- Where is it mentioned that the anyone of the Ordeal believes Nil'giccas isn't king? Serwa mentions Nil'giccas as King, Kellhus clearly perpetuates the lie with Nin'sariccas (probably because not revealing what you know for no good reason is great strategy), Proyas reflects on having sent thousands of ships towards Ishterebinth to treat with Nil'giccas... As far as whatever it is commonly disseminated among humans about the Nonmen, if they know anything, it seems that they know Nil'giccas is King.

My previous post was a terrible slip in which a typed in that sentence the exact opposite of what I meant.  An atrocity of a post.  And yet somehow so...memorable. 

Haha, yeah, I meant why does Kellhus allow the whole Ordeal to believe that the Nonman King is Nil'giccas when Kellhus clearly must know that Cleric is long gone and has been for some time.  That's what I was trying to get at. 

And it's not just that Kellhus could be going along w/ the Emissary's lies because it's more than that as you pointed out...several characters seems to believe that they are privy to the knowledge of who rules in Ishterebinth, but they are deceived.  Why the deception?

I totally do not recall Serwe praying and having hear prayers answered...at least not specifically to gods.  Is that what you meant, locke(snow)?

Were there specific examples of her praying to Onkis or someone?

There's something that still isn't entirely clear to me about Erratics. 

Is going "Wayward" something that is inevitable for all Nonmen but just hasn't happened to the "Intact" yet?  Or is it something that they are susceptible to as a species but only some fall victim to?

I am certainly quite excited to see Ishterebinth in the next book.  The Nonmen, like the Consult, have been a fascinating but mostly off-camera element in the series thus for.

But a question there (man, WLW opened up so many mysteries):  Can Cleric's account of Ishterebinth be trusted?  He tells Achamian that Ishterebinth has turned to Min-Uroikas.  Do we take this literally?  Because he says it pretty clearly and suggests that only pride prevented him from doing it too.

We already knew that some number of Nonmen had gone over to the Consult some time ago, but before this line from Cleric, it seemed to me that we had every reason to believe that there was one still-functioning Nonman society that had not turned to the Consult.

So here are some possibilities, it seems to me:

-Cleric's line shouldn't be taken as scripture...maybe he just meant that a lot of Nonmen had gone over but not everyone.  Or perhaps Cleric has been gone far too long to have anything reliable to say

-Cleric's line should be taken literally...all the Nonmen are trending towards Erratic and have gone over.  Kellhus has sent Moe, Serwa, and Sorweel to Consult agents

-Ishterebinth has been in some kind of uneasy alliance or truce w/ the Consult...their society persists, but they're not warring to destroy the Ark anymore, and now they're genuinely interested in the possibility of the Aspect-Emperor who has accomplished such amazing things

The part I'm caught up on is that it's hard not to take Cleric's line seriously, but it's hard to imagine Kellhus not knowing that Ishterebinth was lost to the Consult.

Thoughts?

Sorry, Trisk.

But do us all a favour, please, and read all of Frank Herbert's Dune books .

Veering off topic, but I was not all that impressed with the first one.  I think I have to be fair to Herbert and realize that it was written decades ago and was probably incredible for its time, but I didn't get too strong of an urge to read on.  I do have a copy of book 2, so perhaps I'll summon the courage to persist.

It does certainly seem that one ought to know both their Tolkien and their Herbert to fully appreciate Bakker.

Y'all are blowing my mind on the snakes.  But I must offer one bit of walk-back...the line about the asp's eyes lighting up could easily be interpreted as just the reflection of other light....it doesn't necessarily mean that sorcery rung through the snake. 

That said...why didn't Moe have his snakes with him?  I don't know why I haven't pondered this, but all of the sudden it stands out as a potentially huge moment.  Moe has been waiting for Kellhus for decades and his snakes just weren't up for it??  Bizarre.  Is that an authorial mistake, or is there something to be gleaned from this?

I'm still confused on what to make of this scene.


I do think it's pretty clear that Kellhus just used some kind of trick to hypnotize Akka, but to what end?  Is it so that he can convince Seswatha to allow Akka to teach Kellhus the Gnosis?  That seems like perhaps what we're supposed to think, but despite how difficult it is to ply Mandati, we don't need to believe that Kellhus speaking to Seswatha was necessary.  Nautzera is willing to let Akka teach Kellhus the Gnosis. 

Another thing I wonder about...

It's been posited that Kellhus has been guiding Akka's mission in the Aspect-Emperor books.  I don't think we know this 100%, but it's been thrown out there.  Could this "conversation" between Kellhus and Seswatha have provided Kellhus some means of manipulating the dreams?   

Nice random thoughts, Ciogoli.  This is a perfect place for me to throw out a question I'd considered starting a thread for which is basically that I want predictions about the Three Seas storylines in the next book.

Part of why I want to ask is that I have practically no idea what's going to happen.

Contrast that to the Great Ordeal and Slog storylines:  we don't know exactly how things will play out, obviously, but it seems we have a good general idea.  The Great Ordeal will continue its march into the ancient north.  Sorweel, Lil' Moe, and Serwa will go to Ishterebinth, Akka and Mimara will explore Ishual before likely moving on, etc...

I'm hugely invested in the details here, but it seems like all of those bits of framework are fairly safe assumptions. 

But what's going to happen w/ the Three Seas?  I have no idea.  Does Fanayal take Momemn?  If so, what happens to Esmenet?  What does creepy little Kel do?  What is the significance of Meppa?  What conclusions for Zeum does Malo come to?  Do the Hundred get more involved?  Does the Three Seas start to culturally move on as if the Great Ordeal doesn't exist?