The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: CondYoke on August 01, 2017, 01:47:36 pm

Title: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: CondYoke on August 01, 2017, 01:47:36 pm
So, what' the consensus- are there two weapons of light, or one, and is it (are they) lost or not?
"A line of luminous red flickered from the thigh of the Upright Horn to the termite confusion below. “That is the sign!” his false mother cried—and in Sheyic, no less. The assembled Chieftains scowled for incomprehension. “The Holy Spear of Sil!”

And...
"A light miraculously unpolluted by sorcery’s Mark … a killing light. Tekne. “What is it?” Mimara cried. “The Heron Spear?” Could it be? No. The Heron Spear had frequented too many Dreams for him to mistake it.
 “The colour is wrong …” A different Inchoroi weapon of light? A different Spear?"

Or are the dreams misleading?

[EDIT Madness: Title.]
Title: Re: Heron Spear?
Post by: Somnambulist on August 01, 2017, 01:49:52 pm
Or it is the Heron Spear, but the Dunsult tweaked it/got it working again.  The result of their fiddling made the beam a different color.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Madness on August 01, 2017, 01:54:45 pm
Doesn't the Glossary - or at least some source found by Wert for his History of... - specifically refer to it as the Sun Lance?
Title: Re: Heron Spear?
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 01, 2017, 01:57:14 pm
We have this quote from the Encyclopaedic Glossary.

Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult"
Black Iron Seat—The throne of the Nonman King of Ishterebinth, hewn from the spot where, during the Siege of Ishterebinth (2147-9), Aurang struck the ensorcelled Mirinotic Gates with the Sun Lance (sister of the Heron Spear) before it exploded. The impact crater forms the seat of the throne, with the slag thrown by the strike constituting the back and sides, and the remaining thickness of the Gate making the base.
Underscoring's mine.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: jurble on August 01, 2017, 02:43:37 pm
The actual Heron Spear likely rests in Horiotha's barrow, I think.  Though, both Kellhus and the Mutilated likely made that guess and one or the other probably ransacked the barrows years ago at this point.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Woden on August 01, 2017, 02:50:37 pm
The actual Heron Spear likely rests in Horiotha's barrow, I think.  Though, both Kellhus and the Mutilated likely made that guess and one or the other probably ransacked the barrows years ago at this point.

Or even the (non dûnyain) Consult.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: profgrape on August 01, 2017, 02:58:21 pm
I don't think it was the Heron Spear; why else call out the difference in color?

Hard to say whether it was the Sun Lance or not.  That it was jury-rigged to plug into a big battery makes it sound like it was a piece of dormant Tekne that the Mutilated figured out how to operate.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: CondYoke on August 01, 2017, 03:15:23 pm
I missed that entry.  It just seems like another seed he's scattered to be picked up later in the No-God.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Likaro on August 01, 2017, 04:46:56 pm
It's the Sun Lance.

What happened to the Heron spear is a mystery. However, if the No-God 2.0 doesn't have chorae on the carapace I don't think the "good" guys would need it anymore to destroy it, no?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Madness on August 01, 2017, 05:17:54 pm
It's the Sun Lance.

What happened to the Heron spear is a mystery. However, if the No-God 2.0 doesn't have chorae on the carapace I don't think the "good" guys would need it anymore to destroy it, no?

You know, I actually took the no Chorae in the modified Carapace to be an upgrade by the Mutilated. It's been long assumed by a number of readers that the reason for the Chorae aren't for sorcerous protection but rather to perform some other function (soul-containment, whathaveyou, etc). It might follow that that's why Shauriatas was such important part of the Consult - besides breaking the Barricades - because their cabal didn't have the strictly Tekne know-how to start up the No-God. That Shauriatas jury rigged it to work with his sorcerous knowledge the first time.

By my reading, I interpreted the lack of Chorae to mean that the No-God functions better this time around.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Somnambulist on August 01, 2017, 05:18:45 pm
Is it the Sun Lance, though?

Quote
Aurang struck the ensorcelled Mirinotic Gates with the Sun Lance (sister of the Heron Spear) before it exploded.

