isn't on the table as long as it is on.

2) All the Nonmen are damaged.  They are so damaged in fact that the son of their most hated traitor who was openly wearing the gifts of the Consult was allowed to become their king.  So she's going to have to deal with Nonmen who accepted the rule of a Consult ally as well as Erratics and the violent passions of the Tall. 

She's going to have to wrangle the whole damaged group, a task which requires some kind of superhumanely perceptive and persuasive genius.  Oh wait, that's exactly who Kellhus sent.  With an added bonus, she has the best "make the enemy come over to my side with music" chops this side of Macross. 

I do agree that this is going to be the death of the race and at her hand, but not by her sorcery.  She will lead them against their hated enemy so that they can reclaim a sliver of themselves and extract vengeance against those who murdered their race.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on August 17, 2016, 05:58:50 am
I do agree that this is going to be the death of the race and at her hand, but not by her sorcery.  She will lead them against their hated enemy so that they can reclaim a sliver of themselves and extract vengeance against those who murdered their race.

However it comes about, I truly hope this is what we see. Mundane or Sorcery doesn't really matter to me, as long as she can rally them against the Consult, I'm in.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on August 17, 2016, 02:43:03 pm
...

I don't disagree with your conclusion, just differ on the in-narrative events between now and then.

Aside, I previously mentioned in that first iteration of this thread, I believe, that I think a portion of Ishterebinth's ARC in TUC will involve Serwa, Sorweel, and the Nonmen deciding whether or not to ride to the Ordeal's aid at all - though, the Tall seem like they'll oppose Min-Uroikas, no matter their state.

They're all going to be damn horrified when they meet up with the Ordeal, though.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: sohorat on August 17, 2016, 10:28:51 pm
I was struck by the exact wording that Harapior used:

"Emilidis himself wrought this," he said. "No one who has tested it has survived...You would die were you to shed the least light of Meaning...Certainly! To suppose otherwise would be to blaspheme the Artisan."

It's the "Certainly" that upsets me, since it seems like one of Bakker's "tells." 

And yet we're given no reasons to doubt the Artisan's craft. 

I had thought that using a Metagnostic variant of a Gnostic Cant by substituting an additional inutteral string for the spoken string might defeat the Agonic Collar, but Harapior didn't say "least light of Meaning pass your lips," or "utter the least light of Meaning," etc.

I'm guessing that Canting at all will "shed" Meaning, so the Collar doesn't require the full Lo Pan to activate. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--2Eh4Jdo04

When Harapior is taunting her ("Sing for us, witch!") the text says that "She did not sing simply because the watch she had sung for had come and gone." 

Why the emphasis, there, if not to set up and explain some future collusion? 

I'd prefer it if the "fire and ruin" she "commands" actually comes from the Quya, at least at first.  Harapior is among the Quya, and it seems likely her other listeners were drawn from them. 

Maybe Vippol the Elder?  I'd like to see what it takes to be "the most gifted of the surviving Quya."   
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 18, 2016, 05:17:20 am

They're all going to be damn horrified when they meet up with the Ordeal, though.

Maybe.  I'm not so sure after seeing the Gloom in Istererbinth.   They don't have to leave home to see horrific things happening to people they care more about than humans.  As an alternate possibility, the state of the Great Ordeal might be so horrific that it stirs up memories of the Second Apocalypse of the Cujo-Inchoroi Wars and thus make the Nonmen more sane.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Somnambulist on August 18, 2016, 02:34:39 pm
This thought occurred to me this morning, regarding Kellhus' 'outreach program' to the nonmen.  Why would he need the sorcerous might of the nonmen added to the Ordeal?  I get that they're badass on another level to human sorcerers.  However, he has to know that he would only find so many either 1) sane enough, or 2) willing enough to join the Ordeal.  What could be their motivation to join him?  Like they haven't been warring, in one way or another, for millennia anyway.  Also, Kellhus has gathered the largest sorcerous might in human history.

