The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: TaoHorror on September 14, 2017, 02:31:13 pm

Title: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: TaoHorror on September 14, 2017, 02:31:13 pm
TUC Spoiler! DO NOT READ FURTHER IF YOU'VE NOT COMPLETED TUC OR YOU WILL BE DESTROYED

Forgive me if simply a reread would answer my question, but I like posting here so ...

I remember Met looking up to see 3 Ciphrang coming down on him. My memory is unclear what happened with their efforts after that. Met shows up in the Golden Room later to be strangled/hung by Kel - but don't recollect his interaction with the Ciphrang. I thought that was such a cool scene - I was like, "Yes! Kick that arrogant ass's ass!" ... but fizzled out? 3 Ciphrang seems like they could do massive damage to the scranc and bashrag, maybe even take out that dragon.

[EDIT Madness: Subject title.]
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: JerakoKayne on September 14, 2017, 03:16:45 pm
The ciphrang were summoned into a topos. They're as close to hell as the world can get, and so couldn't be fully controlled by the sorcerers who summoned them. Demons are not terribly inclined to just wreak wanton havoc once they're here, because Reality is such a painful experience for them. Their interests tend to be more like revenge on the one who dared bind them in this way, and then gtfo.

Since they were in a topos (or at least a particularly strong one) their will to do so was much stronger than the Daimos that summoned them. So the Daimotic sorcerers are basically ciphrang snacks in the Outside now.

[EDIT Madness: No spoiler tags necessary.]
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Madness on September 14, 2017, 04:43:20 pm
Tao's mistake but you definitely don't have to be spoiler tagging your posts in this subforum anymore. Nor even tagging the subject title as I did necessarily (I only edited because Tao didn't need the [ spoiler ][ /spoiler ] in his subject title).

To your post, Tao, I think that'd have been an awesome fight but the Ciphrang are directed at the High Cwol at the top of the Oblitus going for the Intrinsic Gate, as far as I read it.

Mekeritrig assumptively did have to make his way up the Oblitus and back to the Golden Room, though.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Sausuna on September 14, 2017, 05:39:04 pm
Just took it as they went towards the masses of Scranc and Met peaced out. And assumedly once the one (forget the name) was close enough to the torpos that he could take his master (forget his name) straight to hell, the others were probably unbound. Some assumedly might have been defeated as well since the description does indicate they can be wounded/defeated by mortal means. Not sure if there was more than one Scarlet Spires sorcerer controlling them or just the one blind dude.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Wolfdrop on September 14, 2017, 06:04:34 pm
As far as I'm aware Kakaliol escaped and claimed Iyokus' soul.

The others I think did some pretty heavy damage to the defences and we're destroyed in the process. It just happened off screen. Hagazioz left a huge breach with his death throes.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: SuJuroit on September 14, 2017, 06:11:01 pm
Quote
The others I think did some pretty heavy damage to the defences and we're destroyed in the process. It just happened off screen.

Yeah.  With the exception of Kakaliol, all the other ciphrang we've seen summoned into the Inward and fight on camera were, at best, a match for a single skilled Gnostic sorcerer.  Achamian beats one down and battles a second to, essentially, a draw (although it probably could have killed him if that's what Iyokus really wanted).  Maybe the Daimotic sorcerers upped their game after Kellhus became Aspect Emperor?  We certainly never saw anything as powerful as Kakaliol in the first trilogy.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Wolfdrop on September 14, 2017, 07:06:42 pm
Seems like a bunch of Potents they unleashed. Apart from Zioz, I think the rest we've seen were debiles.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Rots on September 28, 2017, 03:28:33 am
This might be a total nerdanel but do we have any sort of mechanistic understanding of the daimos? Cnauir is most certainly in the Outside as one ridiculously powerful Ciphrang, if Serwa is dead she will be one also, and what about Kellhus? He seems to have disappeared but since hes described as being a hunger if he is in the Outside somewhere hes a ciphrang. If there are any daimotic sorcerers still wandering the land and some dots get connected i wonder if there is a way to summon any of the new ciphrang?