My bold.  Before what exploded?  The Gate or the Sun Lance?  Could be read either way, but seems to imply the Sun Lance exploded.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: H on August 01, 2017, 05:29:34 pm
Is it the Sun Lance, though?

Quote
Aurang struck the ensorcelled Mirinotic Gates with the Sun Lance (sister of the Heron Spear) before it exploded.

My bold.  Before what exploded?  The Gate or the Sun Lance?  Could be read either way, but seems to imply the Sun Lance exploded.

But we know it still works...I think the original battery probably exploded, not the Lance itself.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: jurble on August 01, 2017, 05:30:07 pm
No.. it was the Gate that exploded... the Black Iron Seat is built from the slag of the Gate.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 01, 2017, 05:30:28 pm
Is it the Sun Lance, though?

Quote
Aurang struck the ensorcelled Mirinotic Gates with the Sun Lance (sister of the Heron Spear) before it exploded.

My bold.  Before what exploded?  The Gate or the Sun Lance?  Could be read either way, but seems to imply the Sun Lance exploded.
The Lance might have been repaired by the Dunsult. This also explains why it wasn't used in the Apocalypse.

That said, whatever the quote from the Glossary may suggest, it doesn't state anything pertaining to the question of this thread.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Purrball on August 01, 2017, 05:48:47 pm
idk if its been mentioned already, but the way the sun lance and heron spear are described make them seem like laser rifles or something similar.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: littlegrice on August 01, 2017, 09:02:24 pm
It's the Sun Lance.

What happened to the Heron spear is a mystery. However, if the No-God 2.0 doesn't have chorae on the carapace I don't think the "good" guys would need it anymore to destroy it, no?

You know, I actually took the no Chorae in the modified Carapace to be an upgrade by the Mutilated. It's been long assumed by a number of readers that the reason for the Chorae aren't for sorcerous protection but rather to perform some other function (soul-containment, whathaveyou, etc). It might follow that that's why Shauriatas was such important part of the Consult - besides breaking the Barricades - because their cabal didn't have the strictly Tekne know-how to start up the No-God. That Shauriatas jury rigged it to work with his sorcerous knowledge the first time.

By my reading, I interpreted the lack of Chorae to mean that the No-God functions better this time around.

Well that would be shitty, huh?  Everybody(the ones who survived, anyway) thinking maybe they have a weakness to exploit, and at the first major battle they discover to to instead be a new-found strength.  Que disaster, and the perishing of the second major force at the hands of the No-God.  Up next, the plains of Mengedda, since Bakker is such a fan of history repeating?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Madness on August 01, 2017, 10:27:38 pm
Well that would be shitty, huh?  Everybody(the ones who survived, anyway) thinking maybe they have a weakness to exploit, and at the first major battle they discover to to instead be a new-found strength.  Que disaster, and the perishing of the second major force at the hands of the No-God.  Up next, the plains of Mengedda, since Bakker is such a fan of history repeating?

Profgrape and I have discussed at length geographical choke points in Earwa where any humanity left might be able to mount a resistance...

Short list so far ;).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 02, 2017, 01:49:09 am
I thought the removal of the Chorae was to avoid turning a certain vital component to salt.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Cnair vs Karsa vs Drogo on August 02, 2017, 02:13:52 am
I thought the removal of the Chorae was to avoid turning a certain vital component to salt.

kel hasnt used magic yet so chorae shouldnt effect him.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Madness on August 02, 2017, 02:20:32 am
I thought the removal of the Chorae was to avoid turning a certain vital component to salt.

kel hasnt used magic yet so chorae shouldnt effect him.

Further off topic but I haven't understood why people think the personality inhabiting the No-God should make a difference? The No-God 1.0 certainly didn't seem to retain Nau-Cayuti's tactical acumen.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 02, 2017, 11:16:22 am
I thought the removal of the Chorae was to avoid turning a certain vital component to salt.

kel hasnt used magic yet so chorae shouldnt effect him.

It wasn't prepared for him.  The Consult prepared it for Kelhus, who is very much Marked.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: The Sharmat on August 02, 2017, 12:46:30 pm
I thought the removal of the Chorae was to avoid turning a certain vital component to salt.

kel hasnt used magic yet so chorae shouldnt effect him.

