[Somnambulist]

This is kind of a catch-all speculation post regarding Kellhus and his limits (or lack thereof).  I'm going to wander around some topics, but please feel free to insert more if you're so inclined.  Some of these will have been touched on before, but I'm trying to get an overall baseline for what people think Kellhus is actually capable of, and what he is not.  Some points to start:

1)  Teleportation:  It's been accepted as doctrine that a metagnostic sorcerer can teleport the distance of horizon to horizon, or distances relative to that which they can reasonably see.  While this may be true of world-born sorcerers (and half-Dunyain for that matter), I'm not so sure it applies to Kellhus himself, being full Dunyain.  Leaving the underground Mansion after knifing Moenghus, he obviously couldn't 'see' Shimeh, yet he popped into the sky above it, assumedly straight from that underground room.  With his mental faculties, he could easily have studied the landscape and held that target in his mind for probably an indefinite period of time, thus negating the need to see his destination.  Likewise, twenty years later, he's supposedly making many jumps from the location of the Great Ordeal back to Momemn, and he plays like he's tired because of it.  He may very well be tired, but I don't think he's actually making the same jumps others would.  I think he's tired because it's more arduous to teleport to someplace you can't directly see.  I think he made one jump, straight from the Ordeal and into the throne room on the Adiamine Heights, but it was taxing even for him.  On a tangent, but directly related to this subject, back when Sasheoka was assassinated by the Cishaurim, thus sparking the war between the Scarlet Spires and the snakeheads, I think it was Eleazaras who related that the Cishaurim simply popped into view in their deepest, most secure sanctum.  So, the Cish not only had the ability to teleport, but to teleport to someplace they couldn't see directly.  This, to me, is evidence that Moenghus had the knowledge, if not the power, on how to accomplish this feat.  Maybe the fact that they're blind actually helped them, as they can't really 'see' in the traditional sense anyway.  Just food for thought.

2)  Meta-Daimos:  This has been brought up in another thread as a possibility.  I think it's an inevitability.  If Iyokus can summon and control three Ciphrang at once, surely Kellhus can up the ante exponentially.  I would imagine he could field a small army of Ciphrang, and most likely control them to a much greater degree.  And/or he could probably yoke more powerful demons.  Imagine behemoths the likes of which no one has ever been able to control before, powers out of reach of world-born men and their frailties.  And Kellhus, imo, is not deterred by fears of damnation or eternal torment.  He's gone all-in and intends to come out on top.  Might be his ace-in-the-hole in the war: an army that doesn't need to be marched anywhere, just summoned when you got there.

3)  Meta-Compulsions:  So, if compulsions are indistinguishable from one's own thoughts, and with Kel's advanced conditioning taken into account, would he not just be able to outright re-write someone's psyche to become whatever he wants them to be?  When Esmenet was possessed by Aurang (Aurax? sorry, can never remember which is which), Kellhus was able to suppress some of those experiences in her (am I remembering that right?)  Regardless, I believe his compulsions could, in theory, become a tool by which he could dominate/enslave/compel virtually anyone.  Isn't this essentially what the Whelming is?  Couple this with dream communication.  Moenghus was able to communicate via dream, even though he was supposedly weak in the water, all the way to Ishual.  Kellhus would have been easily more adept at this kind of thing.  My postulation, in this instance, is that he could have dream-contacted the people he knew before he left and put the whammy on them (scientific term here).  In this scenario, once he had them firmly under his control, he may have used them the purge the rest of the Dunyain, leaving only those loyal to him left.  Then he shows up, completes their whelming, destroys Ishual and inserts his slaves into his army.  Others have postulated that there may be full Dunyain under Kel's control.  Not my idea, but if that were true, maybe this is how he did it.

Okay, I'm losing steam.  There may have been other specifics I had in mind, but I can't remember them if there were.  What do you think?  Bullshit?  Something?  Would love to hear what anyone else might think about any of this.

[Callan S.]

Do we have any information about metagnostic casters getting tired when they teleport? To be honest I thought they hadn't even achieved that? I miss reading something?

Might be his ace-in-the-hole in the war: an army that doesn't need to be marched anywhere, just summoned when you got there.

That'd sound about right, if the whole army just turns out to be a bluff and a ruse, not at all the actual forces that'd be used. All those people going through all that pain and death - not for glory, but to be the distraction in a sleight of hand and nothing more. Yeah, that sounds about right for the series!

[Borque]

Leaving the underground Mansion after knifing Moenghus, he obviously couldn't 'see' Shimeh, yet he popped into the sky above it, assumedly straight from that underground room.