Again, to my reading there is no real understanding of the metaphysics of the daimos and how the demons can be yoked and controlled but i could certainly be wrong..Anywho, just a thought that would be pretty interesting to see played out.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 28, 2017, 07:07:52 am
There's a mention of Iyokus's Daimotic confrers, which makes sense because of course there is more than one sorcerer controlling all those Ciphrang.  They do hit the walls before the defensive wards are wrecked by the Chorae barrage and the Erratics are killed, so while it seems pretty clear they inflict massive damage on the Sranc and Bashrag ranks, they're being subject to a lot of punishment as well.  The topos doesn't seem to matter until they get too close to the Ark itself because it's only at the High Cwol do we see a Ciphrang realize that there's a door home nearby.  As for the quality of the demons, this is an art that the Aspect Emperor has learned, applied his genius too, and probably promoted and this is the time to go all out. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Sausuna on September 28, 2017, 12:41:01 pm
This might be a total nerdanel but do we have any sort of mechanistic understanding of the daimos? Cnauir is most certainly in the Outside as one ridiculously powerful Ciphrang, if Serwa is dead she will be one also, and what about Kellhus? He seems to have disappeared but since hes described as being a hunger if he is in the Outside somewhere hes a ciphrang. If there are any daimotic sorcerers still wandering the land and some dots get connected i wonder if there is a way to summon any of the new ciphrang?

Again, to my reading there is no real understanding of the metaphysics of the daimos and how the demons can be yoked and controlled but i could certainly be wrong..Anywho, just a thought that would be pretty interesting to see played out.
The Daimos is a very mysterious art compared to things like the Anagnosis and Gnosis. It seemingly allows the summoning and enslavement of demons, as well as allowing one to walk the Outside (via the Inversions, said to be the most feared disciplines of the Daimos).

I'm not sure Serwa would be one. I only vaguely remember how damned she looks when Mimara sees her, but don't recall her being called a ciphrang? Either way, I think Bakker's language makes it sound like her living is a strong possibility. As for Kellhus, theories abound, and I doubt we'll know whatsoever until the next books. I personally think Oblivion, partly merged with Ajokli, or used soul trapping magic on himself.

The number of Daimos users has to be extremely, extremely, extremely thin at this point. We already know the practice was outlawed by The Thousand Temples and most schools. The Scarlet Spires are the only ones we know who put real effort into it and they just got super savaged like everyone else. Not sure who else would possibly be using it, especially given the seem super damnation associated with it. As for the metaphysics, I think the glossary entries will help explain more.


Quote
Daimos—Also known as noömancy. The sorcery of summoning and enslaving agencies from the Outside. Daimotic Cants involve exploitation of the extensionless nature of the soul, the fact that all souls occupy the identical space, one orthogonal to the space of Bios, yet still belonging to the space of speech. For both political and pragmatic reasons, many Schools forbid their utterance, condemning the Daimos as irresponsible, if not reprehensible. The Tusk condemns the practice as wicked, and lists three different ways to execute its practioners. Some esoteric scholars claim that Daimotic sorcerers condemn themselves to eternal torment at the hands of their erstwhile slaves when they die. But then all sorcerers arrive where monsters have come before them.