Further off topic but I haven't understood why people think the personality inhabiting the No-God should make a difference? The No-God 1.0 certainly didn't seem to retain Nau-Cayuti's tactical acumen.
Do we know that? It's described as a leader, and Nau-Cayuti was brutally tortured then shown the Inverse-Fire. Not to mention whatever horror becoming a component of the No-God must involve. They're bound to be different afterwards.

Of course "You can't prove it isn't still Nau-Cayuti in there" is a pretty terrible argument, admittedly.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Madness on August 02, 2017, 01:17:13 pm
Of course "You can't prove it isn't still Nau-Cayuti in there" is a pretty terrible argument, admittedly.

You've always been a salve to my opinion of peoples generally :).

Glad you're back.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: The Sharmat on August 02, 2017, 01:28:35 pm
That's actually one of the nicest things anyone has ever said to me. Now I feel bad about rooting for the Consult.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Madness on August 02, 2017, 02:46:35 pm
That's actually one of the nicest things anyone has ever said to me. Now I feel bad about rooting for the Consult.

You keep doing you 8).

And don't feel bad, I'm just some asshole like Achamian who knows his sins and impending damnation and would still be an idiot and fight the Consult for the World anyways ;).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Azuredarkness on August 04, 2017, 08:45:17 am
Is it the Sun Lance, though?

Quote
Aurang struck the ensorcelled Mirinotic Gates with the Sun Lance (sister of the Heron Spear) before it exploded.

My bold.  Before what exploded?  The Gate or the Sun Lance?  Could be read either way, but seems to imply the Sun Lance exploded.

Technically, if it were the Gates (note the plural) it would have been "before they exploded". So the only grammatically correct candidate is the Sun Lance.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Moosehunter on August 04, 2017, 09:38:03 am
Well that would be shitty, huh?  Everybody(the ones who survived, anyway) thinking maybe they have a weakness to exploit, and at the first major battle they discover to to instead be a new-found strength.  Que disaster, and the perishing of the second major force at the hands of the No-God.  Up next, the plains of Mengedda, since Bakker is such a fan of history repeating?

Profgrape and I have discussed at length geographical choke points in Earwa where any humanity left might be able to mount a resistance...

Short list so far ;).

Zeum.

The Osthwai Mountains although the eastern end presents problems.

Back through the Gates to Eanna or through Jekk.

Nilnamesh.

Okay i'm done. Zeum seems the only safe option but realistically mountains don't seem to present problems for Sranc as the Yimaleti was described as their mother/cradle or something.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 04, 2017, 10:45:14 am


Zeum.

The Osthwai Mountains although the eastern end presents problems.

Back through the Gates to Eanna or through Jekk.

Nilnamesh.

Okay i'm done. Zeum seems the only safe option but realistically mountains don't seem to present problems for Sranc as the Yimaleti was described as their mother/cradle or something.

The Sranc can live in mountains just fine, that doesn't mean that they're good terrain for them to fight on.  The Bronzemen of Far Antiquity enjoyed considerable success against the Sranc of the Yimaleti until they were disbanded.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Madness on August 04, 2017, 01:39:32 pm


Zeum.

The Osthwai Mountains although the eastern end presents problems.

Back through the Gates to Eanna or through Jekk.

Nilnamesh.

Okay i'm done. Zeum seems the only safe option but realistically mountains don't seem to present problems for Sranc as the Yimaleti was described as their mother/cradle or something.

The Sranc can live in mountains just fine, that doesn't mean that they're good terrain for them to fight on.  The Bronzemen of Far Antiquity enjoyed considerable success against the Sranc of the Yimaleti until they were disbanded.

The Leash and the Knife, plus the fallout at Dagliash, aren't passable without some losses - though damn if the Sranc in the Celmomas Dream in TGO and No-God 2.0 taking out the Ordeal with Sranc don't remind me of the amazing feats of ants.

I've heard that the Glossary mentions Cnaiur and the Scylvendi fucking up Atrithau's forces. The Lonely City seems certain to finally fall to the Great Ruiner...

