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Messages - Blackstone

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196
The Almanac: TAE Edition / Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 2 [Spoilers]
« on: April 05, 2016, 01:43:05 pm »
Yeah, since reading the WLW the first time I have thought he was willing to concede the empire to chaos after he marched on Golgotterath. I agree that the empire is just a means to the GO. I don't yet know why he is trying to save humanity. I feel like the last we clearly saw from his POV in TTT, was that he wanted to save humanity. He killed Moe because he believed Moe would eventually side with the Consult and thus destroy humanity. Since we haven't seen anything to in the AE to contradict his goal of saving mankind, it's hard to assume he is doing anything otherwise. I think the real surprise will be in how he fails and what implications that failure has.

197
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Meppa is X (II)
« on: April 04, 2016, 10:04:02 pm »
You don't need to grasp the heart do you?


You do to learn Mandati Gnostic Sorcery. The Mangaecca, presumably, do not need Seswatha's heart to train another gnostic sorcerer for the consult.

It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.

Well, the logical answer is that the Consult taught it.  Following what stands to be logical to me is, Moe somehow ensouls what will become the Simas-agent.  He wipes it's memory after the fact and sends it back to the Consult, knowing that they will certainly send it into the Mandate, which will allow them to burrow deeper, meaning that Kellhus' ascent will be made easier (the Mandate being discredited is to his benefit in acquiring the Gnosis/not being recognized as the Harbinger sooner/less Mandate agents around).

The Consult get their gift, the Simas agent is taught enough Gnosis by the Consult to mark it's soul, then it replaces Simas at some point.  Moe wouldn't know which one of them was, but Maith is quick enough to pick out the right one at the moment anyway.  I doubt the Simas-agent would need to work too much sorcery anyway.

Whoa, whoa whoa, hold your horses. The Consult did not teach Simas the Gnosis. The only person to learn the Gnosis without grasping the heart is Kellhus. You have to grasp Seswatha's heart to learn the Gnosis.

I do believe the Consult could have taught Simas the gnosis. The question is whether the Mangaecca style of the gnosis is different than the Sohonc's (Mandate's) style. If so, anyone who witnessed Simas using the "weird" gnosis would know something was up.

The more I think of it, the more I am of the opinion that the Consult would have had to plant a "child" skin spy with the Mandate. Just teaching an adult skin spy the gnosis (which from what we know should be impossible anyway) would not leave it marked enough to pass as someone using powerful sorcery for his entire life.

198
The Almanac: TAE Edition / Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
« on: April 04, 2016, 09:17:41 pm »
But Sammy is not a mute without any intellect. He is just lacking in that department. He understands what's going on around him, can make choices for his self, shows emotion. You could very well be right. I just seem to think Kel is being used by someone (a God, Ajokli IMHO). Therefore, what in the world would Sammy be using him for? The Voice has an agenda, whatever that may be. What would be Sammy's agenda, and what makes you think he would have one? I agree with H, that when the healer was doing his thing, it gave an opportunity for an entity to slide in, so to say.

But the agenda in the voice doesn't seem to be that different from Kel's own agenda. The voice never convinces him to do something he doesn't want to do. It reads much more like two brothers talking to each other. My opinion :)

199
The Almanac: TAE Edition / Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
« on: April 04, 2016, 07:46:05 pm »
That was explained when they was separated, iirc. And if the voice does not sound like one of a n idiot, no? I've thought Sammy  for the longest also,it's just too simple. The text certainly make you think it's Sammy. But why would a dim-wit want to kill people and such? Its hard to explain what I mean here. Sammy's nature does not match up to that of the Voice.

I don't think I am being clear. The voice in Kel's head does not sound like a dummy, because the part of Sammy's soul/intellect/whatever that would have given him the brilliance of a half Dunyain, was ripped out of him when the twins were separated. Their souls/intellects/whatevers were joined together, the healer slave "healed" them, but in so doing broke them apart like a wishbone. Kell walked away with the bigger piece of the wishbone.
The fact that the voice doesn't sound like a dim-whit lends credence to my argument.

200
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Meppa is X (II)
« on: April 04, 2016, 07:41:44 pm »
This all I have left to say on the subject. Meppa is a combination of Moe and Cnaüir's passion. You don't have to like it. You can argue against it til your hearts content. Make excuses, reason, whatever you like. When it is revealed I will simply post my PayPal  account and you may put a week salary in it for simply not seeing the truth. Thank you, and have a great day. Lol. :)
Ha! Me thinks the one with the crackpot theory is the one that needs to make excuses ;)

201
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Meppa is X (II)
« on: April 04, 2016, 07:40:28 pm »
It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.

 

202
The Almanac: TAE Edition / Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
« on: April 04, 2016, 06:33:12 pm »
I'm confused as to why everyone is questioning where Kelmomas's "voice" is coming from. I admit, mine is a skeptical heart, but when Kel kills Samarmas, the voice says "why did you wait so long..." to kill me. The voice, to me, is obviously Samarmas's intellect, which was trapped in Kel's head when their souls were sundered by the healer slave.

