I didn't know his entire body disintegrated. I thought his skin just got fucked up.

Time for another TUC quote, I think. Again, under a spoiler tag.
It happens gradually. First his skin starts to bleed, then it starts to peal back from his body, then the rest of his body progressively disintegrates.

I actually think that. In fact, a lot of Cnaiur scenes make me think of Guts, especially the imagery. It made me wonder if Bakker ever read Berserk. His answer? "No. Sounds cool though." Heh.

There are quite a few similarities, yes, not only in terms of characters but also in the main themes present in both Berserk and TSA. It would be nice if the similarities were an intentional homage, but, you know, sometimes two works of fiction can be very similar just by sheer coincidence.
This makes me wish Bakker would read Berserk before publishing TNG and we'd have some actual deliberate influences there...but he doesn't seem like the kind of person that would read manga (I might be completely mistaken on this, of course - unlike many people in this forum, I don't even personally know him).

Yup. I think Bakker meant bride price too. I would just love to know more about this.

So would I. At this point the only way we'd know would either be someone directly asking Bakker about it or a prequel. The latter option only has some chance of happening (in the near future at least) if it's in the form of a short story.

I'd be interested. Especially about Proyas's mother as she was considered "legendary" and probably the reason why he turned out the way he did. Female consult members too, like Ieva.

I'll let you know when I actually make that list, then. Both Thaila the elder (Proyas' mother) and Iëva will definitely be on that list. (I'm not going to include characters such as Miramis or Thaila the younger because there's still a good enough chance we will see them in TNG.)

Update as of May 12, 2018:
-Edited the "Known Members" section of the "Cishaurim" page.
-Created the "House Nersei", "House Coithus", "House Hoga", "House Hringa", "Iërus Ilimenni" and "Mbimayu" pages.


Some remarks on these new updates:
-I'm counting Nersei Xinemus as a king since he would technically be one since Proyas' death, being his only son and all. (Of course, who knows how long the poor boy will remain as such, given that the Second Apocalypse has now started...)
-Not sure if the Hringa family can be called a "House" since they're never referred as such in the books, but if anyone has any objections I can rename it to "Hringa Dynasty" or something of the sort.



Update as of May 13, 2018:
-Created the "Nersei Eukernas II" page.
-Edited the "Nersei Thaila (elder)", "Nersei Miramis", "Nersei Xinemus" and "Nersei Thaila (younger)" pages to add the necessary references.
-Edited the "Known Ciphrang" section of the "Ciphrang" page to add Ciphrang mentioned in TAE.



Update as of May 16, 2018:
-Created the "Eppaltros" and "Aälsa" pages.
-Did some editing and expansion of the "Anissi" and "Sanathi" pages.

Here are my comments on this chapter. This ended up turning into "Ikurei Xerius III: a character study (and some other things)", which was surprising to me, as I never cared too much about Xerius as a character before. Rereading this chapter has given me a newfound appreciation for him (even if he's still far from being one of my favourite characters).

Save for Skeaös, I know none of these people.

This is just sad, especially since Skeaös is actually a skin-spy by this point. Meaning he really doesn't know anyone, not truly. Emperor he might be, but Xerius is really quite lonely.

Not three hours earlier, the Prime Counsel had informed him of Calmemunis' feud with his illustrious kinsman. According to their sources in Conriya, Proyas had ordered Calmemunis whipped for impiety at the Battle of Paremti the previous year.

And we have yet another moment establishing Proyas' character. Very telling.

The old ingrate, Xerius was convinced, was becoming as bad as his mother.

They do seem to be working together, which is more evidence for them both being skin-spies at this point.

Xerius paused, moved by his words and thrilled by the resonance of his voice across the distance of polished marble. How could they deny the force of his oratory?