Inversions—Daimotic Cants of Dispossession, or more generally, sorcery allowing the souls of the living to wander the ways of the dead. Outlawed by the Thousand Temples, eschewed by the Mandate, Inversions are the most feared discipline of the Daimos, especially within the Scarlet Spires.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: MSJ on September 28, 2017, 01:03:50 pm
If we take Bakker at his word (which I am loath to do.), Kellhus is dead but not done. So he is a diamotic sorcerer. If his soul is in the other decapitant, he could still use the Diamos presumably. Don't need anyone else to do the work for him.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 29, 2017, 10:24:48 am
It's important to keep clear that the Daimos isn't a kind of sorcery like Anagogic or Gnostic, it's an application of Sorcery, like the Cants of Compulsion or War-Cants.  It's rarity is in part due to the fact that to work the Daimos is to embrace your own damnation, which is something most sorcerers are loath to do and why the far reaching and daring Scarlet Spires are the ones to developed it.  Kellhus has then taken their work and pushed it ahead armed with his extraordinary intellect and the Metagnosis.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Sausuna on September 29, 2017, 12:39:00 pm
It's important to keep clear that the Daimos isn't a kind of sorcery like Anagogic or Gnostic, it's an application of Sorcery, like the Cants of Compulsion or War-Cants.  It's rarity is in part due to the fact that to work the Daimos is to embrace your own damnation, which is something most sorcerers are loath to do and why the far reaching and daring Scarlet Spires are the ones to developed it.  Kellhus has then taken their work and pushed it ahead armed with his extraordinary intellect and the Metagnosis.
Could one not consider it a kind of sorcery like those two? Just based on how the glossary describes the magics.
Anagogis - A branch of sorcery.
Gnosis - The branch of sorcery once practiced by the Gnostic Schools of the Ancient North.
Aporos - Described as a lost branch of sorcery.
Psûkhe - The arcane practice of the Cishaurim, much like sorcery, but cruder in its exercise.
Daimos - The sorcery of summoning and enslaving agencies of the Outside. (And also, apparently, visiting it, per Inversions.)

If anything seems not a branch itself, I'd think it is Metagnosis, which is described as a complication of the Gnosis rather than a different practice. The Inversions are even outlined as 'Daimotic Cants'. It even runs on a unique metaphysical principle. The Psûkhe uses passion, the Aporos is paradoxical (if I remember correctly Bakker's comments), the Anagogis is analogies, the Gnosis is abstractions, and the Daimos is to abuse the fact of souls all inhabiting one space with speech taking control of that (The Outside) right next to the physical world.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 29, 2017, 07:30:31 pm
That's not how it works.  The Gnosis, Anagogic Sorcery, and the Psukhe are different mechanisms of enacting sorcery.  The Metagnosis is an application of the Gnosis using two inutterals instead of one, thus having three reference points to buttress the meaning and precision of the Cants, meaning they are more powerful and a wider array of possible acts because of the existence of the third reference point.

The Daimos is the practice of applying that sorcery to the Outside and its inhabitants.  Just like the Cants of Compulsion or Wards are worked differently when they are Abstractions rather than Analogies, but both produce similar effects.  The Cants of Compulsion also work on a unique metaphysical principle and make a hash of free will but they are still parts of their respected branches. The Daimos is the same, a type of applied sorcery not separate type of sorcery itself.  Since it deals with the Outside and damnation, its a branch most Schools don't even try to develop but the Scarlet Spires didn't let that stop them.  That's why the Scarlet Spires could develop it, because it is possible to develop using Anagogic Sorcery, and Kellhus is able to adapt that knowledge to the Gnosis.

There's a post somewhere in Three Seas where Bakker discusses it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Sausuna on September 29, 2017, 07:50:15 pm
That's not how it works.  The Gnosis, Anagogic Sorcery, and the Psukhe are different mechanisms of enacting sorcery.  The Metagnosis is an application of the Gnosis using two inutterals instead of one, thus having three reference points to buttress the meaning and precision of the Cants, meaning they are more powerful and a wider array of possible acts because of the existence of the third reference point.
This part is correct, yes, and basically what I think I said.

Quote
The Daimos is the practice of applying that sorcery to the Outside and its inhabitants.  Just like the Cants of Compulsion or Wards are worked differently when they are Abstractions rather than Analogies, but both produce similar effects.  The Cants of Compulsion also work on a unique metaphysical principle and make a hash of free will but they are still parts of their respected branches. The Daimos is the same, a type of applied sorcery not separate type of sorcery itself.  Since it deals with the Outside and damnation, its a branch most Schools don't even try to develop but the Scarlet Spires didn't let that stop them.  That's why the Scarlet Spires could develop it, because it is possible to develop using Anagogic Sorcery, and Kellhus is able to adapt that knowledge to the Gnosis.

