This can be its own thread - I'm actually surprised there isn't one already.

As there isn't a pertinent thread, beyond the discussion Wilshire already linked, I thought I'd drag a couple other pieces of speculation - not necessarily stuff I agree with but Thorsten offers a valid stab.

Thorsten's Metaphysics of Earwa - Pre-TJE

The Chorae

The Trinkets fall rather nicely into this concept. If sorcery is a Onefold Thought where an insinuation of more in the perceived reality is turned into perceived reality by creating absolute meaning, the Chorae would prevent this by removing the insinuations of more. That is precisely why they are felt by a sorcerer as an absence in the onta (DB, Ch.1). The name is presumably derived from

χωρη - proper place

and this is literally what the Trinkets do - they locally force true reality to be in its 'proper place', i.e. to equal perceived reality. In other words, they destroy reality in order to reinforce an illusion of perception. Small wonder a sorcery based on contradiction like the Aporos was necessary for their creation!

Interestingly enough, it seems the Chorae must touch skin to offer protection from sorcery (WP, Ch.18). The question remains as to why Chorae destroy sorcerers as soon as they have actually used sorcery. It seems in most cases sorcerers touched by a Chorae turn to salt (e.g. TT, Ch. 16), but in some cases, cf. the end of Moënghus, this does not seem to happen. Partially, the explanation may be that Chorae are needed by RSB as a device for the story - without their threat, given the power of sorcery, there would be no need for conventional warfare with armies. It is chiefly the threat of Chorae bowmen which prevents sorcery from becoming the chief means of warfare, so this property of the Chorae is rather needed.

But (leaving aside the salt as a nice dramatic touch) it would also fit into the pattern outlined here. A sorcerer using sorcery leans out of the reality perceived by other people by creating absolute meaning. This other reality (created by the super-consciousness of the Thousandfold Thought) adjusts and is forced locally to agree with the sorcerer's reality. But this adjustment may not be perfect, so in a sense a sorcerer after using sorcery never quite remains in the same reality as other people. Given that true reality is sufficiently indefinite, that doesn't matter. The Chorae however force true reality to agree with perceived reality and hence leave no place for the slightly different reality of the sorcerer, therefore destroying him.

There are also mentions of 'anarcane ground' (TT, Gl. 'Arithau') in the text on which renders sorcery impotent. This may or may not fall into the ideas developed here, there's simply not enough information to judge how anarcane ground works.

Thorsten's Metaphysics of Earwa II - Post-TJE

The Judging Eye

The strongest evidence that Kellhus does in fact not represent the God is given by what Mimara's Judging Eye sees in Achamian. Supposedly the Judging Eye should show an objective moral judgement (we have at present no way of really knowing if that is the case, but I'm willing to accept the idea for the moment). Since Kellhus claimed he can rewrite the holy texts and in doing so save the sorcerers from damnation, but Mimara continues do see the damnation of sorcerers, it would follow that Kellhus' claim is wrong. And if Kellhus' claims to spiritual matters are wrong, he cannot be a prophet or represent the God. This would make him appear as someone who poses as a prophet to make use of the belief of others for his own ends - just what he started out to do back in DB.

The truly interesting question is - what does Mimara see when she looks at Kellhus with the Judging Eye? If he is a prophet who just happens to be using the Gnosis, then he may not be damned, but if he is a sorcerer who would like to appear as a prophet, then the Judging Eye would show him as damned just like other sorcerers. Unfortunately, we don't know (although it's a bit of a stretch that Mimara who spent time close to Kellhus wouldn't know and Achamian wouldn't ask her).

In the terminology developed before, what actually is the Judging Eye? It would be something like the ability to see the world while tapping the super-consciousness that is the God, i.e. to see more than one's own judgement, but rather a collective judgement.

The Chorae

Previously I argued that Chorea 'force true reality to be in its 'proper place', i.e. to equal perceived reality [i.e. the God]' and that they can therefore be used to 'anchor' something in reality (in fact, I argued that this is their function for the No-God). This idea is confirmed rather nicely in JE.