My point is, I don't think he wants them for their power, but for their memories.  Kellhus needs a guide inside the Ark, someone who's been there before, to show him where he needs to go.  So, if he can get even one nonman to join the cause, what better way to access the deepest places of the Ark than to re-introduce a nonman who'd been there before?  He would remember, much as Cleric did in Cil-Aujas.  He could guide Kellhus, and save enormous amounts of time bumbling around in the dark, as it were.

So.  Who's it gonna be?  Oirunas?  Or does Sorweel retain the memories of Immiricas?  Or will the remnants of Ishterebinth form a cadre of sorts to infiltrate the deepest depths of the Ark?
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Bolivar on August 18, 2016, 03:47:26 pm
^ It's possible but I wouldn't discount the tactical advantage of the Quya. Once the Inchoroi twins and Mangeacca take the field, all those Anagogic schools won't mean shit.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 18, 2016, 05:18:56 pm
^ It's possible but I wouldn't discount the tactical advantage of the Quya. Once the Inchoroi twins and Mangeacca take the field, all those Anagogic schools won't mean shit.

Yes they will.  The Anagogic Schoolmen are weaker than the Consult and its Erratics, but there are literally hundreds of them and the Consult has only so many sorcerers.  Everyone they lose to being ganged up on by Anagogics is just as gone as one cooked by the Gnosis.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on August 19, 2016, 01:17:49 am
I thought we've heard somewhere that the Consult had a few thousand Erratics on their side. I could be making it up, but I thought Bakker said that at one time.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: The Sharmat on August 19, 2016, 04:43:06 am
Do we have any idea of the current strength of the Mangaecca?

As for the Quya...Kellhus is still sort of a Dunyain. They horde every advantage, however small.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 19, 2016, 04:58:23 am
I thought we've heard somewhere that the Consult had a few thousand Erratics on their side. I could be making it up, but I thought Bakker said that at one time.

Actually, I'm rereading the book and have just come to that point.  Oinaral Lastborn tells Sorweel that thousands have gone over to the Consult.  Plucking a few numbers out of thin air that could mean thousands means two thousand and twenty-five percent of them are Quya then that's five hundred Quya mages minus however many got killed at Ishual.  The numbers could obviously be much, much worse.

The Mangaecca numbered around thirty when they were outlawed which is the only time numbers have been given for them.  They don't seem to have much opportunity to recruit and we haven't had any evidence of them directly taking the field.  They may no longer be capable of it, but they might have worked out some atrocious way of managing.  They seem to leave the fighting to their minions. 

There is, of course, also the case of the Wracu if Mog-Pheru is resurrected.  All in all, Kellhous seems to need everyone he can lay his hands on.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: The Sharmat on August 19, 2016, 05:01:34 am
All the old northern schools were tiny by modern standards, I thought? As for recruitment...the Mandate apparently had skirmishes with Consult agents as recently as a few centuries ago before they vanished. They may have been actively recruiting from southron schools. Schoolment in general avoid deployment unless absolutely necessary (as it is with the Horde).
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 19, 2016, 05:09:49 am
That's true.  "Psst-Hey want the Gnosis, Immortality, and safety from damnation?" might tempt more than a few Schoolmen to turning coat.  We know so little about the skirmishing the Consult agents that its hard to say about them.  They could have been the Consult working mischief with Synthese and Cants of Compulsion, buying the help of ignorant patsies, or something more.  We don't know.  We've never seen, in any of the flashbacks, any Consult mages other than Erratics and the Inchoroi, but that isn't definitive.  Obviously it's hard to fight if your soul is falling between the bodies of crippled old men, but the Consult is inventive in its atrocities.  The Mangaecca may have managed a way to take the field when they have to.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: The Sharmat on August 19, 2016, 05:11:56 am
Do we know any but Shaeonanra attempted this? He's the only one I know of that's explicitly stated as immortal and got the "Cheater-of-Death" title. Further...do we know that's the state he's in, these days? Could it be that rediscovery of fundamentals of the Tekne allowed his soul to be retrieved and given a proper, immortal body?
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 19, 2016, 05:30:54 am
That's why the last two sentences of my last post are so open ended.  We know as a school the Mangaecca were obsessed with cheating death and avoiding damnation.  The scene with Shaeonanra is the only time we've seen on the Mangaecca post exile.  Of course Shaeonanra is going to get the cool titles and curse names, he's their leader, but we don't know how representative his fate is of the rest of the Mangaecca or if he transitioned to something else.  The Consults increased mastery of  the Tekne may allow other options.  I'm sure Scott is going to show us something truly appalling (and perhaps combat capable) before the end.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Monkhound on August 21, 2016, 10:15:40 am
Quote from: Locke
Quote
Rage--Goddess! Sing of your flight,
From our fathers and our sons.
Away, Goddess! Secret your divinity!
From the conceit that makes kings of fools
From the scrutiny that makes corpses of souls.
Mouths open, arms thrown wide, we beseech thee:
Sing us the end of your song.