There's a post somewhere in Three Seas where Bakker discusses it.
If there is additional language, I'd love to see it. But as described, it is poorly outlined that it isn't a different branch in the books. If the glossary is calling it 'the sorcery of' then it very much seems a different principal, especially when described as such.

Even more-so when we have something called Daimotic cants. Other examples of similar language are the Agonies being called the Gnostic cants of Torment. The Dragonhead and Houlari Twin-Tempests are called Anagogic cants. Under the Cants of Calling it specifies there are Anagogic and Gnostic cants of calling. Yet we have the Daimos saying it has Daimotic cants, and the Inversions call them Daimotic cants.

Further, it has rather unique applications of summoning (which we've never seen applied to anything else, besides arguably teleportation, but the act works different and is never compared) and we're never actually shown Kellhus using the Daimos differently than anyone else.

[EDIT Madness: Quote tag.]
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: TLEILAXU on September 29, 2017, 09:01:09 pm
I agree. All the sorceries rely on tampering with the world using some kind of meaning, but the Daimos seems to be the only one actually dealing with stuff IN the Outside.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: MSJ on September 30, 2017, 01:06:00 am
Quote from:  Sausuna
Even more-so when we have something called Daimotic cants. Other examples of similar language are the Agonies being called the Gnostic cants of Torment. The Dragonhead and Houlari Twin-Tempests are called Anagogic cants. Under the Cants of Calling it specifies there are Anagogic and Gnostic cants of calling. Yet we have the Daimos saying it has Daimotic cants, and the Inversions call them Daimotic cants.

All we have to do is go back and see when Iyokus summons the Ciphrang and we'll know what the Diamos involves.

ETA: excuse me, I didn't read al the posts, obviously using the Diamos to travel to the hells/Outside certainly requires more than summoning a Ciphrang, methinks.

ETAA: could just be a simple as Head on a Pole, or some other reference point to keep the soul fixed, so as it doesn't succumb to the hungers of the Outside. There are probably many different ways and Iyokus's coffees would be awesome to actually see. I don't think we will though.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 30, 2017, 10:27:11 am
All sorcerers walk on the echo of the ground when they fly.  All sorcerers refer back to a person they know at a place they know when they perform the Cants of Calling.  The Cants of Compulsion are Cants of possession, Gnostic and Anagogic both, that force the mind in knew directions and may leave the victim permanently changed.  Both the Gnosis and Anagogic Sorcery use the same terminology and same basic types of defensive sorceries: Wards of Exposure, Wards of Shielding, and Skin Wards.  And so on.  The metaphysical principles involved are the same- it is the mechanisms of manipulation, and the capability of those mechanisms, that differ.

So it is with the Daimos.  It is a type of sorcery, like war cants or wards, or cants of torment but it deals with what most sorcerers shrink from.  The Scarlet Spires did not invent a whole knew kind of sorcery working on different principles when they developed the Daimos.  Instead they applied the Anagogic Sorcery they possessed and understood to the mastering of the Outside.

This is supported not only by logic, but the terminology in the appendix.  The Anagosis, the Gnosis, and the Iswazi are all referred to as "branches" of sorcery.  The Daimos is not only not referred to in such a manner, but is referred to as type of Cant.  The Daimos is not a separate type of sorcery but a rarely studied and even more rarely used set of sorcerous abilities, such are the moral and political repercussions of its use. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Ain't Germain on September 30, 2017, 01:03:22 pm
All sorcerers walk on the echo of the ground when they fly.  All sorcerers refer back to a person they know at a place they know when they perform the Cants of Calling.  The Cants of Compulsion are Cants of possession, Gnostic and Anagogic both, that force the mind in knew directions and may leave the victim permanently changed.  Both the Gnosis and Anagogic Sorcery use the same terminology and same basic types of defensive sorceries: Wards of Exposure, Wards of Shielding, and Skin Wards.  And so on.  The metaphysical principles involved are the same- it is the mechanisms of manipulation, and the capability of those mechanisms, that differ.