Well we don't know. He might very well have performed a chain of jumps here too, with the first jump just covering the 15 meters to the top of that waterfall, or something.

So, the Cish not only had the ability to teleport, but to teleport to someplace they couldn't see directly.

They could have walked the Shadow Way (or whatever it was called), like Akka and Xin did in TWP.

2)  Meta-Daimos:

Great idea, I love it. Just the kind of surprise that Kellhus would love to spring on the Consult. Possibly his demon army even will include some of the Hundred.

That we are going to see some Demonic sorcery or other seems inevitable, with both Kellhus having walked the Outside and Iyokus being on the Ordeal, but I never envisioned something of this scale until you brought the possibility up.

3)  Meta-Compulsions:

Possible, but would need to be severely limited to be believable - i.e. he needs to know the dreamer and/or his location really well or something. Otherwise this potentially could have saved stupendous amounts of time and lives in the Wars of Unification and it would beg the question why it hasn't been used before. But then again, it might be possible to argue that it is a capacity he doesn't want the Consult to know he has, which is why he hasn't used it enough to raise their suspicions, etc.
 

[Cüréthañ]

Moenghus was able to communicate via dream, even though he was supposedly weak in the water, all the way to Ishual.  Kellhus would have been easily more adept at this kind of thing.

Akka reflects that Gnostic dream communication is impossible unless you know the exact location of the dreamer.  Anagogic and gnostic dream communication is only shown between two sorcerers (but that is possibly because of the impiety associated with sorcery).  Moe sent dreams a whole bunch of dunyain at the same time.

I'm not sure that physical distance is a factor. It is only Kellhus' assertion that that dream sending was Moe's upper limit, he may well be lying or just plain wrong.

For instance, at the start of TDTCB he uses his face as a communication portal for the Fanim leader to speak directly with Xerius, which seems a whole 'nother level above standard 'dream chat' cants - possibly comparable with Kellhus' fire scrying.  Before Cnaiur's first meeting with Kellhus, he 'dreams' about Moe, which may be a hint of Moenghus' literal activity in conditioning Kellhus' path (i.e. covering the possibility that Kellhus' path may take him through the same Scylvendi territories as Moe had travelled).

Otherwise big +1
I believe that Dunyain 'soul tethering' skills are (at least in part) a type of sorcery that leaves no mark, like the psukhe.  I suspect that cants of compulsion are merely inferior and clumsy (albeit faster, much dirtier) approximations of what the Dunyain are trained for.

[Dûnyain novice]

After all the time he had to hone his sorcerous skills, I'd expect awesome overpowered moves once the ordeal meets some really powerful enemy!
Meta-gnosis: As far as offensive capabilities we've seen next to nothing. At least nothing specific. There never was a scene like: “Kellhus uses Meta-Gnostic cant X which does X”. But we can assume he would be extremely powerful.
After all he had just learnt the gnosis when he cut through the top Cish like a hot knife through butter. Yes one could argue that the teleportation + surprise backstabbing was kind of cheating, and he probably did it because he realized that his wards were not strong enough. It was 20 years ago though, he must have perfected every aspect of his sorcery skills. I don’t think there’s anything we know that could stand in his way sorcery-wise.
A group of Quya perhaps, but I would bet my money on Kellhus anyway.
Also I think his new wards would be really complex, something similar to the Barricades in concept.

Meta-daimos: This is where the speculation gets interesting! What could we expect? A little army of incredibly powerful Ciphrang? Who knows, whatever it is it’s gonna be awesome. He must have some crazy stuff up his sleeve.

The Consult must have been preparing too! I bet they’re busy digging another very deep hole thinking “Hey it worked once, didn’t it?” XD

P.S.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling mistakes, still learning :-P

[Cüréthañ]

No worries Novice, your grammar is well above the internet norm.    Thanks for adding your thoughts.

Bit of a glimpse at Kellhus' offensive capabilities when he rocks up to save what's left of the Volkatai and Mandate at the end of WLW.

[Somnambulist]

Do we have any information about metagnostic casters getting tired when they teleport? To be honest I thought they hadn't even achieved that? I miss reading something?

