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The Unholy Consult / Re: If Cish can see Souls via Third Sight, why couldn't they see skin spies...

« Last post by sciborg2 on June 30, 2021, 05:26:41 pm »

Quote from: Wilshire on May 17, 2021, 05:49:45 pm

I think probably "portion of god" and/or Third Sight seems something closer to Intellect than Soul. Why else would Moenghus shine so brightly. Also, this explains why Skin Spies wouldn't necessarily jump out in the Third Sight.

The Cish don't see souls, but something else entirely.

I was thinking about this again, going back to Bakker's D&D campaign...perhaps what the Cish see is the relative portion of stats?

Souls "shine" in the sense that great souls have great intellect/charisma/wisdom...possibly even physical stats are the usual manifestation of a great soul. And since this has always worked out, as far as the Cish can explore metaphysics (they don't seem to have any facility with the Daimos) they just see the skin-spies perfect machinery as bright souls?

The Unholy Consult / Re: Collapse of Object and Subject

« Last post by sciborg2 on June 28, 2021, 11:09:09 pm »

We talked some more about this on the Discord - or rather I babbled to myself this weekend

There the whole lineage thing that combines human and Nonman blood, resulting in a "Two Hearted" ancestor of Kellhus.

From Knife of Many Hands there seems to be a parallel between two hearts and two personalities if not two souls.

This seems to relate to something the No-God requires to get started again, perhaps having two souls in one body creates some "flaw" or "singularity" that the Ark + NG can exploit to shut the world?

Another question is whether the Outside is made of "stuff" and can be manipulated in the same way the Inside has been manipulated using the reductonist principles of the Tekne.

The Unholy Consult / Re: Collapse of Object and Subject

« Last post by H on June 21, 2021, 04:40:57 pm »

Quote from: TaoHorror on June 21, 2021, 04:30:53 pm

Well - a twin that murders his twin may do the trick is what I was going for. The murder creating the topoi required to complete the collapse, not just your twin dying as they would've likely encountered such a person through their testing.

I am not sure a topoi is the right parallel though. A topoi bridges the Inside and Outside, the material world and the ethical realm of Spirit. The No-God sort of does the "reverse" (or whatever method of negation would be the right term). It closes the Inside to the Outside, isolating the material words from that ethical realm altogether.

The Unholy Consult / Re: Collapse of Object and Subject

« Last post by SmilerLoki on June 21, 2021, 04:38:36 pm »

Quote from: TaoHorror on June 21, 2021, 04:30:53 pm

Well - a twin that murders his twin may do the trick is what I was going for. The murder creating the topoi required to complete the collapse, not just your twin dying as they would've likely encountered such a person through their testing.

One death wouldn't create a topos, though. Moreover, Kelmomas doesn't exhibit any topoi-like qualities, if anything, he exhibits just the opposite.

The Unholy Consult / Re: Collapse of Object and Subject

« Last post by TaoHorror on June 21, 2021, 04:30:53 pm »

Well - a twin that murders his twin may do the trick is what I was going for. The murder creating the topoi required to complete the collapse, not just your twin dying as they would've likely encountered such a person through their testing.

The Unholy Consult / Re: Collapse of Object and Subject

« Last post by H on June 21, 2021, 04:20:37 pm »

Well, it was Celmomas II, not necessarily Nau-Cayûti (who was the first No-God) who we know to be a twin. We don't know if Nau was or was not though. It could be that he was and somehow some process of twinning divorces the soul from a specific body. It could also just be that the process little Kel undergoes (hypnotism of sorts?) does the same. It's totally unclear why makes one "suitable" for No-God operation. But it must be rather uncommon. Just being a twin seems unlikely, given how many people were stuffed in there over the years.

If just being a twin was sufficient, it likely would have works just by blind luck. However, being a twin might be necessary, but not quite sufficient. What the sufficient condition might further be is a subsequent sort of divorce between the soul and (possibly, maybe) the larger ethical realm (read: Spirit, the Soul, the Outside).