Hmm...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: littlegrice on August 05, 2017, 02:01:27 am
Atrithau's fall would probably end up mimicking the fall of Sauglish.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: H on August 07, 2017, 11:39:58 am
The Leash and the Knife, plus the fallout at Dagliash, aren't passable without some losses - though damn if the Sranc in the Celmomas Dream in TGO and No-God 2.0 taking out the Ordeal with Sranc don't remind me of the amazing feats of ants.

I've heard that the Glossary mentions Cnaiur and the Scylvendi fucking up Atrithau's forces. The Lonely City seems certain to finally fall to the Great Ruiner...

Hmm...

It's all on Zeûm and the Xiuhianni now man.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: The Sharmat on August 07, 2017, 07:22:45 pm
Zeum actually already has Sranc on its northern border according to Zoronga.



Zeum.

The Osthwai Mountains although the eastern end presents problems.

Back through the Gates to Eanna or through Jekk.

Nilnamesh.

Okay i'm done. Zeum seems the only safe option but realistically mountains don't seem to present problems for Sranc as the Yimaleti was described as their mother/cradle or something.

The Sranc can live in mountains just fine, that doesn't mean that they're good terrain for them to fight on.  The Bronzemen of Far Antiquity enjoyed considerable success against the Sranc of the Yimaleti until they were disbanded.

The Leash and the Knife, plus the fallout at Dagliash, aren't passable without some losses - though damn if the Sranc in the Celmomas Dream in TGO and No-God 2.0 taking out the Ordeal with Sranc don't remind me of the amazing feats of ants.
Deliberate. This is absolutely how someone would design an intelligent bioweapon.

I've heard that the Glossary mentions Cnaiur and the Scylvendi fucking up Atrithau's forces. The Lonely City seems certain to finally fall to the Great Ruiner...

Hmm...
It does. The heirless king of Atrithau is said to have died in battle with Cnaiür's Scylvendi horde.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: TwoMinutesToApocalypse on August 08, 2017, 01:42:13 am
Did we ever get a good description of what happened to this red Heron Spear?  I just remember Kellhus dropping it and it dangling from a chain.  Am I remembering that right?  Is is just hanging off the spearman's perch on the remains of the Canted Horn?  Were there any follow up passages about it I missed?  Or is it lost to history again?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: The Sharmat on August 08, 2017, 03:37:33 am
Kellhus dropped it when Aurang tackled him IIRC. It's probably smashed on the base of the Upright Horn somewhere.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 08, 2017, 10:19:39 am
Depends on how heavy the "coffer" is and how strong the cable is.  It's possible that it is dangling off the Upright Horn.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: TwoMinutesToApocalypse on August 08, 2017, 11:08:52 pm
Kellhus dropped it when Aurang tackled him IIRC. It's probably smashed on the base of the Upright Horn somewhere.

That's what I remember, but I also vaguely remember something about it still being attached to something when he dropped it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Madness on August 09, 2017, 03:57:38 am
It does. The heirless king of Atrithau is said to have died in battle with Cnaiür's Scylvendi horde.

Weird... wasn't the king of Atrithau at the time of the First Holy War also heir-less? Really makes me think that Skin-Spies have been ruling Atrithau for time.

Though I suppose that could have been fabricated hearsay on Conphas/Sarcellus the Second's part.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: The Sharmat on August 09, 2017, 04:13:45 am
It's the same guy.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Madness on August 09, 2017, 04:23:31 am
Ah. See, I really need to finish reading the canon artifact and explore the Expanded Glossary.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Wilshire on June 10, 2019, 03:57:25 pm
It's the Sun Lance.

What happened to the Heron spear is a mystery. However, if the No-God 2.0 doesn't have chorae on the carapace I don't think the "good" guys would need it anymore to destroy it, no?

You know, I actually took the no Chorae in the modified Carapace to be an upgrade by the Mutilated. It's been long assumed by a number of readers that the reason for the Chorae aren't for sorcerous protection but rather to perform some other function (soul-containment, whathaveyou, etc). It might follow that that's why Shauriatas was such important part of the Consult - besides breaking the Barricades - because their cabal didn't have the strictly Tekne know-how to start up the No-God. That Shauriatas jury rigged it to work with his sorcerous knowledge the first time.

By my reading, I interpreted the lack of Chorae to mean that the No-God functions better this time around.