This chapter really got me thinking about Xerius' character. Besides the loneliness I mentioned above, he does seem to be quite insecure - the constant self-reassurance of his might and divinity reads like someone desperately trying to convince themselves to me. He might be a terrible person (but then again, who is a fully good person in this series, except maybe Inrau?), but I just felt sorry for him while rereading this chapter.

The stocky officer at his side could bear no more. "Sign nothing, Lord Palatine! The Shriah, I wager, has heard nothing of this either."
"And who would you be?" Xerius snapped.
"Krijates Xinemus," the man said briskly, "Lord Marshal of Attrempus."

"(...) Lord Xinemus, here, is a close friend of Nersei Proyas"-the old Counsel paused for the briefest of instants, no doubt to allow his Emperor time to digest the significance of this-"his childhood sword trainer, if I'm not mistaken."

Xinemus' first appearance! We learn right away how close he is to Proyas, and how much Proyas seems to trust him.

Xinemus laughed and ruefully shook his head. Turning to Calmemunis, he said, "We were warned this might happen, my Lord."
"Warned what might happen, Marshal?" Xerius cried. This was beyond all tolerance!
"That House Ikurei would play games with what is holy."

Unlike Calmemunis, Xinemus is smart enough to realize what is going on and is not afraid of confronting Xerius outright.
Sadly, being bold, direct and quick to action will not go well for him at all later on, as we all know...

Something warm and viscous struck his cheek. Stunned, he slapped at his face, then studied the muck on his fingers. A premonition of doom struck him, gouged his breast of all breath. What was this? Some kind of omen?

One of his birds had defiled him . . . What could it mean? He had risked everything. Everything!

As funny as Xerius being shat on by a bird is, this is just more proof of what I've been saying. He's so paranoid and superstitious that everything has to be some sort of omen (granted, Eärwan societies do seem to be very superstitious as a whole, but still).

He studied the bird for a moment, watched it convulse and shudder. Was it you, little one? Who bid you do this? Who?
A mere bird would never dare offend an emperor.

Yet he's not wrong - someone is definitely manipulating him...several "someones", in fact. He's just paranoid about the wrong things.

"Good fortune," Arithmeas, his favourite augur and astrologer, called out. "Among the lower castes, to be . . . ah, shat upon by a bird is the cause of great celebration."

His cheek tingled, as though it too recognized the truth of the augur's words. It was an omen! And a good one at that. He could feel it!
Again the Gods have touched me!

Suddenly revived, he climbed the steps, avidly listening as Arithmeas expanded on the way this event coincided with his star, which had just entered the horizon of Anagke, the Whore of Fate, and now stood upon two fortuitous axes with the Nail of Heaven.

Arithmeas is messing with Xerius. Seriously. Don't tell me that astrology really is a legitimate thing in Eärwa, I know that, I'm just certain that there is more to it in this case. Xerius is being played by so many people (and skin-spies) at this point.
No, Xerius, Anagkë isn't really favouring you...in fact I'd say you're one of her favourite playthings, right after Akka.

"My cheek . . . Should I wash it?"
The man waved his hands in a comical fashion. "No! D-definitely not, God-of-Men. It's crucial that you wait at least three days. Crucial."

Come on, tell me he's not having fun at Xerius' expense here. I dare you. (Still a very amusing moment.)

He sensed something odd in her manner, something bottled.

She turned and appraised him in a manner that was at once coquettish and masculine.

More red flags...I'm fully convinced Istriya is a skin-spy already by this point. Behaving oddly, looking somewhat masculine...it makes sense.

The old, Xerius had always thought, were ugly, both in flesh and spirit. Age forever transformed hope into resentment. What was virile and ambitious in young eyes became impotent and covetous in old.

Here's some more ageism, just like we had in chapter 2 with Akka's thoughts about Nautzera. Xerius is even older than Akka, though - he's 50-51 by this point - and Istriya (if she was the real Istriya, that is) would be 64-65. He does seem to be (along with everything else I've pointed out already) someone who's terrified of growing old.