At the beginning of the key scene in Ch. 16 Mimara observes how reality seems to move whereas the Chorae remains steady: 'a sense that it is not theTrinket that moves so much as it is the whole of creation about it'. Later she uses the Judging Eye to see 'through' the Chorae, and she finds a light, a 'point of luminous white certainty' which she sees as a Tear of God. That is precisely what one would expect to happen in my theory of Chorae. The Judging Eye shows the objective moral judgement of something. The God is emergent from reality perceiving itself in the minds of people. The Chorae forces true reality to be perceived reality, i.e. it shapes the reality of the God out of chaos - of course that act is identical to the nature of the God, and that is what the Judging Eye perceives. This, in fact, is my main argument why the explanation of what the Judging Eye is is correct - it agrees with everything we can deduce about Chorae.

Achamian is astonished at what Mimara does with the Chorae - he is of the opinion that Hell should have swallowed them whole, Chorae or not. But I don't think that could happen - a Topos, the Outside, should be no more able to swallow a Chorae as a sorcerer should be able to use it. Thus, my conclusion is that Achamian is in error here. After all - how could he know?

I think we simply don't know enough, Deliverator.

A friend of mine and I tried to narrow it down to a specific linguistic statement: Anyone looking at any Chorae with the Judging Eye would see what Mimara saw.

Does that reflect aspects of Aporetic sorcery? Aporos is only historically considered a forbidden branch of sorcery among the Nonmen because of their Quyan Civil Wars before the Fall of the Ark.

Is the Judging Eye actually the perception of righteous Judgment in Earwa?

Do Mimara's words about guarding the Gates actually make the difference and persuade the Wight, rather than the obvious Chorae/Judging Eye phenomenon?

I never got a list, unfortunately. A couple times I've managed to calibrate some amazon page to show a number of the different translations but I couldn't duplicate my results when I tried again this most recent time to answer your question.

German, Spanish, and French for sure...

I'm going to enjoy the post-experience breakdown of that collapse of circumstances into living the connotative readings of the text... Bakker seems to think our ideas exceed the-epic-that-is.

Decided to bump this thread with a question that might not be 100% pertinent but oh well.

For some reason, it donned on me that the whole of Golgotterath is surely a topos. A really big and terrible one.

+1 on the bump. A friend and I discussed about it a few times in the past weeks and it is really difficult to frame a TSA FAQ. Too many questions remain relevant throughout the series.

Golgotterath seems like it would be the worst topoi?

There is a rare chance that you, personally, do absolutely nothing to further ingrain the set of manifest behaviours we've called WMP. I'm certainly not innocent. But I enjoy breaking apart moments of circumstance like this so indulge me while I bullet-point some abstractions:

- Every time I'm sitting around with buddies and we allow, through our inaction or laziness, demeaning or derogatory jokes or comments to linger unchallenged.

- Every time we, as people in the world, make unwanted compliments or comments concerning/towards/about members of another gender.

- Every time we thoughtlessly allow our selves and our children to consume and reproduce gender stereotypes and actions portrayed in the media.

- Every time we meet stereotypes of these representions in our lives or (re)enact stereotypical actions or situations.

I could probably think of more and definitely include a bunch of common heuristic and bias errors that seem to take place over a wide sample of a skewed population (WEIRD studies - cheers to whomever on TPB got me hooked on that acronym. Though, I think many practicing scientists understand that demographic and its various socioeconomic reasons). But this is the messy arena in which human behavior, of word or action, manifests these thoughtlessly embodied societal and cultural norms.

By all means, spoiler away, I have no issues with spoilers at all and I'm greedy for some information related to books that is not in the books.

Mekeritrig

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The Dunyain Anasurimbor are the offspring of Ganrelka's Bastard.

I think I missed where it says so. I thought Kelmomas sent his own son into Ishual, as he was telling to Seswatcha one day?

I'm not 100% sure - and don't have TJE on me - but I believe Celmomas does say to Seswatha that he's building Ishual "as somewhere his line can survive" but I took that to mean a final refuge for House Anasurimbor, something any of the Family might use for respite. He tells Seswatha to hide the map to Ishual in the coffers.

I feel that there is a chance that Ganrelka was Cel's first son - born of a teenage daliance and not originally expected to figure in the succession.