This thought regarding Chorae and The Barricades brought about this thought:
It seems the Barricades must have been immune to the effects of Chorae. Otherwise, any bloke wearing a Chorae would be able to see the place and walk right up to it.

The existence of magic that is simply immune to chorae's interesting, given that the Chorae is explained throughout as the ultimate foil.

However it could be that The Architect was using a special kind of meta-god-gnostic fused magic to create his artifacts, and that his death brought an end to the possibility of such things. This very much recalls the fact that the genocide of every Cisharium was absolutely necessary for plot reasons. In both cases, you just can't have Magic that breaks all rules and has no limitations, and still have any kind of cogent story.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: SmilerLoki on June 10, 2019, 05:32:09 pm
However it could be that The Architect was using a special kind of meta-god-gnostic fused magic to create his artifacts, and that his death brought an end to the possibility of such things. This very much recalls the fact that the genocide of every Cisharium was absolutely necessary for plot reasons. In both cases, you just can't have Magic that breaks all rules and has no limitations, and still have any kind of cogent story.
All of Emilidis's artifacts are explicitly immune to Chorae, and one way to achieve that is outlined. It involves making a soul-infused object that constantly casts and recasts its sorcery, battling the effect of Chorae.

I think it's even mentioned that Emilidis used more evolved techniques than that, though.

Also, what Chorae do is a technique of sorcery, they don't straight up negate it, the use weaknesses of sorcerous paradigms to dismantle its manifestations (like Cants). It stands to reason that a technique like that can be battled by a more sophisticated use of sorcery, one that strengthens its principles beyond what's vulnerable to Chorae. To follow up on that thought, possible uses of Aporos that are more robust than Chorae might be out there, too.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Madness on June 10, 2019, 05:37:04 pm
Lol, dragged me in momentarily.

After TUC and the Expanded Glossary, the evidence suggests that Emilidis is missing or dead and he was trying obsessively to create a Markless/Sorcerous Artifact? Also, that he was exocommunicated from a Mansion at some point for his work? (The latter assertion I'm less sure about.)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: SmilerLoki on June 10, 2019, 05:42:59 pm
And then the cunny-loving dragon asserts that he devoured Emilidis. Who, additionally, "was cunny", whatever that's supposed to mean.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Wilshire on June 10, 2019, 06:05:31 pm
And then the cunny-loving dragon asserts that he devoured Emilidis. Who, additionally, "was cunny", whatever that's supposed to mean.
I think the centipede dragon probably spent too much time hanging out with sranc and inchoroi. "Cunny" just being used either because it makes people uncomfortable, or as a simple synonym for "meat".

All of Emilidis's artifacts are explicitly immune to Chorae, and one way to achieve that is outlined. It involves making a soul-infused object that constantly casts and recasts its sorcery, battling the effect of Chorae.
"Artifact" to me recalls a physical object, though I guess not necessarily. The Barricades are more interesting in this case, compared to an object, since there is nothing to infuse a soul into? Either way, a force field immune to sorcery, and chorae, would have been a nice Ward for any schoolmen/quya to know - again the point mostly being such things would ruin the story.

I think it's even mentioned that Emilidis used more evolved techniques than that, though.
Meta-god-gnostic fusion ;)

Also, what Chorae do is a technique of sorcery, they don't straight up negate it, the use weaknesses of sorcerous paradigms to dismantle its manifestations (like Cants). It stands to reason that a technique like that can be battled by a more sophisticated use of sorcery, one that strengthens its principles beyond what's vulnerable to Chorae. To follow up on that thought, possible uses of Aporos that are more robust than Chorae might be out there, too.
Not sure this is a cause-effect chain that makes sense.
The Aporos is a branch of sorcery, from which Chorae come. Chorae themselves though are the metaphysical opposite of magic, so I'm not sure describing it as a "technique of sorcery" makes sense. Admitedly, the whole thing is very confusing to me, and Bakker's words on the subject only serve to make things worse.

That said, Chorae are physical objects with runes inscribed in/on them to power them (apparently). I'm guessing this means if the runes are marred or damaged enough, it becomes a hunk of metal/stone rather than a localized-sorcerer-salting-anti-magic-field. Runes themselves pose an interesting problem for sorcery to me, as the usage of magic seems to tired practitioners at some level (kellhus tired post meta-gnosis exertions, Akka complains about holding the Light in TJE). Something, I assume Souls, need to power magic.