Ikurei Istriya, the Empress of Nansur, whose dowry had been the burning of the Imperial Harem.

Check Istriya and Xerius' ages in the glossary or the wiki. She gave birth to him when she was ~14. Now imagine a newly wed Istriya, at most 14 years old (assuming she had recently turned 14 when she was married and that Xerius was conceived very shortly afterwards), forcing her husband to burn the Imperial Harem for her sake.
Istriya really was a force to be reckoned with. I wish we could have met the real one, especially when she was still in her prime. Just another thing that makes me wish for a PON prequel of some sort, even if it was only a short story or something...

Do they plot? Is this treachery? But he shrugged these thoughts away; they occurred far too frequently to be trusted.

See, the thing is, Xerius is aware of his own paranoia. He does have legitimate reasons to be paranoid (given not only the current events, but the Nansur Empire's own history), but seems to wish he didn't have to be so suspicious of everyone and everything all the time.

"But does this mean that you play Maithanet, or that Maithanet plays you?"

Oh, he tries his best, he really does, but Dûnyain play everyone in this game.

"Our new Shriah," he said, "is much overrated."
Let him think he plays me.

Unfortunately for Xerius, Maithanet is not at all overrated, though it's not like he could know that.

Xerius was not fool enough to think that he was the equal of his ancestors in strength of arms or spirit. Ikurei Xerius III was no fool. The present age was different, and different strengths were called for.

Once again, more self-awareness. He doesn't seem to be as incompetent as everyone else thinks (though he's no master manipulator either, in my opinion at least), it's just that he's completely overmatched, dealing with Conphas and the machinations of two (soon to be three) Dûnyain.

"What is it you plan, Xerius? You must tell me!"

Thing-called-Istriya is being too careless here. Like thing-called Sarcellus 1.0, she (he? I'm never sure what pronouns to use for skin-spies impersonating women) is not too great at his/her job.
Also, here we have one of the many, many variations of "TELL ME..." that are much more easily noticed on a reread.

"Tell me you see!" Xerius cried. "Tell me!"

Another one, this one closer to the "WHAT DO YOU SEE?" part.

He will overcome the Scylvendi. He'll humble the People of War! And it seemed to Xerius that he knew these things with impossible certainty. My star enters the Whore, bound by twin portents to the Nail of Heaven . . .
A bird shat upon me!

Xerius keeps trying to reassure himself, still thinking that Anagkë definitely favours him (and Conphas), poor guy.

He dropped his hands to Skeaös' shoulders, and was struck by the magnanimity of the act. How he must love me.

Again, this is just kind of sad. He wants to be that godly Emperor, high above everyone else, but yet yearns for love and adoration. And the old, trusted Counsel, the only one he thinks he knows, the one that surely loves him, is not even who he thinks he is.

Istriya regarded him imperiously. "My age is my own affair. I've no need of fools to remind me."

I love this comeback, I really do. And it can also be read as a sneaky "skin-spy alert". This is certainly something that the human Istriya in her 60s could say, but also a nice remark by a skin-spy who is hundreds of years old, if not more.

Old and frightened! For the first time she looked pedestrian, far from the indomitable, all-knowing matriarch she had always seemed.

Hmm, it's almost as if she's...not herself, isn't it?

The emissary drew back his cowl, pulling it wide over his shoulders. Then he lowered his arms so that the robe fell to the ground, revealing the long saffron cassock he wore beneath. His bald scalp was pale, shockingly so, and his face was dominated by the black sockets beneath his brow.

Enter Moënghus, chessmaster extraordinaire and launcher of a thousand theories.
Much like in the case of Maithanet in chapter 3, the hints to his true identity are very noticeable on a reread.

"Emperor," the sorcerer murmured, "you must leave at once. If this is truly Mallahet, then you're in grave danger. We all are!"