They did hoist Anarlû’s head high,
And poured down its blood as fire.
And the ground gave forth many sons,
Ninety nine who were as Gods,
And so bid their fathers
Be as sons…

What would be the link between the Cunuroi song and Koringhus's 99 and hundredth stones, as well as the head on a pole in the Kellhus chapters? I'd almost suspect we've already had hints about it in TPON.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on August 22, 2016, 07:31:49 pm
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Monkhound :).

EDIT:

That's why the last two sentences of my last post are so open ended.  We know as a school the Mangaecca were obsessed with cheating death and avoiding damnation.  The scene with Shaeonanra is the only time we've seen on the Mangaecca post exile.  Of course Shaeonanra is going to get the cool titles and curse names, he's their leader, but we don't know how representative his fate is of the rest of the Mangaecca or if he transitioned to something else.  The Consults increased mastery of  the Tekne may allow other options.  I'm sure Scott is going to show us something truly appalling (and perhaps combat capable) before the end.

There is a thread regarding about Why haven't more Few gone to the Consult? (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=840.0) that maybe we should resurrect in the TGO subforum. Also, I'm with you Battle-Synthese (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=829.0), CC :)!
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: The Sharmat on August 22, 2016, 08:03:11 pm
That's a great catch from the new guy but no idea what it means.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on September 01, 2016, 12:14:35 am
Throwing out some random responses I missed previously:

Maybe.  I'm not so sure after seeing the Gloom in Istererbinth.   They don't have to leave home to see horrific things happening to people they care more about than humans.  As an alternate possibility, the state of the Great Ordeal might be so horrific that it stirs up memories of the Second Apocalypse of the Cujo-Inchoroi Wars and thus make the Nonmen more sane.

True. Though, I'm thinking it might perturb the Nonmen to see Men eating their Sranc likenesses.

^ It's possible but I wouldn't discount the tactical advantage of the Quya. Once the Inchoroi twins and Mangeacca take the field, all those Anagogic schools won't mean shit.

Do we have any idea of the current strength of the Mangaecca?

As for the Quya...Kellhus is still sort of a Dunyain. They horde every advantage, however small.

What TS said in bold.

Also, as was mentioned, we don't even know the current state of the Mangaecca, let alone their strength.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: redjako on September 05, 2016, 03:12:20 am
I thought we've heard somewhere that the Consult had a few thousand Erratics on their side. I could be making it up, but I thought Bakker said that at one time.

Oinaral says "thousands" to Sorweel as well, that have gone over to the Consult.

I figure Kellhus' Non Men gamble is to make sure they aren't taken from behind at Dagliash. Covering his flank and eliminating variables by confirming, or denying the Non Men as allies or enemies.

Plus, as mentioned above, we don't know how powerful even a handful of the Non Men mages would be. Cleric was an absolute monster.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 05, 2016, 03:50:46 am
The Quya retain the meaning of their words and thus the power of their sorcery even as they lose memories of their events and thus identity.  They're going to be really dangerous, but vulnerable to being out thought (as the Dunyain did) due to their fractured minds. 
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: gtownwr on September 12, 2016, 09:01:39 pm
What was the deal with the little Nonmen statue things that were running around the Boatman's legs on and all that on the descent?