The Unholy Consult / Re: Collapse of Object and Subject

« Last post by SmilerLoki on June 21, 2021, 04:10:51 pm »

Quote from: TaoHorror on June 21, 2021, 03:45:59 pm

Not sure if we've ever figured out why the original insertant and lil' Kel were able to operate TNG. We've been talking about it in Facebook and bringing it here in case some of you are not in the FB group. Could it be that a twin killing their twin causes their consciousness to collapse with their unconsciousness which then makes you invisible to the gods since you wouldn't have a soul any more ( soul destruction? or does it go somewhere? ). If this happens to you, then your conscious and unconscious minds would be objectively aware of each other and can even talk to each other. So the original insertant and the dude 2,000 years ago ( forget his name ) were both twins who murdered their twin, obj/sub collapse, their soul is gone and then can operate TNG. TNG is invisible as well as the insertant is - explains why the Luck Warrior couldn't see Lil' Kel, was invisible to the gods since his ojb/sub collapsed. So back in the day, the Consult couldn't figure this out and just sent a horde of people through trying to find someone who could turn it on. If they knew this was how to make it work, they would've simply found twins and engineered one to murder the other.

One thing that I want to say about it (it came up on Discord recently) - there is no data points that suggest that there were any Insertants before Nau-Cayuti. Thus, he is the original Insertant.

The Unholy Consult / Collapse of Object and Subject

« Last post by TaoHorror on June 21, 2021, 03:45:59 pm »

Not sure if we've ever figured out why the original insertant and lil' Kel were able to operate TNG. We've been talking about it in Facebook and bringing it here in case some of you are not in the FB group. Could it be that a twin killing their twin causes their consciousness to collapse with their unconsciousness which then makes you invisible to the gods since you wouldn't have a soul any more ( soul destruction? or does it go somewhere? ). If this happens to you, then your conscious and unconscious minds would be objectively aware of each other and can even talk to each other. So the original insertant and the dude 2,000 years ago ( forget his name ) were both twins who murdered their twin, obj/sub collapse, their soul is gone and then can operate TNG. TNG is invisible as well as the insertant is - explains why the Luck Warrior couldn't see Lil' Kel, was invisible to the gods since his ojb/sub collapsed. So back in the day, the Consult couldn't figure this out and just sent a horde of people through trying to find someone who could turn it on. If they knew this was how to make it work, they would've simply found twins and engineered one to murder the other.

The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash

« Last post by Wilshire on June 18, 2021, 03:30:37 pm »

Quote from: H on June 18, 2021, 11:22:09 am

Quote from: Wilshire on June 17, 2021, 01:35:20 pm
As I'm not sure the Heron Spear actually did anything last time, I do think its possible some kind of magic laser ballista scenario this time around with Akka pulling the trigger.
Well, there is that dream where Akka sees Anaxophus failing to "take up the Spear" and just parroting the No-God's words. But it is totally unclear if that is a clear vision of the past, or a paranoids corruption of the true. I guess one thing is that it leaves the Herron Spear well and open to be anything the narrative ends up wanting it to be though.

Yeah at this point in time, we know that Bakker is not entirely sure of all the exact details of TNG even as he finished TUC. This could be something he left open to decide later if he needed/wanted to use it.

The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash

« Last post by H on June 18, 2021, 11:22:09 am »

Quote from: Wilshire on June 17, 2021, 01:35:20 pm

As I'm not sure the Heron Spear actually did anything last time, I do think its possible some kind of magic laser ballista scenario this time around with Akka pulling the trigger.

Well, there is that dream where Akka sees Anaxophus failing to "take up the Spear" and just parroting the No-God's words. But it is totally unclear if that is a clear vision of the past, or a paranoids corruption of the true. I guess one thing is that it leaves the Herron Spear well and open to be anything the narrative ends up wanting it to be though.

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