It probably isn't that far-fetched to think that Ganrelka is Celmomas' firstborn; arranged marriages, pubescent viability, etc.

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However, who was that nameless face woven into the cloak?

You mean - who was that Nonman Kellhus encountered? I don't think it matters,  all nonmans are over 2000 years old, all they carry ancient knowledge of these days. Except these who went insane.

We know this actually - Bakker asked a question years ago on Zombie Three-Seas. I wouldn't want to be the person to spoil it for you and it's ulterior to what I actually meant:

When the Nonman tells Kellhus he recognized him as Anasurimbor, he fumbles with a particular face on his cloak. I was wondering who that Anasurimbor was?

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Because if not, then we might assume that all the Dunyain are Seswatha's descendants, not Celmomas'.

This is correct only under circumstances that Seswatha is Anasurimbor, but books never mention anything like that. Otherwise there is only one way: Kelmomas's wife was Anasurimbor as well.  Eowa has their own Targariens?

That's actually a really good point - that could easily be an mid-game bombshell by Bakker. Incestual bloodline.

However, I think we're all missing the point. The Dunyain Anasurimbor are the offspring of Ganrelka's Bastard. The arguments go that Ganrelka is either Celmomas' son, brother, or nephew, based on the fact that Celmomas is 15 years older (I think) than Ganrelka. If he's Celmomas' nephew than I, for one, don't think that counts as fulfilling the Celmomian Prophecy.

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My current thinking is that the Dunyain are Seswatha's descendants (and that Kellhus knows this thanks to that little chat he had with Akka's inner Seswatha) and that Esmenet (and therefore Mimara) is descended from the true Anasurimbor line. In the PoN books, there are references to Esmenet having quite pale skin, despite being Ketyai, which perhaps suggests she has some Norsirai (and maybe Nonman) blood. We know Mimara reminded Cleric of his wife. And both Esmenet and Mimara are supposedly super-smart for non-Dunyain humans (the given reason for Kellhus choosing Esme to bear his children), also suggesting some influence of Nonman blood. In particular, Mimara has the Nonman talent for making great conceptual leaps in her understanding of the metaphysics of the world.

IMO, any male pronoun used in reference to the Anasurimbor who returns at the End is purely an artefact of the rigidly patriarchal culture of Earwa (both in Seswatha's time and in Kellhus'). I.e. everybody in Earwa who knows of the Celmomian Prophecy would naturally assume it'd be a male descendant. Including Celmomas himself and Seswatha.

Like the thoughts, Duskweaver. Concise first post .

But how can be he Seswatcha descendant if he clearly son of Anasurimbor? The Nonman does not just says that he has blood of Anasurimbors', he says that he exactly bears "his face" ie direct descendant on father's line.

Achamian's dreams in The White Luck Warrior explicitly state that Seswatha was carrying on an affair with Anasurimbor Celmomas' wife.  Seswatha also seems attached to Nau Cayuti as though he were NC's father.

Making great points, Kein.

We have two divergences, I think. The Dunyain seem in no way progeny of Nau-Cayuti - likely the Dunyain are of the Few because of generational training for cognitive function, in line with what Bakker's said elsewhere.

Which means that Seswatha corrupting the Celmomas bloodline and where that bloodline held out, if it did, still remains a question; Last Scion speculation, etc.

Hi Kein,

It saddens me that no one is around/took the time to answer your question...

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, by the way.

Apologies, this might get convoluted.

Firstly, we've had a version of this debate in various places around the forum, most explicitly in Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri.

Secondly, I think we've discussed it so much because we've assumed that the Celmomian Prophecy's fulfillment is important.

The Nonman at the beginning of TDTCB does seem to confirm that Kellhus is related to an Anasurimbor that the Nonman had previously killed. However, who was that nameless face woven into the cloak?

But there are other obligatory questions to ask.

Were the Anasurimbor of the Few before Seswatha? Because if not, then we might assume that all the Dunyain are Seswatha's descendants, not Celmomas'.

What does having Nonmen blood (which all Anasurimbors, apparently, have had since the Nonmen tutelage) mean for the Anasurimbors?

Could Celmomas' bloodline have survived somewhere other than Ishual?

Does this help at all? I'm sure it simply prompts more questions .