I read this as a dream or vision that Sorweel had and not reality.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on September 12, 2016, 09:43:52 pm
What was the deal with the little Nonmen statue things that were running around the Boatman's legs on and all that on the descent?

I read this as a dream or vision that Sorweel had and not reality.

Didn't seem a vision to me, it seemed like Orinaral noticed them too.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Cnair vs Karsa vs Drogo on September 13, 2016, 03:01:20 am
I thought the plan was for Serwa to kill everyone because Kellhus knows or has a strong suspicion that they've turned consult. Also of note, regarding numbers, is that The Survivor mentions the "singers" came from the west, presumably Ishterebinth, and not the east, like the shriekers. He said there were hundreds of them walking through the air.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Monkhound on September 13, 2016, 03:31:51 pm
What was the deal with the little Nonmen statue things that were running around the Boatman's legs on and all that on the descent?

I read this as a dream or vision that Sorweel had and not reality.

Didn't seem a vision to me, it seemed like Orinaral noticed them too.
I interpreted it as the weird perspective of Nonman statues (as described outside of Ishterebinth, and in Cil-Aujas) dancing in the light of a torch or Cant.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: mrganondorf on September 20, 2016, 04:22:04 am
At this point, everyone's hand has been forced.  No more fucking around.  The vile and their supporters are known in Ishterebinth.  Those who oppose them are known.  The Tall just killed their king.  I don't see any sudden changes of allegiance, and even if there were, you wouldn't want ex-Consult fanboys suddenly "on your side."  The Tall won't stop with just the king, he'll try to take all the Consult sympathizers out.  Consult-allied will throw down or won't want to stick around to be chopped up next.  Serwa will definitely sing fire and ruin against them.  I just can't see why there would be more mundane singing at this point.  It's time to clean house.

IMO

I'm with you--I can't see mundane singing adding anything to the narrative.  CC, you make great points, but at some level it's unsurprising that a story has "no one's ever overcome X" and then someone does.  I bet we're def going to see crazy rule-breaking shit in TUC (Kellhus will handle a chorae, Kellhus will melt a hole in the ark, Akka will bathe, Kellhus will make a mistake, a nonman will remember, or something else).
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: mrganondorf on September 20, 2016, 12:31:48 pm
Just a few things from the Boatman's song:

"Let us aim our children as spears!" - a pretty Dunyain thing for nonmen to do.  Maybe the nonmen are nothing more than an earlier dunyain experiment carried out on a much longer timeline?

"And the ground gave forth many sons, Ninety-nine who were as Gods..." - are the gods nothing more than ascendent nonmen/nonwomen?  The nonmen on Earwa might be nothing more than the weaker, rebellious sect; not so much avoiding damnation as avoiding the tyranny of submitting to stronger brethren who would punish the rebels for refusing to bow.

That might explain why Earwa is the 'promised world' for the Inchoroi.  Let's say in time long long ago, nonpersons ascended to a higher plane of reality/power and thus exercised dominion over the entire physical realm and all of the planets.  These 'gods' established hells where they would eat but not for any particular sins--just the stronger consuming the weaker.  The inchoroi are displeased with the arrangement and so send out a bunch of Arks in search of the one place that made hell possible. 

Anybody have thoughts on the significance of the Boatman singing a 'new' song right where he does on page 327?
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on September 20, 2016, 02:39:54 pm
At this point, everyone's hand has been forced.  No more fucking around.  The vile and their supporters are known in Ishterebinth.  Those who oppose them are known.  The Tall just killed their king.  I don't see any sudden changes of allegiance, and even if there were, you wouldn't want ex-Consult fanboys suddenly "on your side."  The Tall won't stop with just the king, he'll try to take all the Consult sympathizers out.  Consult-allied will throw down or won't want to stick around to be chopped up next.  Serwa will definitely sing fire and ruin against them.  I just can't see why there would be more mundane singing at this point.  It's time to clean house.

