Quote from: Blackstone on April 08, 2016, 03:04:16 pm

The parts you point out about the voice and mother are, for me, proof that the voice in Kelmomas's head is Samarmas. The voice speaks just like a child that is devoted with the kind of intensity and intellect that only a half Dunyain child could have. It thinks "mother" raises them above animals, because just like Kel, the voice views Esmi as divine. It was offended by the "fat man" because his words disturbed Esmi.

I go back and forth.  Sometimes I agree, other's I have a lot of doubt it would actually be Sammy.

Quote from: profgrape on April 08, 2016, 03:08:45 pm

Another Chapter 5 tidbit from the Kel/Inrilatas conversation:

Quote

"I... I don't understand, [Kelmomas] sad.  "You could leave this room... anytime you wished!  Mother would release you -- I know it.  You just need to follow the rules."

His brother paused, looked at him as if searching for evidence of kinship beyond the fact of their blood.  "Tell me, little brother, what rules the rule?"

Something is wrong... the voice warned.

The "something", I think, is the realization that Inrilatas knows about Kelmomas' ambitions -- to become the God.  It demonstrates the depth of Dunyain manipulation in a way they we really only see with Kellhus in PON.

I wonder if Kel even realizes the full extent though.  Like, is he sort of unwittingly exacting the voice's plan?  Sometimes it seems like he kind of is, in doing everything for Esmenet's affection.  The voice is after much more than that.

I'm not so sure that's entirely Kel's motivation. Sometimes his love seems quite controlling and abusive. IIRC he thinks about how easy it would be to kill Esmi.

Wilshire the few of us that can see the truth that Meppa is a direct result of what went down in Kyudea do not have to sparse words. Darkness clearly equals blindness. You and Blackstone can set a wallow in your denial, come up with crazy counter arguments. Locke, H and I are very comfortable knowing that when TUC is finished we will have prophesied the enigma that is Meppa. Lol, I love this back and forth. All in good nature her at SA, which is why I love this place. Except for that Blackstone, who will not heed my wisdom. Lol. Cheers. I really do have some more thoughts to add but have to run to work.

HA! We shall see, my friend. We shall see.

Quote from: profgrape on April 06, 2016, 10:01:18 pm

I think the question, MSJ, is that if Meppa is product of Moe's plans, what is the goal?  I'm totally with you in that there are potential signs.  But what's the motive?

The only thing I can think of is to keep the empire from totally destroying itself. To keep some sense of stability while the Great Ordeal is away.

ETA: An eventuality that Kellhus has admitted to having no answer for. What happens ......happens.

But why would Moe care? I see where Kellhus is coming from with this: he can't both keep the empire together and destroy the Consult.

Yes, we are miles upon miles apart on this issue. One, don't slide me into Meta-Moe group, because I don't believe that has to be the case. We are told over and over that Moe has spent 30 years and he would be powerful beyond all imagining. Well he wasn't. He messed up by choosing the Psukhe. Yet, he is Dunyain. Do you think he just gave up and said' "I'll have to call my son, and that's that.".  No, he was plumbing the secrets of Earwa, went to the Outside, and searched for contradiction of what comes before determines what comes after.

Yes, I agree that we are miles apart on this. I'm not trying to pigeonhole you, I am using the term Meta-Moe for any theory that supports Moe have a significant influence in the second trilogy. And yes, I think he had to call his son because he painted himself into too much of a corner to do it alone. If he had the power to completely control the Cishaurim, he could have convinced the Fanim to declare a holy war against the Inrithi and asserted domination that way.

The meeting. What piece of information does Moe give to Kellhus? Huh? None. Every question is met and rebuffed to Moe's ends not Kellhus's. It was a test, plain and simple. Every foot step in Kyudea was conditioned and Kellhus tells us this. I guess the other things I mentioned you just chalk up to Kellhus being a younger Dunyain, and let's just move on. Well fine, you can ignore the clues, I choose not to.

I'm not choosing to ignore clues. We have both read the same passage and determined that there are clues. We just disagree as to what those clues point to

In TJE we come to find out that chorae can do other, wondrous things thought impossible even by Akka. You see it as being tied to the JE, where I see it being explained to us by the JE. The chorae is the chorae regardless, and can do all the wonderous things as long as you know these things. Imho, the JE is used as a way to show us what is possible. What could happen if only you knew.

Maybe it's not because of the JE itself, but in my opinion, if a chorae negates sorcery, then sorcery should not be able to manipulate or chorae or take place within one's sphere of influence.

Does this make Moe, Meppa? Again I think so, but not in the sense that Meppa knows he is Moe. The amnesiac Water -Bearer is too dues ex machina, unless there is an explanation behind him. And honestly, I doubt that we'll ever be told straight out that that is the case. Like anything Bakker, he leaves a trail of breadcrumbs and expects you to put the pieces together.  And hell, Kellhus has only wondered the wilderness for what, 25 years? Lol.