And on runes and Aporos, how would a chorae work. I wonder if it creates spherical shells of influence, and inside a chorae is at least 1 other layer of magic. A runed layer that holds magic, a soul, whatever, the thing that actually powers the no-field, and then an outer shell that has runes which describe the effects of the field. The two layers magically insulated , or magical forces facing opposite direction to keep them from canceling each other out.

Perhaps this type of layering is what led to the original No-God sarcophagus design, but Dunyain wisdom coming up with a more clever solution that didn't require chorae...

Lol, dragged me in momentarily.

After TUC and the Expanded Glossary, the evidence suggests that Emilidis is missing or dead and he was trying obsessively to create a Markless/Sorcerous Artifact? Also, that he was exocommunicated from a Mansion at some point for his work? (The latter assertion I'm less sure about.)
Yeah the Nonmen in general were not to keen on Aporostic(?) practices.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Madness on June 10, 2019, 06:17:39 pm
And then the cunny-loving dragon asserts that he devoured Emilidis. Who, additionally, "was cunny", whatever that's supposed to mean.

I never really did get the fan frustration with this. I doubt very much Bakker has spent any time on 4chan or its siblings variants.

Otherwise, there's a glossary entry or an interaction with Sorweel or Oinaral or some such that suggests Emilidis might just be MIA in the world.

Yeah the Nonmen in general were not to keen on Aporostic(?) practices.

Which I'm still interested in given Mimara's "miracle" against the Wight (I also really don't understand why people seem to think Mimara's first Chorae was "special"). I thought it pretty evident that she would see all Chorae as such with the Eye.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: SmilerLoki on June 10, 2019, 06:50:15 pm
"Artifact" to me recalls a physical object, though I guess not necessarily. The Barricades are more interesting in this case, compared to an object, since there is nothing to infuse a soul into?
I always thought there was a focal point to Barricades, some material construct infused with sorcery to grant them necessary stability and longevity. The fact that Emilidis was famous for his artifacts ties into that interpretation.

It's never explicitly confirmed, though, as far as I remember.

The Aporos is a branch of sorcery, from which Chorae come. Chorae themselves though are the metaphysical opposite of magic, so I'm not sure describing it as a "technique of sorcery" makes sense. Admitedly, the whole thing is very confusing to me, and Bakker's words on the subject only serve to make things worse.

So, here is a very short quote of Bakker's:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
The Aporos possesses a contradictory, or negative, semantics, and as such is able only to
undo the positive semantics of things like the Gnosis, Psukhe, Anagogis - even the Daimos.
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2083.msg31786#msg31786

There are more quotes of his on the subject that clarify a bit what he means (he also calls Chorae "ontological stressors" at some point), but the gist of it is explained by the evolution of logic, from zeroth-order to first to second, and, even better and more telling, by the history of set theory and the problems of its first naive iteration, eventually resolved in ZFC (Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory) and other more robust formulations of set theory (like Von Neumann–Bernays–Gödel set theory).

Basically, it comes down to sorcery not being implemented concisely enough, leading to sorcerous statements having innate vulnerabilities, exposed by the paradoxical semantics of Aporos. This can be rectified by reformulating sorcerous theory with the intent to fix such gaps in its logic, thus producing more robust sorcerous statements (compare real-world zeroth-order logic statements and first-order logic statements, for example).

But those statements can also have their own vulnerabilities, if the system is still inconsistent (which might or might not be so, and is debated a lot pertaining to many mathematical theories in the real world, with some of them found to be consistent, some not, and others having areas the consistency of which cannot be determined). That's my line of thinking here.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Wilshire on June 10, 2019, 07:02:20 pm
And then the cunny-loving dragon asserts that he devoured Emilidis. Who, additionally, "was cunny", whatever that's supposed to mean.

I never really did get the fan frustration with this. I doubt very much Bakker has spent any time on 4chan or its siblings variants.

Otherwise, there's a glossary entry or an interaction with Sorweel or Oinaral or some such that suggests Emilidis might just be MIA in the world.