I'll go through my reasoning.  So, the first cant Kel wants Akka to teach him is a cant of calling, which he then turns into a cant of transposing by adding a second inutteral string, thus making it a meta-gnostic cant.  Fast-forward 20 years.  There are a couple of descriptives in the text (both in TJE and TWP) which indicate that the limitation of transposing is horizon to horizon.  This is illustrated by Serwa and her jumps with Sorweel and Little Moe.  She's half-Dunyain and a meta-gnostic witch.  She's able to do this 2-4 times a day.  Saccarees is described as the first sorcerer to utter a meta-gnostic cant.  Assuming he's world-born (and not a Dunyain plant, as some have suggested), he also should be able to perform a cant of transposing, theoretically.  Also important is that he was the first to do so (after Kel, of course), implying there are more sorcerers capable of meta-gnostic cants.  My hypothesis is that world-born sorcerers need line of sight (i.e., horizon to horizon), whereas Kel can hold a destination in his mind (because of his superior mental faculties) and thus doesn't need to see his destination physically to transpose to it.  Transposing is arduous, though, which is probably why we don't see world-born sorcerers using it (yet).  Crackpot?

[Somnambulist]

Leaving the underground Mansion after knifing Moenghus, he obviously couldn't 'see' Shimeh, yet he popped into the sky above it, assumedly straight from that underground room.

Well we don't know. He might very well have performed a chain of jumps here too, with the first jump just covering the 15 meters to the top of that waterfall, or something.

So, the Cish not only had the ability to teleport, but to teleport to someplace they couldn't see directly.

They could have walked the Shadow Way (or whatever it was called), like Akka and Xin did in TWP.

To the first point, the interrogation room was a good distance from the waterfall room, down long corridors, etc., so he still couldn't physically 'see' any destination, really, outside of the room he was in.  And it was dark, aside from the sorcerous light he was providing, which would have been limited to, again, his immediate surroundings.  If he was limited to line of sight, he would had to have 'jumped' right behind Cnaiur into the hallway, jumped down the hallway increment by increment, limited by the radius of his sorcerous light.  Just doesn't make sense to me if we're talking line of sight for transposing.

To the second point, my belief is that the Scarlet Spires were aware of the shadow way and would have erected wards to combat it.  Seems no one ever expected transposition to be a possibility, so they were taken completely unawares.

Anyway, great comments so far!

[Madness]

1)  Teleportation:  It's been accepted as doctrine that a metagnostic sorcerer can teleport the distance of horizon to horizon, or distances relative to that which they can reasonably see.  While this may be true of world-born sorcerers (and half-Dunyain for that matter), I'm not so sure it applies to Kellhus himself, being full Dunyain.  Leaving the underground Mansion after knifing Moenghus, he obviously couldn't 'see' Shimeh, yet he popped into the sky above it, assumedly straight from that underground room.  With his mental faculties, he could easily have studied the landscape and held that target in his mind for probably an indefinite period of time, thus negating the need to see his destination.

Gah - my fucking course-load has ruined my ability to properly parse arguments .

Here goes... sometimes I feel as imaginatively useless as Theliopa around here. But as far as the evidence goes:

- Esmenet, Serwa, and Kelmomas all corroborate descriptions of the Cant of Transposition.
- Esmenet suggests that Kellhus can only move to places he can see from a distance or that he knows well to whatever degree. Kellhus had given his last sermon above Shimeh, with the city strategically behind him (I'm sure Dunyain have a kind of eidetic memory).
- Kelmomas suggests that Kellhus is not as tired as he plays with Esmenet, whether Kellhus made one Leap or any number, we don't know.
- Serwa affects that she is truly tired after even one jump; she sleeps after most Leaps, she seems to feel the chemo effects of the Leap like Moenghus and Sorweel when she doesn't execute the second inutteral effectively.

On a tangent, but directly related to this subject, back when Sasheoka was assassinated by the Cishaurim, thus sparking the war between the Scarlet Spires and the snakeheads, I think it was Eleazaras who related that the Cishaurim simply popped into view in their deepest, most secure sanctum.  So, the Cish not only had the ability to teleport, but to teleport to someplace they couldn't see directly.  This, to me, is evidence that Moenghus had the knowledge, if not the power, on how to accomplish this feat.  Maybe the fact that they're blind actually helped them, as they can't really 'see' in the traditional sense anyway.  Just food for thought.

I share Borque's commentary above about the walking the Shadow Way. It would be interesting to note why the Mandate actually knew about that when the Anagogic Schools don't seem to.

2)  Meta-Daimos:  This has been brought up in another thread as a possibility.  I think it's an inevitability.

Just +1. I think, I've pimped this one enough .

3)  Meta-Compulsions:   Isn't this essentially what the Whelming is? 

Compulsions specifically work the soul. Whelming is closer to the Tekne than Sorcery. If the Outside inhabits the individuals, then the Compulsions hijack that link before the soul.

My thoughts on the Whelming are that it's like an idealized version of mythological hypnotism.