Did anyone else find it interesting that the Swayali who Pstama "unmasked" in the temple was an anagogic witch and not gnostic?


Well if it's Ajokli, like I believe, he is the trickster. Like playing g tricks, and tricking Kel into thinking it's Sammy.

If that's the case, and it's not Samarmas's intellect, why did Kel's identical twin turn out to be an idiot?

203
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Meppa is X (II)
« on: April 04, 2016, 06:23:52 pm »
I'm not a believer in coincidence in real-life.  I am definitely not a believer in coincidence in Earwa though.

I find it plausible that the Simas-agent's creation had something to do with Moe.  Of course, it's as likely that it was some other kind of "happy accident."  The only "clue" that we get is how fortuitous it is that Maith gets to "unmask" Simas to get the Mandate on their side.

I'm going to agree with the "happy accident" on the part of the Consult. They seem to be blundering around with the Tekne. As far as we know, the skin spies are the first weapons race that has been created since the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars. It seems more plausible to me that one of the Consult was tinkering around and did it on accident than Moe giving a skin spy a soul. We have more evidence to support the Consult (who once before grafted sorcery) than Moe (who to our knowledge does not have the ability to transmit souls from a person to a skin spy).

I think it probable that Moe learned of the skin spy through his skin spy interrogations and told Maithanet about it, but I don't think it would have been necessary to draw the Mandate to Kellhus's side since he was so obviously the fulfillment of the Celmomian Prophecy (an Anasurimbor shows up and is able to discern the first evidence of the Consult's existence in 300 years). Why would they need the extra nudge of Maithanet showing them a skin spy in their midst? So that makes me think the whole thing was part of Moe's failed plan to take control of the Three Seas himself.

204
The Almanac: TAE Edition / Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
« on: April 04, 2016, 06:06:33 pm »
I'm confused as to why everyone is questioning where Kelmomas's "voice" is coming from. I admit, mine is a skeptical heart, but when Kel kills Samarmas, the voice says "why did you wait so long..." to kill me. The voice, to me, is obviously Samarmas's intellect, which was trapped in Kel's head when their souls were sundered by the healer slave.

Did anyone else find it interesting that the Swayali who Pstama "unmasked" in the temple was an anagogic witch and not gnostic?

205
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Meppa is X (II)
« on: April 04, 2016, 04:09:53 pm »
Simas was altered by Moe as his way of conditioning the Mandate to the TTT by having Maitha turn up and expose it, instantly removing all question from their mind in the same way Kellhus saying his name and talking about dreams did to Maitha. The added bit about only Kellhus being able to mine them for knowledge strengthens the argument.

Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.
I don't think that strengthens the argument that Moe altered Simas, only the idea that Moe discovered Simas and alerted Maithanet, who then used the revelation to help bring in the Mandate. Since Kellhus was already fulfilling their prophecy, I don't think they needed much prodding.

I'm not sure what you mean about "saying his name and talking about dreams did to Maitha." Can you elaborate?

206
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Meppa is X (II)
« on: April 04, 2016, 02:45:35 pm »
Intersting bit there, but I dont agree with that conclusions. It is, I think, an after effect of the Cants of Compulsion. She felt that Aurang's thoughts where her own, his desires her, and so when she remembers the incident it appears that his soul inhabited hers, whereas it was really just his memories and passions.

As for chorae, we know there is something more to them when Mimara wields then through the Judging Eye. She did something, as far as Akka knew, that was entirely impossible, i.e unique and unprecedented. Not something other's could accomplish - especially someone like Moenghus so deeply rooted in reality, and also not having the JE.

Yea,  I understand its a result of the cants of compulsion. But,  doesn't Kellhus say that Aurang didn't want to posses Esme any longer than need be, because more of his memories would have went to Esme (or something like that).

As for the chorae, remeber when Cnaüir touches Moe with it, he says it seems as if the God is loooking at him through Moe's eyes. Mimara sees that it is try a Tear of God. I just believe there is more there. Can I give you a explanation of why?  No. But,  man I really like @the merchant's idea that the creation of chorae might involve a soul,  and would really make sense, since as he said the each have different flavors. We don't know how a soul is trapped in a Waathi Doll, but if souls are connected to chorae that would seem very plausible way to make a Waathi Doll.

As for Kellhus extracting info from skin-spies, I don't remeber him getting any useful info from them. If someone could quote that for me, I'd appreciate it. Because, I can't recall that to be the case.

I reread that bit about Moe and Cnauir at the end of TTT the other day and that stuck out to me too. I think this is the only time we have read a description of someone choraed up close, and I assume that this is just a description of the process as seen from a foot away. I think the bit about a "god" is just how Cnauir, who is completely obsessed with Moe (and I daresay worships him in some way) would think about it. I think it was poetic license on Bakker's part and not meant as some sort of clue.