IMO

I'm with you--I can't see mundane singing adding anything to the narrative.  CC, you make great points, but at some level it's unsurprising that a story has "no one's ever overcome X" and then someone does.  I bet we're def going to see crazy rule-breaking shit in TUC (Kellhus will handle a chorae, Kellhus will melt a hole in the ark, Akka will bathe, Kellhus will make a mistake, a nonman will remember, or something else).

I'm torn on this, I've seen a lot of compelling evidence that it will be mundane and a lot that she's gonna sing ruin. Why can't it be both. What if she starts out mundanely to bring the Nonmen to her side, then a few of them just don't buy it. So, she does something to bypass the collar and kill the ones who still at for the Vile? Why can't it be both?
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Monkhound on September 20, 2016, 09:11:05 pm
Just a few things from the Boatman's song:

"Let us aim our children as spears!" - a pretty Dunyain thing for nonmen to do.  Maybe the nonmen are nothing more than an earlier dunyain experiment carried out on a much longer timeline?

"And the ground gave forth many sons, Ninety-nine who were as Gods..." - are the gods nothing more than ascendent nonmen/nonwomen?  The nonmen on Earwa might be nothing more than the weaker, rebellious sect; not so much avoiding damnation as avoiding the tyranny of submitting to stronger brethren who would punish the rebels for refusing to bow.

That might explain why Earwa is the 'promised world' for the Inchoroi.  Let's say in time long long ago, nonpersons ascended to a higher plane of reality/power and thus exercised dominion over the entire physical realm and all of the planets.  These 'gods' established hells where they would eat but not for any particular sins--just the stronger consuming the weaker.  The inchoroi are displeased with the arrangement and so send out a bunch of Arks in search of the one place that made hell possible. 

Anybody have thoughts on the significance of the Boatman singing a 'new' song right where he does on page 327?

The impact of the number 99 intrigues me. That number, as well as 100 is found in more than one context.
Also the whole song about the 99 who lived like gods, fathers be as your sons, etc. had me thinking. Most of the words used to phrase the song can be read in more than one way.

Quote
Rage--Goddess! Sing of your flight,
From our fathers and our sons.
Away, Goddess! Secret your divinity!
From the conceit that makes kings of fools
From the scrutiny that makes corpses of souls.
Mouths open, arms thrown wide, we beseech thee:
Sing us the end of your song.

They did hoist Anarlû’s head high,
And poured down its blood as fire.
And the ground gave forth many sons,
Ninety nine who were as Gods,
And so bid their fathers
Be as sons…

For example:
"Rage--Goddess" can be read as: "Godess of rage" and/or "Godess, be angry"
"Sing of your flight" as "let us chase you while you run away" or "tell us about your journey"
"Goddess, secret your divinity" can both be read as "give us your power" and "die already"

I'm as native a speaker as it gets for a non-native speaker, but I'm sure there's more dimensions I'm not seeing.

Also, wasn't the Ark compared to a womb (= as female)?

There's also the matter of the 99 stones combined with the 100th stone of Korringhus. Still wondering how this ties into it all.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Truth Shines on September 29, 2016, 03:52:01 am
On the other hand they are at the exact location where sorweel was overwhelmed by the joyous and continuous song that used to fill that location, he even notes how special it was to hear the voices of women and children singing there.

This.

It must be admitted that meta-gnostic may be able to defeat the collar, so sorcery is possible.  And that "fire and ruin" bit is difficult to interpret around.  Yet I think for her to just massacre all the ghouls there would be far less dramatic than for her to conquer them with her singing voice, which it's implied that she can do -- using it to remind them of their glory days, to inspire them, to make them feel once again the anguish of lost beauty.  After all, isn't that what the Erratics crave?  To feel?

Also, when Kellhus says to show his "dread portion," my first reaction was also to interpret it as meta-gnostic sorcery.  But Kellhus' other, arguably even greater, sorcery, is to conquer the hearts of others.  It seems quite possible that this is what he means.