So it is with the Daimos.  It is a type of sorcery, like war cants or wards, or cants of torment but it deals with what most sorcerers shrink from.  The Scarlet Spires did not invent a whole knew kind of sorcery working on different principles when they developed the Daimos.  Instead they applied the Anagogic Sorcery they possessed and understood to the mastering of the Outside.

This is supported not only by logic, but the terminology in the appendix.  The Anagosis, the Gnosis, and the Iswazi are all referred to as "branches" of sorcery.  The Daimos is not only not referred to in such a manner, but is referred to as type of Cant.  The Daimos is not a separate type of sorcery but a rarely studied and even more rarely used set of sorcerous abilities, such are the moral and political repercussions of its use.

Good post, and I agree with all your main points.

While I'm not sure there will ever be a clean-cut, canonized outline of the distinct forms of magic, I personally think it could pretty much be broken into (at most) three distinct forms. The first form consists of "Sorcery Proper" and includes the Gnostic, Anagogic, and Daimotic branches.

I perpetually waver on whether the Psukhe and the use of Water, in general, should be lumped in with the other Sorcerous methodologies. I do not, however, think Cishaurim and their Psukhe are the sole representatives of Water practictioners. At this point I'm inclined to believe that most, if not at all, of the "theurgic" or divine sorceries used by the likes of Psatma and Porsparian are simply a different application of the Water.

The third category would be the Tekne, which I think is probably not just advanced technology -- at the very least, it is clearly technology that carries intrinsic metaphysical consequences. Aporetics are the odd one out since they seemingly function based on semantic roots without necessarily being Sorcery Proper.

Both Aporetics and the Tekne (as well as sorcerous artifacts) bear various similarities to traditional ideas of witchcraft, and historically witchcraft has been called the "Old Religion". The word Tekne is derived from the Greek 'techne' (or craft). Since the Tekne itself is referred to occasionally as the "Old Science", and given that the Tekne, Aporetics, and Sorcerous artifacts are all a type of 'craft' as it were, it doesn't seem too far-fetched to lump them all together.

It also seems possible that the unifying aspect of these various forms of "witchcraft" is the mysterious language of souls, as depicted on the Ekkinu. I would suggest that most sorcerous artifacts are enchanted by inscriptions of the very same metaphysical source code if you will. This could explain why Emilidis's artifacts are unaffected by Chorae, for example.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Cynical Cat on October 01, 2017, 10:54:34 am
Thank you and I agree with your points as well.  The appendix describes the Psukhe as "arcane practice . . ., much like sorcery", which is to say much like sorcery but not sorcery.  Crucially, the Psukhe does not employ language and depend upon meaning for its strength, instead being based on intuition and being fueled by passion.  It too is acting on the same metaphorical principles (walking on the echoes of the ground, its compulsions only working on beings with souls, etcetera) and its users are as vulnerable to Chorae which means even though its technically not sorcery, it is pretty damn close. 

And you're right about the Tekne too.  I had initially thought, way back during the first trilogy, the No-God to be some unholy improvisation of the Tekne and the Aporos.  The sorcery of negation seemed like a good fit for a barrier to souls entering the world, but when we learned that genocide wasn't the Inchoroi's reaction to learning they could be damned once they were stranded on this strange world but instead the whole reason they came to Earwa in the first place, my perspective shifted.  Dragons, products of the Tekne that they are, are clearly partially supernatural in nature.  The Inverse Flame is another piece of high technology that touches on the Outside and, of course, the No-God.  It makes sense.  If physical world and the Outside are connected, if their is interaction, then that means that physical actions can in some way interact with the Outside and technology can be the producer of those actions and effects.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Madness on October 01, 2017, 03:10:54 pm
It too is acting on the same metaphorical principles (walking on the echoes of the ground, its compulsions only working on beings with souls, etcetera) and its users are as vulnerable to Chorae which means even though its technically not sorcery, it is pretty damn close. 