Yeah the Nonmen in general were not to keen on Aporostic(?) practices.

Which I'm still interested in given Mimara's "miracle" against the Wight (I also really don't understand why people seem to think Mimara's first Chorae was "special"). I thought it pretty evident that she would see all Chorae as such with the Eye.

It'd just be tough to come up with a reasonable situation for a random chorae picked up from the field was actually some fabled Super Chorae (or to use the common Earwa vernacular, Meta-Chorae) ... doubly since said fabled backstory is never addressed or otherwise hinted at.

...
Basically, it comes to sorcery not being implemented concisely enough, leading to sorcerous statement having innate vulnerabilities, exposed by the paradoxical semantics of Aporos. This can be rectified by reformulating sorcerous theory with the intent to fix such gaps in its logic, thus producing more robust sorcerous statements...

But those statements can also have their own vulnerabilities, ...
hat's my line of thinking here.

I'm familiar with Bakker's quote, I just dont understand it ;) . However, after deleting out the jargon, that makes a bit more sense. Though to it sounds like this degrades Chorae to being minor hecklers or pedants to the greater Philosophical Teachings of Sorcery - that they are so effective is somewhat disappointing in this instance.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: SmilerLoki on June 10, 2019, 07:23:55 pm
I never really did get the fan frustration with this. I doubt very much Bakker has spent any time on 4chan or its siblings variants.
Oh, forgot to address this.

I find this both extremely funny and extremely epic, that's why I'm always bringing it up whenever an opportunity presents itself.

Though to it sounds like this degrades Chorae to being minor hecklers or pedants to the greater Philosophical Teachings of Sorcery - that they are so effective is somewhat disappointing in this instance.
I think it's the other way around here. It just showcases how weak our understanding of the world often is to even a slight bit of scrutiny. Just a bit, and everything comes crashing down.

But yeah, when you start to Wiki all that jargon (which I added specifically to give whoever reads my post reference points), it becomes really evident.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Wilshire on June 10, 2019, 07:34:06 pm
Though to it sounds like this degrades Chorae to being minor hecklers or pedants to the greater Philosophical Teachings of Sorcery - that they are so effective is somewhat disappointing in this instance.
I think it's the other way around here. It just showcases how weak our understanding of the world often is to even a slight bit of scrutiny. Just a bit, and everything comes crashing down.

But yeah, when you start to Wiki all that jargon (which I added specifically to give whoever reads my post reference points), it becomes really evident.

If you say so ;) . I'm not criticizing your usage btw, I assume its for the benefit of the audience should they be interested.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: SmilerLoki on June 10, 2019, 07:38:42 pm
If you say so ;) . I'm not criticizing your usage btw, I assume its for the benefit of the audience should they be interested.
No problem!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: H on June 17, 2019, 06:22:23 pm
Yeah the Nonmen in general were not to keen on Aporostic(?) practices.

Which I'm still interested in given Mimara's "miracle" against the Wight (I also really don't understand why people seem to think Mimara's first Chorae was "special"). I thought it pretty evident that she would see all Chorae as such with the Eye.

Well, because I am the sort of horse's ass who would quote myself:

But to return to what we were discussing, now the Spirit is the ledger, the Soul the stylus that writes upon it and the Body the vessel of the union.  This Spirit-as-ledger is how Mimara’s Judging Eye functions.  It’s view is the view to that ledger and in doing so, render judgment.  That is, human judgment.  Could it be then that Mimara's "power" to banish that Wight is similar to the sort of "thuamaturgy" we see Kellhus-Ajokli wield versus the Mutilated?  As in, a power not of Sorcery but of Divine providence.  That is to say, I somewhat disagree that Mimara's power is "setting the world" to a more "naturalistic" state.  Eärwa's "natural state" is that of enchantment, a place where the dead can linger.  So, the Wight's position is eminently natural.  Which, of course it is, because it is

I would divide out is that her intentions and the God's intentions aren't specifically one.  That is to say that Mimara's intentions are still her own.  The God couldn't care less if the Wight stayed there or not.  But Mimara certainly did.  In this way, she is right to declare that she holds the Gates.  This is not divine justice carried out by Mimara.  No, this is Mimara's justice carried out by the divine.  That distinction is important, at least in my estimation, because it means that Mimara is the locus of Judgement, the Eye only a tool to that end.  The "stillborn" issue, it was pointed out to me, seems to be a linguistic play on words, in the same manner as Éowyn can kill the Witch King in LotR.  Éowyn is no man, rightly.  So, Mimara does carry a stillborn, just also a living baby as well.

