Quote from: Deustriplo on July 15, 2017, 08:23:16 pm

When Mimara revealled she was pregnant I always thought that the father was Khellus...
There is a passage in TJE that made me think this. Will look it up at some point.
Also if Esmenet was such a viable breeding partner her daughter would have similar chances to be one as well.
"waste not, want not..."

Truth Shines...

She claimed Kellhus was her child's father to the Captain, but that doesn't seem to have been a viable possibility. Timing aside, there's nothing in the text to suggest that Kellhus and Mimara ever had sex.

Still an interesting thought, and it is true that a daughter of Esmenet could likely have higher chances of giving birth to a half-Dûnyain child than any random worldborn woman.

That was not the passage that made me think she was carrying Khellus baby. ;-) Its something it happens when she is trying to convince Akka to teach her just before their journey begins. I will look it up one of these days.

Truth Shines...

[Sorry for opening a new thread, but I was not sure where to put this one]

A few very disconnected thoughts in the aftermath of completing my first reading of TUC

I haven’t read any comment by anyone so far, so this reflects almost only my own understanding or misunderstanding of the novel. I obviously may have lost one or more threads while reading, together with my sanity, who knows

First thought: WTF?

Then: I was one of the people who loved The Prince of Nothing for the way it created a kind of Silmarillionesque world building with an ages-spanning history. I loved the philosophy imbued in it, as well as the mysteries of the Dunyain and the No-God. I am one of those people who prefers The Silmarillion (or Tolkien’s legendarium in all his iterations) to The Lord of the Rings that Bakker once stated the book was written for.

The Prince of Nothing was for me, The Aspect-Emperor not that much.

The age-spanning history has been put in the background putting more emphasis on the role of the Gods and the Outside. Now in PoN, the Gods did not strike me as particularly real, but just as interpretation of the Outside, most likely an incorrect one. In TAE there is a dramatic change of tone in this, with the Gods acting directly on the World, especially in the Psatma/White-luck Warrior storyline, which I pretty much hated. It quite killed my suspension of disbelief, given the image I had of Earwa up to PoN. the Gods come to the fore, but twenty years before some of them were hardly mentioned: Yatwer is never named in tDtCB, 3 times in WP (twice in almost random lists of Gods) and six times in TTT but only in the Glossary. In TAE she has become the main God of the Three-seas, and with the power to alter reality no less. No mention of the Narindar, the Judging Eye and the White Luck as well in PON, but now they are everywhere. This I felt has a massive retconning of a sort/  Anyway I enjoyed the parts I found less marred by this issue, such as the Akka/Mimara storyline, the trek to Saugliash and Ishual, the visit to Ishterebinth.

Now let’s get to The Unholy Consult.

Well for me as I said the Inchoroi and all the backstory up to the Fist Apocalypse
 was supercool, so this having the Dunyain “conquering” the Consult was quite a letdown. You have the fascination of a multi-millennial conspiracy crafted with great care along 5-6 books, and now these suckers of monks the overtake it in couple of years and a couple of chapters? It was a letdown for me, though I guess it sort of makes sense, it is just my personal taste. Reducing the dreadful Inchoroi and the fascinating Shauriatas/Shauriatis (can we decide his name by the way?) to puppets easily disposed of was a waste of great material I think.

And the super smart all conquering Kellhus? Deus it bring his own suicide consciously? Once in Dagliash he recognises that Dunyain are behind the Consult and then what is does? He goes back and collects Esmenet and Kelmomas, the makers of his defeat? He doesn’t notices twice the peculiar power of his son? Does he let his wife free Kelmomas without him even knowing it? We cannot know, since nothing is written from his perspective, maybe he is still plotting everything from the second rotten head. What of Sorweel chorae? Nobody noticed that one so realising that Kelmomas was saying the truth? What of Serwa love for Sorweel? Not a word is spoken of it.

What of Achamian dreams? What of the Inverse Fire, on which everyone mused for years, just to have it shrugged off in few paraphs...I guess it is unavoidable that the fascination of things seen fare away cannot survive a closer look, but Golgotterath as described in the few scenes of Seswata and Cayuti in TTT was much more dreadful and mysterious than the one seen here in TUC...I suspect there are many pits to be esplored undergound....