This has been discussed many times in the past, I know, but it's still such a sharp contrast to Kellhus' comments on Moënghus' sorcerous abilities in TTT. To this day, I still have no idea if a) Moënghus-as-Mallahet's reputation was blown out of proportion in the Nansurium, b) Kellhus was underestimating him or c) a bit of both.

Mallahet . . . He had heard that name before, in one of Skeaös' briefings. The one whose arms were scarred like a Scylvendi.

Glaringly obvious on a reread...but then again, on a first read, most people will have completely forgotten this piece of information by the time Cnaiür mentions how Moënghus scarred his arms. I know I did.

Mallahet is second only to Seokti in the Cishaurim. And only then because their Prophetic Law bars non-Kianene from the position of Heresiarch. Even the Cishaurim are fearful of his power!"

Some more exposition on Mallahet's fearsome reputation. And this just made me randomly wonder about something - is Moënghus-as-Mallahet one of the Nine Incandati? I'd assume he is given his reputation, but do we ever get confirmation? I really can't remember.
Checking the wiki, five of the nine are named in PON. It's not implausible that Moënghus and Meppa could be two of the four who are unnamed.

"Well enough, Ikurei. I'll grant you that trifle. The Solitary God knows you Nansur are a stubborn people. I'll even grant that Conphas may prosper where my own son faltered. I'll not underestimate that snake charmer. He was my hostage for four years, remember? But none of this makes Maithanet's Holy War your instrument. You hold no hammer above us."

Skauras is such a great character, I'm really looking forward to his scenes in TWP. And here we learn that Conphas definitely did not learn everything he knows only from Istriya.

"Speechless, Ikurei?" Mallahet's surrogate voice sneered. "Well, choke on this: Maithanet has sealed a pact with the Scarlet Spires. Even now, the Scarlet Magi prepare to join the Holy War. Maithanet already possesses his School, one that dwarfs even your Imperial Saik in both numbers and power. As I said, you are moot."
"Impossible!" Skeaös spat.
Xerius whirled to face the old Counsel, stunned by his audacity.
"What's this now, Ikurei? You let your dogs howl at your table?"
Xerius knew he should be outraged, but such an outburst from Skeaös was . . . unprecedented.

Xerius realizes he's been played by Maithanet after all...and Skeaös is indeed acting very suspicious. Yes, skin-spies, Maithanet is playing you as well, you didn't expect that, now did you?

Skauras' visage flickered then reappeared, as though nodding in and out of some unseen shaft of light. How the old wolf must be laughing.

Obligatory notice of a mention of wolves.

Xerius paused, possessed by a calculating cold. He had always been at his canny best when wroth.

Yet another facet of Xerius' personality, and if I remember correctly, Conphas himself will confirm this in one of his POV sections.

Everything now hinged on his nephew, far to the north. More than ever. The omens . . .

The omens have to be right, or else all of his plans are in ruins. This is what he keeps telling himself in order to sleep at night (literally, there's a mention of how he's having trouble sleeping earlier on, I just didn't quote it because this post was getting too long already).
Next time on the reread, we meet the man, the myth, the legend, Ikurei Conphas himself (and, of course, a certain breaker-of-horses-and-men).



As this is an insanely long post already, I'll comment on what everyone else has said in a later post.

There is a moment in TWP where Akka is stumbling through camp and he thinks he sees a young Esmenet. I'm of the opinion that who he actually saw was Mimara.

A neat theory, but wouldn't she have been well across the Sea by then?  She also never mentions being a part of the Holy War, unless I am forgetting something.

I agree with H here, it was a good theory, but we know that Mimara was taken to High Ainon (more specifically, Carythusal) by the slavers she was sold to and lived there until Esmenet's agents found her years later. I think she never mentions leaving Carythusal during those years.