As for Kellhus interrogating skin spies, MSJ was right and I was wrong in our earlier posts. I found a part in TJE where they have captured the black-skinned skin spy, and it is mentioned that without Kellhus there, they wouldn't be able to get anything useful out of it. Since Maithanet is standing right beside Esmi when she thinks this, then the implication is that Kellhus CAN get information from them and Maithanet cannot. Therefore, it seems unlikely that Maithanet was able to find out on his own that Simas was a skin spy at the end of TTT. However, there is always the possibility that this was a mistake by Bakker.

207
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Meppa is X (II)
« on: April 04, 2016, 02:38:23 pm »
Quote
I think it would ruin the story for me if a lot of "dead" characters turned up alive or if Moe turned out to be the guy pulling everyone's strings. But that's me.

Well, Moe was certainly pulling all the strings in PoN. And, as I said, I think its a possibility with enough circumstantial evidence for Meppa to be a product of what went down in Kyudea. Either way I can live with it. And,  I see your and others reasoning behind it also.
Oh yeah, I definitely not trying to dispute that Moe orchestrated the first holy war (Scarlet Spires assassination, planting Maithanet as Shriah, etc), I'm just saying I think it would be disappointing for me as a reader if a) his conditioning was now driving the GO, or b) he is somehow still alive and still pulling the strings.


208
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Meppa is X (II)
« on: April 02, 2016, 03:02:33 am »
I agree that it is the cant of compulsion vs Aurang's soul taking over her body.
No, Maithenet said they learned of Simas through their interrogation of skin-spies. And, if Simas didn't have a soul with aMark, well he wouldn't have lasted very long as a top member of the Mandate.

And, I would say that the chorae is probably what made the soul transfer possible there in Kyudea. At least had something to do with it.

Touche in regards to the mark. You definitely make a point there.

So if Maithanet says he found out about Simas from interrogating skin spies, what makes you think he learned about it from Moe instead?

That seems to be counter to everything we know about chorae. I think if chorae are capable of doing anything other than their stated abilities, then Bakker should have given us some sort of clue to that. I realize Mimara does some weird stuff with one, but nothing that makes me think a chorae, which would negate any sorcery Moe tried to use with Cnauir holding it that close to his face, would help a sorcerous soul transfer.

Well, how do Dunyain lie? With truth. We learn it's near impossible for even Kellhus to exact a shred of information from the skin-spies.  What makes you think Maithenet would be able to? Who had a dungeon in Kyudea with neuropuncture, and 30 years to find a way to exact that info? So, that leads me to think that Maithenet only learned what Moe told him.

Well, RSB does give a clue that there is more to chorae than just killing sorcerors. Cil-Aujus, and Mimara holding the gates, and repelling a Wight. The wight wasn't of sorcerous nature. It was a ghost.

And Blackstone, its a reach that Meppa is Moe and what I call Cnaüir's passion tied together. Because that was waht Moe was lacking, passion. It makes sense, since we come to find out the Meppa's Water is like an ocean. Its more just wishful thinking on my part. Yet, I'm hopeful that one day I can say, I told you so.

Eta: and we come to find out in TJE that skin-spies don't reveal anything. They have to use neuropuncture just to simulate pain when flaying them. So that even more evidence that Moe created that ensouled skin-spy.

But it seems just as likely that Moe would tell Maithanet how to extract information from a skin spy (I'm not disputing the two are linked). It says very clearly in TJE that Kellhus can get information from them.

I think it would ruin the story for me if a lot of "dead" characters turned up alive or if Moe turned out to be the guy pulling everyone's strings. But that's me :D

209
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Dunyain Weakness
« on: April 01, 2016, 05:46:38 pm »
Yeah passion akin to religious fervor is how I read it.

I don't think the mechanics of the Psuhke allow for a meta- prefix. Its just stronger via more passion. Its not like you can add a 3rd inutteral string of more passion-y words.

That is probably correct.

210
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Meppa is X (II)
« on: April 01, 2016, 05:44:59 pm »
No, Maithenet said they learned of Simas through their interrogation of skin-spies. And, if Simas didn't have a soul with aMark, well he wouldn't have lasted very long as a top member of the Mandate.

And, I would say that the chorae is probably what made the soul transfer possible there in Kyudea. At least had something to do with it.

Touche in regards to the mark. You definitely make a point there.

So if Maithanet says he found out about Simas from interrogating skin spies, what makes you think he learned about it from Moe instead?

That seems to be counter to everything we know about chorae. I think if chorae are capable of doing anything other than their stated abilities, then Bakker should have given us some sort of clue to that. I realize Mimara does some weird stuff with one, but nothing that makes me think a chorae, which would negate any sorcery Moe tried to use with Cnauir holding it that close to his face, would help a sorcerous soul transfer.

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