Besides, it seems to me the sorcery interpretation has one further difficulty: it has long been clear the Ishterebinth has been seized by a pro-Consult faction.  If Serwa had wanted to destroy all of them for it and had always been able to do so (the collar was actually not effective), then why did she wait so long?
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on October 05, 2016, 05:46:57 pm
"why did she wait so long" is a great question.

'  Metagnosis is cool and all, but allegedly humans can do it.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: H on October 05, 2016, 05:50:51 pm
"why did she wait so long" is a great question.

'  Metagnosis is cool and all, but allegedly humans can do it.

Indeed, I think the waiting is a strike against it being sorcery and for it being mundane singing.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Hiro on October 05, 2016, 09:24:45 pm
"why did she wait so long" is a great question.

'  Metagnosis is cool and all, but allegedly humans can do it.

Indeed, I think the waiting is a strike against it being sorcery and for it being mundane singing.

Depends. Which song has more lyrics to remember...?  ;)
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on October 05, 2016, 09:45:58 pm
There you go. Maybe it was both. A cant woven into the mundane song.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: H on October 06, 2016, 12:49:20 pm
There you go. Maybe it was both. A cant woven into the mundane song.

Wave function sorcery.  A Schrödinger's Cant.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on October 07, 2016, 05:20:47 pm
There you go. Maybe it was both. A cant woven into the mundane song.

Wave function sorcery.  A Schrödinger's Cant.
Oh, I like that. That's good. :D
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: geoffrobro on October 10, 2016, 02:48:34 pm
Found this in the prologue of TJE
Quote
When they grimaced, their blank and beautiful faces were clenched like crumpled silk, becoming the expressions of ancient and inbred men.
It's been there in front of us the whole time, the Nonmen are inbred humans. Who judging on what I remember of the song the oldest nonman was singing, went under ground and aimed their children as Spears.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on October 10, 2016, 04:20:22 pm
That line refers to sranc, which are in their turn reflection of Nonmen when calm. Upon excitement/rage/anger they cease to resemble the Nonmen. IMO, I don't think its a valid step to take a description of an enraged sranc and attempt to divine anything about the Nonmen.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: geoffrobro on October 10, 2016, 08:10:09 pm
I disagree. In one of the Ishterebith chapters Lastborn is crying, Sorweel thinks to himself about how when displaying emotions a Nonman face twists and looks like a sranc. And in a kinda discovery moment he understands that a sranc's grimace is yet another one of the 'vile's' stabs at Nonmen. Imagine fighting versions of your own distorted facial emotions.
The sranc were crafted to fuck with Nonmen in everyway: physical and emotionally.

Edit: LOL I'm wrong. I really need to read before posting my half-baked theories. Sorweel recalls Nin' ciljiras.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on October 11, 2016, 01:27:18 pm
If you're looking at extreme, and rare, Nonman emotions in the recollection of Sorweel, then sure maybe they have some resemblance to sranc. But the difference is the most extreme nonman expression is close to the normal sranc emotions.

What you're doing is like using Cnaiur's reactions to stuff your measure for how a normal human reacts. You shouldn't use fringe conditions to make assumptions on the whole.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on October 11, 2016, 10:15:08 pm
If you're looking at extreme, and rare, Nonman emotions in the recollection of Sorweel, then sure maybe they have some resemblance to sranc. But the difference is the most extreme nonman expression is close to the normal sranc emotions.

What you're doing is like using Cnaiur's reactions to stuff your measure for how a normal human reacts. You shouldn't use fringe conditions to make assumptions on the whole.

Quote
A sour smirk was the most Proyas could afford. “There’s more to Cnaiür urs Skiötha than you know, Akka. Mark me. In some ways, he’s as extraordinary as Kellhus.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on October 12, 2016, 05:23:20 pm
Exactly. He's human, yeah, but he doesn't react how humans react.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on October 12, 2016, 08:59:08 pm
Exactly. He's human, yeah, but he doesn't react how humans react.