Aside, they don't seem to walk on the echo of the ground, they're like flying around - which only seemed explicit to me as per Meppa in TGO. Also - I'm fairly sure I'm of a minority on this - Cishaurim don't Salt.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: TLEILAXU on October 01, 2017, 07:06:41 pm
I was pretty sure they did salt but now I'm starting to doubt. They are certainly killed by chorae, but are they explicitly salted? Since the degree of saltations seems to depend on the magnitude of the mark, and the Cishaurim possess no mark, it would make sense if they didn't salt.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Cynical Cat on October 01, 2017, 07:16:50 pm
The robes make telling whether or not they are "walking" hard to determine.  I don't recall any passages that indicate they don't.  And yes, they don't salt but they do die when struck by Chorae (there's no clear description, but they seem to burn and die) and Chorae affect their arcana in the same way they neutralize sorcery.  So "vulnerable to Chorae" does apply, even if the effects are slightly different.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: TaoHorror on October 01, 2017, 07:35:22 pm
Moe Sr. gets salted by Cnaiur.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Cynical Cat on October 02, 2017, 07:41:56 am
Moe Sr. gets salted by Cnaiur.

No, he burned although that might be because he was so weak in the Water.  TTT page 387  "Moengus gasped, jerked, and spasmed as Cnauiur rolled the Chorae across his cheek.  White light flared from his gouged sockets.  For an instant, Cnaiur thought, it seemed the God watched him through a man's skull.

What do you see?

But them his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them.
"Not again!" Cnaiur howled at the sagging form."

Bolding is mine.  He burns, he does not turn to salt, and his body sags.  Now Inrau also doesn't have the typical Chorae reaction, but he was barely marked and we all know Moenghus was weak in the Water. 

Page 378, Proyas hits one of the Incandanti with his Chorae.  "Then a flash, a black-ringed circle light, from which the saffron figure plummeted like a sodden flag."  It's unclear exactly how the Cishaurum dies, but the flash of light and the death are consistent with Chorae-sorcerer interactions.  It's clear that the Psukhe isn't quite sorcery, but its close enough as far as most things are considered.  Obviously, the eyes of the Few disagree and the judgement of the God of Gods remains to be seen.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: TaoHorror on October 02, 2017, 05:33:17 pm
Moe Sr. gets salted by Cnaiur.

No, he burned although that might be because he was so weak in the Water.  TTT page 387  "Moengus gasped, jerked, and spasmed as Cnauiur rolled the Chorae across his cheek.  White light flared from his gouged sockets.  For an instant, Cnaiur thought, it seemed the God watched him through a man's skull.

What do you see?

But them his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them.
"Not again!" Cnaiur howled at the sagging form."

Bolding is mine.  He burns, he does not turn to salt, and his body sags.  Now Inrau also doesn't have the typical Chorae reaction, but he was barely marked and we all know Moenghus was weak in the Water. 

Page 378, Proyas hits one of the Incandanti with his Chorae.  "Then a flash, a black-ringed circle light, from which the saffron figure plummeted like a sodden flag."  It's unclear exactly how the Cishaurum dies, but the flash of light and the death are consistent with Chorae-sorcerer interactions.  It's clear that the Psukhe isn't quite sorcery, but its close enough as far as most things are considered.  Obviously, the eyes of the Few disagree and the judgement of the God of Gods remains to be seen.

Thanks for that - I have to reread this series, I'm "remembering" all sorts of alternative facts ... sigh
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Madness on October 03, 2017, 06:30:14 pm
Lol, as I've maintained for years now - though I expect to be disappointed inevitably given Bakker's comments at Zaudunyanicon about Fane having one of the most wrong interpretations of Earwa's reality - none of the three Cishaurim, killed by Chorae on page, explicitly Salt.