This I think is the heart of where we differ. Since sorcery is a known quantity on Earwa, I don't think a lone sorcerer (the las Cishaurim!) showing up is deus ex machina in the slightest, but I think the appearance of a character we assume to be dead would be. But that's me. I am glad we have this board to hash out these ideas on, because it has changed my opinion on a lot of things in these books

The appendix lists Kuydea as another possible place of ascension. It's either Shimeh on the spot that Esme gives birth to Kayûtas or where Moe dies.

I don't think Meppa is Moe, I think he is linked in some way though.

One thing though does Meppa actually have eyes behind his Geordi LaForge(engineer out of star trek) mask? I was reading a segment and it said his eyes hid behind the silver band. Might just be a turn of phrase though.

Ha ha. Nice!

Do you have a page number for the "eyes" reference?

Quote from: Blackstone on April 05, 2016, 02:41:03 pm

Quote from: themerchant on April 05, 2016, 02:18:47 pm

Just a quck thought, as not started full re-read yet just picking it up and reading a bit at random in the bath.

However i noticed  the Witch in TJE (the one masquerading as a devotee of Yawter) is using analagoic sorcery. Not Gnostic like the Compact. Judging by the spell she casts which is weird.

Yes, I mentioned that above. I definitely noticed that. It also describes her as improbably young, which would mean she's probably young enough to have joined after they got the gnosis (I'm assuming the Compact is a group of witches that Kellhus got together and said, start a school, and I'll give you the gnosis) so should be a gnostic witch and not an anagogic witch. So to be honest, I am going to assume this was a mistake in the writing.

Do you think there's some significance to it?

Sorry for duplication. Just so often i read something and then forget any significant thoughts I may have had. So typed it out quick without checking.

Mistake is the most likely option (unfortunately)

Another faction working for Maith and his brothers(we hear about in WLW), as a bit later/earlier the Mother Superior mentions he has known about her for a long time.

Mistake most likely though

No worries at all! I am sure I've done the same. I'm glad someone else thought it was interesting.

Quote from: Aural on April 05, 2016, 10:54:39 pm

Doubt Bakker would make a mistake like this. This would be evidence that she's not one of the Swayal.

Yeah, I mean, we don't know if there are other witches besides the Swayal, presumably there are?  Risking a Gnostic sorcerer seems like a bad idea anyway.

Authors make mistakes all they time. He's a man not a Dunyain. [Edit: For instance, we are told countless times that even getting close to a chorae will salt a Quya, but the captain (carrying a chorae) is constantly standing right next to Cleric muttering in his ear].

Why would they train one of the few as an anagogic witch? They are a limited resource, it would make sense to make them all as powerful as possible.

Yes everything in that post is true. Its basically a summary  of Moe's arc throughout PoN. Answer me this. Why does Meppa have no memory? And, he's not lying we get this through his dialogue. Fayanal says that he is a gift of the Solitary God and he was found wondering in the desert. He has a ocean of water, Water=passion something Cnaüir is full of. Another clue I get that Meppa is a result of what happened in Kyudea, is Cnaüir saying over and over in TTT, "what am I forgetting". Foreshadowing. If Meppa is this so called disciple of Moe, why is his memory lost and why?

I am not of a mind that Moe is directing events in TAE, rather there as support for what his son is doing. If you recall Moe basically quizzed Kellhus throughout their meeting. Then let him self be stabbed, defended off 3 skin-spies, and waited on Cnaüir to come with his chorae. What does he say to Cnaüir? I need your strength  Nayu, I need you to heal me. We see in TJE that chorae can be used for more than killing sorcery. We have several mentions of souls being transferred. Hey, I am not saying it's 100% likely that Meppa is the result of Kyudea, but there is enough evidence in the book to make it a possibility.

There is discussion at this very moment about why Kellhus is leaving the empire to ruin. No other choice? Most likely. You think Moe might have seen this also? What if Kellhus was wrong about Moe joining the Consult? He's been wrong before, Locke has a great post about it somewhere around here. Maybe Moe knew that without his help, if Kellhus did indeed defeat the Consult, there wouldn't be anything left for anyone to come back to. I could be right, I could be wrong. But, there is plenty of room for it to be something other than deus ex machina, if I'm right.

Why doesn't Meppa have a memory? I'm not sure what the answer is to that. I don't think my theory answers every question. I'm just answering things that can definitely be defended with text. But the biggest stretch for an answer (IMO) is that Moe merged his soul with Cnauir and inhabited another body with their soul sandwich. Maybe it's just in there for some intrigue. We may never find out. Or we may find it's something we never considered. Cnauir saying "what am I forgetting" is not foreshadowing for the Moe/Cnauir-soul-meld-quantum-leap. It's just Cnauir being batshit crazy...like we've seen all along.