So what do think Wilshire, I've always felt Cnaüir was one of the more reliable of the POV's we get. And it's very well written by Bakker. How he is mad, yet still understands Kellhus better than any other human. I think Cnaüir might be my favorite character of all time, any book I've read. You expect him to be this dumb brute and he is so much more than that. Man, I have a feeling that whatever role he plays in TUC, will be one nobody will expect.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on October 13, 2016, 04:40:41 pm
Cnaiur was a great character, certainly. And, up until Serwe-skinspy, I think he was one of the least deceitful POVs in the entire series. After that, he appears to go off the reservation - true madness. His brief scene in TGO does nothing to dispel that for me.

Side note, I'd like to see him battle a Holca. Mr.Twin-Heart guy and his berserk rage from KOMH reminds me of Cnaiur, and I think a fight between the two would be quite epic.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Monkhound on March 03, 2017, 09:51:31 pm
While skimming through the first chapters in search of another passage, I got through the encounter between Kellhus and the unnamed Nonman, and in particular these two quotes below from the Nonman struck me:
Quote from: TPoN prelude
“Extraordinary,” the stranger said, then looked to him. Kellhus could see the glitter of his eyes beneath the brow of his helm. “You must be a name.”
The choice of words uttered is peculiar.
Quote from: TPoN prelude
“But I make excuses like a Man. Loss is written into the very earth. We are only its most dramatic reminder.”
The sad truth behind the words is eerie, with what we have read about both the depths of Cil-Aujas and the Holy Deep.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Simas Polchias on March 03, 2017, 10:41:11 pm
Quote from: TPoN prelude
“Extraordinary,” the stranger said, then looked to him. Kellhus could see the glitter of his eyes beneath the brow of his helm. “You must be a name.”
The choice of words uttered is peculiar.

Isn't it a synonym for something like "of a noble descent" or "not a mere pleb"?

In the same meeting nonman correctly identifies Kellhus as an Anasurimbor. As far as I understand -- thanks to the Kellhus "grandchild-grandfather similarity" and because nonman actually met, fought and killed many of said grand-grand-...-grandfathers. If he's not exaggerating, there are actual faces of ancient Anasurimbors sewn to his cloack among other tropheys.

Later there is concept of "great names" which is about major political figures of the Three Seas.

The termin could even be of nonmen invention and passed to other languages through Tutelage. It has a certain flavour, nonmen were kinda lavish with naming. F.e., their No-God is no less than Angel of Endless Hunger.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Monkhound on March 04, 2017, 09:01:31 am
Apologies, the italics weren't mine, they're in the text.
The choice for the verb "to be a name" rather than the usual "to have a name" is the choice of words I find peculiar. It suggests power/ strength/ something worth remembering, rather than just an identifier.
Also, Kellhus himself tells the Nonman his name. The Nonman only corroborates the fact by comparing his face with one of the trophies.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Simas Polchias on March 04, 2017, 10:55:32 pm
The choice for the verb "to be a name" rather than the usual "to have a name" is the choice of words I find peculiar. It suggests power/ strength/ something worth remembering, rather than just an identifier.
It corresponds nicely with Kellhus words from TGO, btw.
(click to show/hide)

Also, Kellhus himself tells the Nonman his name. The Nonman only corroborates the fact by comparing his face with one of the trophies.
Aw, my bad. And also a occasion to reread trilogies with the knowledge of TGO.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Francis Buck on March 07, 2017, 06:19:48 pm
For what it's worth, "secret names" (which are also sometimes a "true" name, in a metaphysical sense) are pretty common in fantasy and myth, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was worked into Earwa's worldbuilding. That being said I'm not sure how much legit evidence there actually is for it at the moment, and I wouldn't necessarily link that Nonman line with the concept.