What seems to happen to them seems more akin to the idea of Rapture... neatly folded robes on the ground as the corporeal body returns to the Source ;).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Cynical Cat on October 03, 2017, 07:58:23 pm
That's also not correct because there's clearly some kind of body.  "Falling like a sodden flag" means that there is a fair amount of weight to cause it fall like that instead of cloth on the wind and, of course, Moenghus's body remains.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Cynical Cat on October 04, 2017, 09:43:07 am
A few additional points.  One, I don't think the Aporos and Tekne are closely related, although the Tekne clearly does have the ability to interact with the supernatural.  Like all interacting forces, its possible they can be combined or come into conflict (Chorae and Wracu) but that doesn't make related arts.

At this point I'm inclined to believe that most, if not at all, of the "theurgic" or divine sorceries used by the likes of Psatma and Porsparian are simply a different application of the Water.

This isn't true because we've seen Psatma handle a Chorae, specifically the one she used to destroy the Swayal infiltrator.  Something that clearly isn't sorcery is at work. 

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Madness on October 04, 2017, 05:37:18 pm
That's also not correct because there's clearly some kind of body.  "Falling like a sodden flag" means that there is a fair amount of weight to cause it fall like that instead of cloth on the wind and, of course, Moenghus's body remains.

Truth, though that could just be heavy robes.

What do you make of the "burning as he must" and "sagging form" portion of what you quoted from TTT above? Could be the body dissipating and the clothes sagging without the body therein? Cnaiur's too far gone to notice ;).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Cynical Cat on October 05, 2017, 11:43:26 am
My impression is that Moe has become burning meat.  Moe isn't wearing much in the way of clothes and "sagging" isn't the way you describe a robe around a vanishing body.  It's possible that the more powerful Cishaurim are actually gibbed by the Chorae, but it seems we get massive tissue trauma and burning when Chorae hits a Psukharim.  There's a some wiggle room for interpretation, but there's clearly some burning and the remnants of a body left.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Madness on October 05, 2017, 04:31:42 pm
Hmm... very interesting. Even then, we should ask why Chorae would burn rather than Salt a Cishaurim.

Oh, and also, on this note, why did the kipfa’aifan burn when Nannaferi touched it in WLW?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Cynical Cat on October 05, 2017, 10:08:55 pm
Hmm... very interesting. Even then, we should ask why Chorae would burn rather than Salt a Cishaurim.

Chorae are products of the Aporos, which is to say language based sorcery where meaning is of crucial importance.  Cishaurim don't die in quite the same way as sorcerers because the Psukhe isn't quite sorcery, but its so very close to sorcery that interaction with the Chorae produce similar but not identical effects.

As for Nannaferi, she seems to be a walking pinhole in the veil between the World and the Outside through which Yawter can pour some of her power.  That might not be a terribly accurate metaphor because we don't have really bright and well educated characters giving detailed discourses on this subject, backed by millennia of scholarly works at this point in the series but since Mimara is a viewpoint character and she is likely to be around Akka, we may get this in the No-God.  The book is scorched in the same manner as Nannaferi grows young, she receives premonitions of the future, and Meppa is healed.  Yawter acts through her, changing the world without sorcery. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Madness on October 06, 2017, 02:06:29 am
...

I always appreciated Duskweaver's thaumaturgy designation.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
Post by: Wilshire on July 22, 2019, 05:59:40 pm
Salt has weight. Put a 100 pound sack of salt in heavy robes and it'll drop 'like a sodden flag'. (unlike, I'd imagine, a discorporated raptured body which would simply cease to exist)

A body slowly turning into salt would definitely begin to sag, especially if the salking took place front the back. As the back musles lost their anchor points to salting skeleton/ligaments/musles, it would sag.

Cish salt.

Lol, as I've maintained for years now - though I expect to be disappointed inevitably given Bakker's comments at Zaudunyanicon about Fane having one of the most wrong interpretations of Earwa's reality - none of the three Cishaurim, killed by Chorae on page, explicitly Salt.

What seems to happen to them seems more akin to the idea of Rapture... neatly folded robes on the ground as the corporeal body returns to the Source ;).
Also yes (to the bold). Though so few can discuss those particulars.