I think it's a HUGE assumption that Moe "let" himself get stabbed. He was facing a younger Dunyain who still had eyesight. Moe was at a huge physical disadvantage. The whole, "I need your strength" sounds exactly like what someone who had just been stabbed and weakened by a fight would say. I don't recall that he fought off 3 skin spies, but say he did, every action is draining more strength, and after fighting off three, he still has to contend with Cnauir and more skin spies (at least one other), so he uses some Dunyain subterfuge to try and get out of the situation. And Cnauir has direct thoughts AFTER zapping Moe with the chorea. If there were some sort of soul melding and transfer, it would have happened as or before Cnauir rolled the chorea over Moe's face (which everything we are told says would kill Moe). So I don't think the combination of the two embodied by Meppa is possible. If Meppa were just Moe (a soul transfer that doesn't have enough evidence...soul to an inanimate object is too different in my opinion) then perhaps totally losing his memory reprogrammed him enough to be "full of water." But the Moe/Meppa would not have most of the Dunyain advantages. The physical perfection and prowess would be missing. I think you could make the argument that the intellect would be missing because of the Meppa body's human brain.

Can Chorae do things other than negate sorcery? Yes. Mimara does some weird Chorae inversion thing. But she is one of the few, not an actual sorcerer or witch. It's a completely different thing. For Moe to complete a soul melding and transfer, he'd have to use sorcery (and like I said, I don't think the psukhe is sophisticated enough for that) while being a foot away from something that negates sorcery. This is the exact opposite of everything Bakker has told us.

As far as Kellhus leaving the empire to crumble, I think that was the only choice. It's go big or go home when the world is in the balance and he couldn't leave enough resources behind to ensure the empire stayed together.

...and back to Meppa.

There is an assumption by a lot of people that Moe is some sort of super user whose influence is still driving events in Earwa. I think this is unlikely.

Moe's actual power: We have two perspectives on Moe's power. 1) He is weak as a Chisaurim (from Kellhus). 2) He is the ultimate Chisaurim (From Xerius's meeting with Mallahet and this is assuming Moe=Mallahet, which seems most probable). To me, it seems most likely that if anyone were fooled, then it would be the world-born men of the Nansur and NOT an actual Dunyain. I suspect it's possible that Moe did wield considerable power, however, I think that power was political and not arcane in nature. Case in point: The Scarlet Spires are often referred to as the most powerful school in the Three Seas, yet we know that they are anagogic sorcerers and their arcane power is nothing in comparison to that of the Mandate. Therefore, this power is either political in nature or a reference to their number of sorcerers of rank. It logically leads that the Nansurium's fear of Mallahet/Moe is fear of his political power which is in turn gained from his ability to influence as a Dunyain. His very words may turn Xerius's heart. Beyond that, isn't it Skaeos that says Mallahet is dangerous? Skaeos who we all know is a skin spy. If it is Skaoes that says this, then it leads that his "kind" would be terrified of Moe anyhow. There can be little doubt that the Consult knows anyone that tries to follow him disappears.

The actual power of the Psukhe: We are told time and again in the series that the Psukhe is the least powerful of the sorceries. I know that such a thing as an unreliable narrator exists, but it is generally considered a cheap tactic in literature, and strikes me as something a writer of Bakker's caliber would try to avoid. I chalk up contradictions in the glossary to mistakes by Bakker or things that he just wanted to change rather than the result of unreliable information from narrators/Threes Seas historians. At the very least, the Psukhe is described as being the least refined or the sorceries, a wooden cudgel to the gnosis's steel sword. And, as I said above, Moe was weak in the water. For argument's sake, if he were strong in the water, I still don't believe the Psukhe is sophisticated enough to perform a soul transfer within the magic-nullifying circle of a chorea.

All that being said, Moe's power was too limited for him to still be directing events 20 years after his death. He chose the wrong path as a captive of the Scylvendi, and he wasn't able to deviate from that path. By the time he made it to the Utemot, he likely had no idea magic existed or that it was something he had to account for. He scarred his arms so that he could travel across Scylvendi lands. Realizing that this would make him unwelcome in the Nansur, he picked the only logical path and went south to the Fanim. There, he discovered magic. He had no choice as a Dunyain but to dominate his circumstances and learn magic. At this point he had no way of knowing that the Psukhe was the least powerful magic as he'd likely met no one to tell him otherwise. He blinds himself, believing it would make him more powerful in the Psukhe, and probably discounted the notion that it took passion to carry the most water (just as Bakker made us think that gods may or may not be real until we learn for sure they are in TJE). Blinding himself takes away some of his Dunyain ability (If it was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind), so he is left with weak magic and weakened Dunyain powers. He is still able to orchestrate the events leading to the Holy War, but a lot of that is done through proxy (Maithanet).

I'm saying all this to point out that I don't think it is possible that Meppa=Moe (or is a vessel for Moe's soul) and while I think it is probable that Meppa is one of Moe's former disciples, for the current story I think it is unimportant. I don't think Moe is still directing events, either from beyond the grave or through the sheer intricacy of the plans he laid 20 years previous. Meppa is in the story as a foil for Psatma. I don't think his previous involvement with Moe has any bearing on what is happening in the AE. So the real question is not "Who is Meppa," but rather, "Can Meppa stop Yatwer?" He is, after all, the only one left to defend his faith. Fanayal seems more interested in plowing fields and building an empire.

My 3 cents.