At the same time it totally could be. Particularly since such a thing would more than likely apply to Kellhus anyway. For example, in a lot of myths, there would be a notion of an extremely powerful deity who could only be killed/defeated by knowing their "secret name". And then, of course, there are a million and one riffs on that concept itself, so who knows.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on March 07, 2017, 06:24:38 pm
Pretty sure something about finding out a Ciphrang's name lets you summon it.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Francis Buck on March 07, 2017, 07:51:54 pm
Pretty sure something about finding out a Ciphrang's name lets you summon it.

Oh, good call! That also dovetails interestingly (in some way I cannot yet fathom) with the Nonmen's concerns that Kellhus might be a "substitution" or some agency of the Outside.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: mrganondorf on March 08, 2017, 03:18:33 am
Pretty sure something about finding out a Ciphrang's name lets you summon it.

hmmm....
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Monkhound on June 26, 2017, 03:59:53 pm
Another interesting development in the Ishterebinth section:

In chapter 7, we have a PoV of Serwa in which we are explained that she sees everything as unreal/ false, and that only Father (Kellhus) is and has ever been real.

Chapter 12 ends with Serwa seeing Sorweel as real (it's even there in italics) after he intercepts the Chorae aimed at her in mid-air.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on June 28, 2017, 03:28:01 am
What do you think that implies?
What changed in sorweel and what made him similar to Kellhus in her eyes?

At first I was thinking it might be something metaphysical, but actually this might just be a case of mundane affection seen through the eyes of someone unable or unwilling to conconciously aknowledge it
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Monkhound on June 28, 2017, 06:18:35 am
We get explained that the Amiolas "weds" the soul of the one wearing it to the soul of a headstrong and self-punishing Ishroi. I suppose Sorweel's soul got "completed" in a way, making him real and thus unalterable.

Edit: ... because she can no longer see the tears in the fabric of reality that make him false.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on June 28, 2017, 09:16:01 pm
Ah, the amiolas. Interesting.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Monkhound on June 29, 2017, 06:53:38 am
Alternatively: When Oirunas breaks the Amiolas, Sorweel experiences death, in a way similar (yet different) to what Kellhus experienced in Caraskand.

I also only now see a weird parallel between Kellhus losing Serwë in Caraskand and going mad, and the Nonmen losing their wives/ daughters and going mad. Not sure what to make of that.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: Monkhound on June 30, 2017, 05:57:07 pm
We get explained that the Amiolas "weds" the soul of the one wearing it to the soul of a headstrong and self-punishing Ishroi. I suppose Sorweel's soul got "completed" in a way, making him real and thus unalterable.

Edit: ... because she can no longer see the tears in the fabric of reality that make him false.

Also: On Page 296, Sorweel is referred to as "the in-between soul that had once been Sorweel". Two pages earlier, Immiriccas's love and wrath "made him whole ".

Edit: and a little later we get the description of Sorweel sharing his memories with Immiriccas's soul, where the last but if the boy Sorweel dies in the Weeping Mountain.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: mrganondorf on January 09, 2021, 06:35:56 pm
I wonder if the nonmen near the bottom of the well achieved the objective of finding the darkness in between the gods.  The gods come across as eaters of souls (whether heaven or hell) and the nonmen whose souls were reduced to a personality-less fog (not the Tall at the very bottom but the nonmen just before that, the pig-catchers) might just be repugnant enough to avoid consumption.
Title: Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
Post by: H on January 12, 2021, 02:22:53 pm
I wonder if the nonmen near the bottom of the well achieved the objective of finding the darkness in between the gods.  The gods come across as eaters of souls (whether heaven or hell) and the nonmen whose souls were reduced to a personality-less fog (not the Tall at the very bottom but the nonmen just before that, the pig-catchers) might just be repugnant enough to avoid consumption.

That is an interesting idea, but I think I would maybe run it the other way: the chthonic isolation cuts the Subject off from being part of the Ethical Community (and the Ethical World) and also subverts Identity.  How so?  Well, if we take a basic sort of Hegelian formation, that Identity is Identity not just in relation to The Other, but through The Other as well, what happens where there simply is no Other?

(Also, glad to read you are doing alright in the current moment...)