[Titan]

As I finished my first re-read of TTT yesterday, I came upon this passage

(From "The Thousandfold Thought", just before Kellhus stabs Moenghus:)

Kellhus: “The crimes you’ve committed, Father … the sins … When you learn of the damnation that awaits you, when you come to believe, you will be no different from the Inchoroi. As Dûnyain, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickedness. Like the Consult, you will come to see tyranny in what is holy … And you will war as they war.”

It seems like Kellhus is inching closer and closer to what claimed his father would do. He now appears to war against damnation, his tactics taking him closer and closer to the Consult. (metaphorically *and* geographically) Some irony, eh? 

[MSJ]

As I finished my first re-read of TTT yesterday, I came upon this passage

(From "The Thousandfold Thought", just before Kellhus stabs Moenghus:)

Kellhus: “The crimes you’ve committed, Father … the sins … When you learn of the damnation that awaits you, when you come to believe, you will be no different from the Inchoroi. As Dûnyain, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickedness. Like the Consult, you will come to see tyranny in what is holy … And you will war as they war.”

It seems like Kellhus is inching closer and closer to what claimed his father would do. He now appears to war against damnation, his tactics taking him closer and closer to the Consult. (metaphorically *and* geographically) Some irony, eh? 

Yes, and everything points to that being exactly what happens. People have been arguing that Kellhus would turn into the very thing he thought his father would since I've started these books, even longer. But, where's the surprise in that? Would TUC or this series as a whole be that great if that what happens? Every time I've read that passage the same thing always pops into my mind, "Kellhus is Dûnyain, has grasped the Thousandfold Thought, what would make him any different. Its inevitable that he becomes what he claims his father would become."

But, doesnt that seem a bit too easy? I think Kellhus had made the TT his own, his own version, so to say. Its why I prattle on about his emotions and caring for humanity (in a sense, that sense being damnation. Not just saving his own hide, but as many as possible.). We've been set up since the very beginning to believe Kellhus is Mission, ruthless, manipulative and all for his own liking. I think the twist will be that somewhere along the way (the Circumfix, imo) he changed. He"a not what you would call a standard hero, but inverted in a sense, as Bakker likes to do. I cannot see TUC ending with Kellhus joining the Consult and only saving himself from damnation as predicTed in that passage (or foreshadowed). No, I think this MONSTER we've come to think of as Kellhus will truly try and do what he believes is best for humanity. Wether that is or not is a totally different question.

[Titan]

Oh I agree. I don't think he will join the Consult. They have the same goal, but I think he is taking a different (shorter) path.

And yes, I do believe he cares... In some remote Dunyain-ish way. But that might not stop him from being considered a monster from a normal human point of view.

[MSJ]

Oh I agree. I don't think he will join the Consult. They have the same goal, but I think he is taking a different (shorter) path.

And yes, I do believe he cares... In some remote Dunyain-ish way. But that might not stop him from being considered a monster from a normal human point of view.

From a normal point of view, he is a monster. One of the most ruthless characters I've ever read.

[Bolivar]

Everything he's done seems to parallel what he said to his father and more so the vision he describes afterwards of the Three Seas collapsing and the premeditated disasters ("this is a good thing"). I agree that it won't play out exactly that way, it'll be something unexpected and all the more terrifying for it. Kellhus might not join the Consult but it's likely he will try to subjugate them the same way he's done everyone else. That would be the ultimate domination IMO.

[MSJ]

Everything he's done seems to parallel what he said to his father and more so the vision he describes afterwards of the Three Seas collapsing and the premeditated disasters ("this is a good thing"). I agree that it won't play out exactly that way, it'll be something unexpected and all the more terrifying for it. Kellhus might not join the Consult but it's likely he will try to subjugate them the same way he's done everyone else. That would be the ultimate domination IMO.

Yep, I agree he'll try to end damnation, but in the end it might not look pretty.

[Callan S.]

End damnation - to introduce hyper damnation! All the soul reading skills of a Dunyain used to really judge ya good!

[MSJ]

End damnation - to introduce hyper damnation! All the soul reading skills of a Dunyain used to really judge ya good!

Lol, wouldn't that be f'n atrocious?

[Titan]

End damnation - to introduce hyper damnation! All the soul reading skills of a Dunyain used to really judge ya good!

Wouldn't that be called Meta-damnation?

[Callan S.]

He speaks as the old ones do, in the voice of three...

It's only meta damnation when Kellhus grasps the absolute...and eclipses it.

[Callan S.]

Also it's worth considering if what Kellhus says can be taken as a prediction about the readers inclination and over time the reader starts to see the gods as a tyranny.

[mrganondorf]

Hi Titan!

Yeah--that's remarkable that Kellhus seems to be thinking along the lines you sketched out.  It makes me think that Bakker is going to have Kellhus do something else.  He'll set it up so that the reader will be thinking like the Consult--that the only redemption is shutting the world and then Kellhus will do some kind of paradigm shift move.  Maybe Kellhus will straight up kill God and Mog and every Ciphrang and whatever else is living in the Outside.

It just seems like a sneaky author thing to do--get the audience to think of Earwa in terms of the Consult binary: World-Open/World-Shut.  But the Consult are just another group blinded by invisible ignorance, so Kellhus might be trying to circumnavigate their dilemma. 

[Callan S.]

I was wondering if he'd blow up the universe and meaning with it, causing the big bang to create ours.

[mrganondorf]

I was wondering if he'd blow up the universe and meaning with it, causing the big bang to create ours.

Brilliant Callan! Kind of "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..."

[MisterGuyMan]

I don't have my copy on hand but IIRC Kellhus continues his speech by saying that the Thousandfold Thought outgrew the mind that concieved it and that Kellhus saw farther.  So Kellhus doesn't have to do anything differently than his Father up until the specific point where his Moe's intellect failed. 

Kellhus believed Moe's intellect would have inevitably led him to side with the Consult to avoid his own damnation.  I believe Kellhus sees farther so he will precede damnation altogether and become the Solitary God.  Barring that he sees a third option apart from the two either/or binary options that we've been given thus far, in other words, Either let humans be damned in the afterlife or kill all humans so Hell disappears.

The Bejunka metaphor is too pervasive to not foreshadow such a move.  A move that will change all further moves.  That's Kellhus' play and he's the only one that saw it.