What Mimara seems to be doing, rather, is waking the God.  That is, "fixing" the frame, such that the world is as it should be, by Mimara's judgement.  This might well be the role of the Judging Eye.  That is, the same role taken on by God-as-Christ, post-Job, in rendering the perspective of God from the mortal vantage.  That is, the infinite cannot have a perspective on itself, because it is all thing.  The Infinite cannot have any perspective, because it has all perspectives, which is no perspective at all.  (This could easily be bias on my part, as I have at other times personally noted that there is a plausible parallel of sorts between Mimara and a Christ-figure.) (There is also something about Mimara's role being specifically conscious, as oppossed to the passive unconscious role of The God.)

Now, to me, what remains is the question of why this process turns the Chorae into a tool of banishment though.

I think Aporetics is actually a key here, in that the Chorae is passive, by nature, that is, it simply undoes that it contacts.  However, Mimara's sort of thaumatury, wielden through the lens of the Chorae, turns it from a sort of aporetic "black hole," a devourer or undoer of the "un-natural frame," into a "white hole" that is, a beacon of Mimara's frame.  So, the Chorae should do nothing to the natural state of the topos and it's contents.  But not with Mimara, where she sets the frame, the natural paradoxical function of the Chorae is paradoxically inverted to Mimara's Judgement, perhaps.

I have no idea how this relates to the Heron Spear though.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: Wilshire on June 17, 2019, 06:42:05 pm
We know that Markless magic is a thing, if we're calling it thaumaturgy due to it being God(s) (markless) magic  then I'm cool with that.

Is the Chorae itself actually material in the function of the object Mimara created? I don't know if that's actually the case - but certainly it can be easier to change the function of something than to create from scratch. Mimara and Kellhus' thaumaturgy are obviously going to be invoked in different ways. Kellhus directs things to happen through force of thought, Mimara through force of will. She thaumatically wills the chorae to function as she needs.

Achamian is confused when he sees Kellhus floating and whatever else markless magic , so him having no useful insight for what Mimar did is no surprise.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
Post by: H on June 17, 2019, 06:59:37 pm
We know that Markless magic is a thing, if we're calling it thaumaturgy due to it being God(s) (markless) magic  then I'm cool with that.

Is the Chorae itself actually material in the function of the object Mimara created? I don't know if that's actually the case - but certainly it can be easier to change the function of something than to create from scratch. Mimara and Kellhus' thaumaturgy are obviously going to be invoked in different ways. Kellhus directs things to happen through force of thought, Mimara through force of will. She thaumatically wills the chorae to function as she needs.

Achamian is confused when he sees Kellhus floating and whatever else markless magic , so him having no useful insight for what Mimar did is no surprise.

Yeah, sorry, I am terrible with involving my own personal jargon into things.  Indeed, I refer to Magic of a "Divine" nature, and so Markless, as "thaumaturgy."  I think both those aspects are key, as the Psûhke is Markless, but not what I would call thuamaturgy, specifically because the further factor of a Chorae not working on it.

Ultimately it's kind of unclear just what Kellhus is actually doing to get Markless sorcery.  It might be thuamaturgy, as I'd call it, via Ajokli, or it might actually be something like Titirga's proto-Psûhke.

In any case, I think the end product is slightly different, because in Mimara's case, her "power" seems to be in Judgement, in "setting the frame" of the world.  In Ajokli (and maybe Kellhus') case, it's about manifest power over objects in the world.  But that could well just be part and parcel of the source of each of their "power."  Mimara's come from the Cubit, which is the "passive" Frame of the universe.  Ajokli, et al, comes from a very different place, metaphysically speaking, a place necessarily within the Frame of the Cubit.

Anyway, in the case of Emilidis, my guess, based on nothing at all, is that he was an amoral tinkerer and likely did what he did by ruthlessly trapping and exploiting souls.