On the plus side, I enjoyed most of the journey of Agongorea (pretty crazy), the battle for Golgotterath and Skuthula at the Gate, the Nomen appearing at the end, and I found supercool the Resumption chapter. Blood chilling. I think that in the end the conclusion makes sense in hindsight, and I obviously look forward to a coda of one or two books, and to many more books from RSB.

Overall mixed feelings.
When I reached the beginning of Chapter 14, I wrote down 21 question without answer I had from the previous 6 books that I hope would have been answered in the last 200 pages of the series. Well I have to check, but I fear only a small minority of those got an answer of any sort. Very little for a book that was supposed to solve the greatest issues of the series. I will publish that list later on, probably

Thanks if you read this nonsense rant.

Well said. That is exactly how I feel about the two series.

Truth Shines...

The World is shut to the Outside!
No saviours...

Truth Shines...

Quote from: Deustriplo on July 14, 2017, 09:41:47 am

The tale is done.

Nooooooo

Besides the fact that he pretty clearly states that there is gonna be sequels (and I think he is actively writing them too?) I don't think Bakker can let go of Second Apocalypse - I am gonna go out on a limb, and assume that the people who read his non-SA novels are almost entirely made of SA fans, so if his writing endevaours are to continue and prosper (to their relative degree, at least), he'll need more Second Apocalypse to keep his fans together

I am sorry. I should have been clearer.
The tale is done... For me. ;-)

Truth Shines...

Here we go...
The tale is done.
Many, many seasons ago, when I first picked up the The Darkness That Comes Before I was enthralled. I found it a fascinating read. One that cemented Bakker as one of my all time favourite writers on par with Philip K. Dick. I embarked on the journey of The Coming of the Second Apocalypse. These books will forever be some of my favourites.
The world, the insights into human culture and habits, into our needs and wants, into philosophy, even metaphysics, fascinated me and I know I will return to read these books over and over again through my life and follow these characters tracks time and time again.

The tale of Khellus. That is what these books were about for me as a reader at their core. He was what captured me more than anything else. And in a way I am content to know what lies at the end of the journey. The journey he took after the first steps into the wilderness, out of Ishual so many years ago now.

TDTCB and TWP are my favourite books of this magnificent tale. The Aspect Emperor series did not capture my imagination as much as the Prince of Nothing did. But I digress.

TUC was the end of a journey for me. And even though it gave me closure I cannot feel but disappointed. And a part of me "feels" this is not the tale Bakker set out to write so many years ago.

- An intellect/power such a Khellus, having achieved the impossible, leaves Celmonas alive? Really? Because of Esmenet?
"His darkness?" Come on. I did not get it at all. At the eve of the greatest battle the world has ever seen he spends that much power to save Esmenet?
Okay fair enough I will suspend believe for a few heartbeats. But why? What was the reason behind it? Nothing was ever done without reason by this character.
Why would he return to "save" her? It makes no sense and goes against the core of what the character is imo. And again makes no sense his decisions over Celmonas.

- What was the point of Cnaiur urs Skiotha at all as a character in this series? Seemed only to exist to appease the fans who wanted him returned. I cant' think of anything done with this character that influenced the narrative or outcome. It lessened him as a character and he deserved better imo.

- Massive cliffhanger or simply an easy way out? I guess it will work both ways. If there is enough clamour for a return to the series there is enough ambiguity in the end to have another trilogy, if not Bakker can always say "It is done..."
Either way I, as a reader, do not care for the next installment. It would simply be stretching a good thing for the sake of stretching it and dilute it as I feel the Aspect Emperor Series diluted the Prince of Nothing.

In fact there shouldn't be another installment. The world has been emptied of fighting men by the Ordeal.
Enough souls and sins have now been sacrificed and committed surely, that the World is now Shut to the Outside?
The Consul won. The No God Walks again. What happens to Cnaiur urs Skiotha after he walks through the horde shows that. "Nothing..."

There are several other plots throughout the Aspect Emperor series I never understood or thought made sense but it is not important now. What the hell was the point of the White Luck Warrior for instance? (the worse book of the whole series for me?) I don't get it.

Overall I think it was an amazing journey, flawed towards the end,very flawed but amazing. Bakker is one of the best writers alive today and I thank him for the world and characters he created for our enjoyment. Hope he moves into a new project and reinvents himself.

Truth Shines!