Shimeh isn't far from there - Kellhus goes on to conquer one of those to right after his anointment in Shimeh. This could be true assuming that Moenghus didn't start his conquest of the Cishaurim in their holy city - which makes sense. He'd want to do his own 'prince of nothing' bit outside the power center. Once he had a proper identiy - Mallahet - he'd eventually make his way to Shimeh. During that time he would have realized he needed a child for TTT and would have sired Maithanet.

The story of Maithanet's birthplace could have been muddled by hearsay, but Nilnamesh and Cingulat  are far enough south to be confused for eachother in rumors.

Kind of like how people in the US know about where Israel is (probably), but the rest of the middle east is just 'a place' ie most people don't know specifically where each country/city is in relation to eachother just that its over here ... somewhere.

Point being, the rumors of Maithanets origins are close enough to what is likely the truth for it not to matter much either way.

I see, so the story wasn't too far off from the truth after all. Thanks for the breakdown of this bit of backstory.

Earwa genetics are a bit Fantastic

They really are. TLEILAXU referred to them as "Bakker genetics" when talking about the Holca in Quorum the other day, and I think that's an apt term. It reminds me of how some people in the ASOIAF community would refer to the very characteristic genetics of some of the Houses in that series as "Martin genetics", so it's a term that I think I'll start using when talking about Eärwan genetics.

I didn't really get the impact of this when I read it initially - not like the revelation in TWP where Kellhus reveals he's of the Few. I think you're right, its largely a clue to his family heritige, along with his other physical attributes. In retrospect, its glaringly obvious that he's related to Kellhus.

Those Bakker genetics, they should clue you in when talking about Dûnyain every time...
Interesting how no one is really sure in-universe (or out of it, really) if being of the Few is a hereditary trait or not (or at least a wholly hereditary trait), and yet we have 6 confirmed cases in 3 generations of the Anasûrimbor family (Moënghus, Kellhus, Maithanet, Koringhus, Serwa and Kelmomas - though it's not clear in the last case if it's Kelmomas or Samarmas that is of the Few, or even both).

Oof. Knowing his last free moments are behind him hurts more because of how it ends.
Poor guy.

It is indeed very tragic in retrospect. Poor Proyas.

The skin-spies have been around for hundreds of years at this point. People, especially those in high station who have unknowingly been in contact with them for centuries, are probably used to this flat-affect effect. And I agree, skin-spies everywhere.

You're right, if they have been doing a good enough job of blending in and not attracting too much attention to themselves, everyone around them would eventually rationalize that "emptiness" as part of the character of whoever they were pretending to be. That's just good old human nature...
They really were playing the long game here, and it really makes me wonder how long skin-spies such as not-Skeaös had been around, but that's something I'll save for my comment in the chapter 5 thread.

Thanks Thelli (I can't decide how to abbreviate your name ). As I said, I think I'll read some sequels. It really seems that everyone agrees that later books are where its at. This kind of goes against my rule, but unlike Prince of Thorns which I very nearly hated, Storm Front had elements that I really liked. I'm tempted to read more, and your encouragement makes it all the  more enticing.

Either Thelli or ToT (or any variation thereof) is fine.
Glad to hear you'll add some sequels to the list further down the road!

Storm Front by Jim Butcher (15)
I picked this one up because I heard from a friend, and also a lot of recs from r/fantasy, that this was a good book.
You know, it was alright. Better than I expected, given that it was both a detective novel and a modern fantasy... neither of which I generally like. The main character, Dresden, was snarky and somewhat interesting. The novel was pretty short, so not a ton of room for character development, but I think it might be worth reading a sequel or two to see where it goes.

Sorry for creeping into this thread, but I just wanted to comment on this particular book/series. I have read all 15 books (a few years back), and while it can't compare to, say, TSA, A Song of Ice and Fire, or The Stone Dance of the Chameleon, it's still a good and very entertaining series. And while the first few books are alright, things do start picking up more after the third or fourth (can't remember exactly, but it's around that point). So I would advise you to try and read at least to the third book in the series (Grave Peril).