[Bertxi]

Since the start of the AE series we have seen a remarkable change to Achimians dreams of the first Apocalypse. Starting with him dreaming mundane aspects of Seswathas life, to dreaming of the map of Ishual which turned out to be true and seemed to validate the authenticity of his dreams thus far. Towards the end of TGO, Achiamian dreams of the death and following prophecy uttered by Kelmomas II; but he sees Kelhus striding towards Kelmomas as the prophecy is spoken as if Kelhus is the god that Kelmomas thinks is giving him the prophecy. If true, it seemes as if Kelhus is currently or has been able to view time as the gods do; now i wonder if at the end of the TTT that when Kelhus told Achiamian that,  "The next time that you see me you will kneel", like he already knew what would happen.
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[MSJ]

Well, I took it as Ajokli/Gilgoal(im going to try and find a desription of Gilgoal, we're assuming it's Ajokli because of 4 horns, but Celmommas thinks it's Gilgoal) was showing Celmommas that Kellhus is the end, end of the Gods. I never thought Kellhus has anything to do with it, quite frankly. I do believe that through the probability trance, Kellhus knows that Akka will kneel. A cryptic statement at the time, I have no doubt that Akka will kneel. Probably on the Fields of Elonoit(sp?), a là Seswatha and Celmommas.

[Bolivar]

I thought it was strange because 1) he keeps saying he sees Nau Cayuti and that he's speaking to him 2) even though NC is nowhere to be seen and he thinks it's Gilgaol coming to him and speaking and 3) the being is described with four horns like Ajokli.

I suspect the Second Apocalypse won't be like the first and that it's something Kellhus will bring about. Even though Achamian prods him at the end of TTT, saying that he speaks of an Apocalypse when claiming all things are rewritten with him, this is a hint that it really will be an Apocalypse when everything he's planned is brought to fruition.

I don't think Kellhus has in fact seen that Akka will kneel, just that he has resolved that it will be so and will do whatever he needs to in between to make sure it happens. I don't think Kellhus sees as crazy far as we sometimes credit him, he actually does have to work hard to ensure his objectives come to fruition. It's something he has to work towards, as having his denouncer kneel would go a long way towards legitimizing him.

[MisterGuyMan]

Kellhus by the time he prophecies that Akka will kneel the next time they meet, is already having visions that he presumably believes.  By this point, future Kellhus has ample time/opportunity to condition the ground for present Khellus.  Inserting a quick "Akka will kneel" revelation would be a minor thing.  Of course naturally this supposed the Kellhus marches toward godhood theory.

If true, it seemes as if Kelhus is currently or has been able to view time as the gods do; now i wonder if at the end of the TTT that when Kelhus told Achiamian that,  "The next time that you see me you will kneel", like he already knew what would happen.
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Good catch.  I had missed it completely that technically Akka just saw Kellhus and he was kneeling in the dreams over the dying Celmomas.

[H]

Well, just to make it more confusing, both Ajolki and Gilgoal are described as having four horns.  I don't think we ever see Gilgoal any other time.  I'll have to go back and see if any of the idols of Ajolki ever give a further description though.

[MSJ]

Well, just to make it more confusing, both Ajolki and Gilgoal are described as having four horns.  I don't think we ever see Gilgoal any other time.  I'll have to go back and see if any of the idols of Ajolki ever give a further description though.

And, during the scene it says it's Gilgoal, correct?

[themerchant]

Isn't he just wearing a crown with four horns held by nubile woman? As opposed to having 4 horns as part of his head?

Also he shows the high King Kelhus and says "Behold a son of a hundred fathers" " Behold the end of the world" or words to that effect. Almost like he is going to cause the end of the world, and the king misinterpreted.

[Wilshire]

That scene absolutly states that Kellhus is the end of the world.

What remains unclear is what "the end of the world" is. Could just be the sealing shut of the World from the Outside - I assume this is a prophesy from the Gods to men, they would of course be trying to prevent that end.

[Cüréthañ]

My thought is that it is the end of an age. If the consult win, the world itself doesn't really end. They still need people to torture etc. They have the Scylvendi, and obviously places like Wreoleth show that even the Inchoroi wanted to preserve a source of victims beyond victory.

I think that even if Khellus is to prevail, it still means the 'end of the world'. This is the Second Apocalypse, after all.

Handy thing about this interpretation is that it means that Seswatha was present for the end of the world (i.e. the fall of the ancient North and the birth of Inri Sejenus). And, in a way, will be again if Akka survives, which makes it even more of a 'doom'.

[Madness]

I thought it was strange because 1) he keeps saying he sees Nau Cayuti and that he's speaking to him 2) even though NC is nowhere to be seen and he thinks it's Gilgaol coming to him and speaking and 3) the being is described with four horns like Ajokli.

I suspect the Second Apocalypse won't be like the first and that it's something Kellhus will bring about. Even though Achamian prods him at the end of TTT, saying that he speaks of an Apocalypse when claiming all things are rewritten with him, this is a hint that it really will be an Apocalypse when everything he's planned is brought to fruition.

I think with this Celmomas perspective of the Prophecy, it seems clear that Celmomas segues without saying so and that as Seswatha, as the reader, we've previously not perceived the segue and so continued to interpret Celmomas as speaking of Nau-Cayuti.

To the second point, there's a good chance the monicker of the series actually uses apocalypse as a stand-in for "revelation."

Arguably, we could be incredibly over-the-top about the appellation and assume that Bakker is suggesting that The Second Apocalypse is actually The Second Enlightenment... you know, like the Enlightment, which would subsequently be called The First Enlightenment .

Well, just to make it more confusing, both Ajolki and Gilgoal are described as having four horns.  I don't think we ever see Gilgoal any other time.  I'll have to go back and see if any of the idols of Ajolki ever give a further description though.

And, during the scene it says it's Gilgoal, correct?

Celmomas perceives it to be Gilgoal.

I have to say, after reading the actual book finally and reading the speculation here and at Westeros, I'm inclined to assume that since it's perceived as such an obvious catch that Gilgoal is actually Ajokli, not that Ajokli is Gilgoal.

I'm not sure why that distinction matters to me but it does...