Couple this with dream communication.  Moenghus was able to communicate via dream, even though he was supposedly weak in the water, all the way to Ishual.  Kellhus would have been easily more adept at this kind of thing.  My postulation, in this instance, is that he could have dream-contacted the people he knew before he left and put the whammy on them (scientific term here).  In this scenario, once he had them firmly under his control, he may have used them the purge the rest of the Dunyain, leaving only those loyal to him left.  Then he shows up, completes their whelming, destroys Ishual and inserts his slaves into his army.  Others have postulated that there may be full Dunyain under Kel's control.  Not my idea, but if that were true, maybe this is how he did it.

I want to know who Kellhus' resources in Momemn are. Kelmomas certainly gets information about how the Ordeal fights and the formations and battle-tactics of the Schools. But definitely, there will be the Ministrate, Compulsed agents, hell, Kellhus might even have made preemptive deals with different Cults to affect that they are rebels.

2)  Meta-Daimos:

That we are going to see some Demonic sorcery or other seems inevitable, with both Kellhus having walked the Outside and Iyokus being on the Ordeal, but I never envisioned something of this scale until you brought the possibility up.

The Hundred has been voiced a couple times as a possibility. And that would make Meppa (and the Cishaurim by extension) right when he declares the Hundred Ciphrang.

Akka reflects that Gnostic dream communication is impossible unless you know the exact location of the dreamer.  Anagogic and gnostic dream communication is only shown between two sorcerers (but that is possibly because of the impiety associated with sorcery).  Moe sent dreams a whole bunch of dunyain at the same time.

Kellhus could easily have planned to have regularly napping Few around. Also, the Glossary isn't so selective (it suggests that more than you only need to have been the place before to contact any sleepers therein) and Achamian's experience in TWP suggests that he wanders through the different nightmares of multiple Mandate Schoolman before finding the dreaming Nautzera.

After all the time he had to hone his sorcerous skills, I'd expect awesome overpowered moves once the ordeal meets some really powerful enemy!
Meta-gnosis: As far as offensive capabilities we've seen next to nothing. At least nothing specific. There never was a scene like: “Kellhus uses Meta-Gnostic cant X which does X”. But we can assume he would be extremely powerful.

That actually sounds like Bakker writing-formula, DN . I could see that exact sentence in TUC.

The Consult must have been preparing too! I bet they’re busy digging another very deep hole thinking “Hey it worked once, didn’t it?” XD

+1 - Can't wait.

P.S.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling mistakes, still learning :-P

I don't think anyone would have/will question your English skills.

Also important is that he was the first to do so (after Kel, of course), implying there are more sorcerers capable of meta-gnostic cants.

+1

To the second point, my belief is that the Scarlet Spires were aware of the shadow way and would have erected wards to combat it.  Seems no one ever expected transposition to be a possibility, so they were taken completely unawares.

Reaching .

[Somnambulist]

To the second point, my belief is that the Scarlet Spires were aware of the shadow way and would have erected wards to combat it.  Seems no one ever expected transposition to be a possibility, so they were taken completely unawares.

Reaching .

Onkis rules my heart 

[Francis Buck]

For some reason I always just assumed that Moe figured out some kind of Psukhe form of teleportation, although thinking about it now, that probably doesn't make sense as we haven't heard anything about it.

ETA: Agreed about the meta-daimos though. I think we're definitely going to be seeing some crazy daimotic shit going down in TUC, and I'm also a believer that the Hundred (or some of them, anyway) will be brought into reality, either forced to by someone or by their own hand. I actually think the final battle of the series will essentially boil down to The Consult/Everyone who wants to stop damnation versus a combined force of humanity fighting for and/or with the Gods.

[Callan S.]

Do we have any information about metagnostic casters getting tired when they teleport? To be honest I thought they hadn't even achieved that? I miss reading something?

I'll go through my reasoning.  So, the first cant Kel wants Akka to teach him is a cant of calling, which he then turns into a cant of transposing by adding a second inutteral string, thus making it a meta-gnostic cant.  Fast-forward 20 years.  There are a couple of descriptives in the text (both in TJE and TWP) which indicate that the limitation of transposing is horizon to horizon.  This is illustrated by Serwa and her jumps with Sorweel and Little Moe.  She's half-Dunyain and a meta-gnostic witch.  She's able to do this 2-4 times a day.  Saccarees is described as the first sorcerer to utter a meta-gnostic cant.  Assuming he's world-born (and not a Dunyain plant, as some have suggested), he also should be able to perform a cant of transposing, theoretically.  Also important is that he was the first to do so (after Kel, of course), implying there are more sorcerers capable of meta-gnostic cants.  My hypothesis is that world-born sorcerers need line of sight (i.e., horizon to horizon), whereas Kel can hold a destination in his mind (because of his superior mental faculties) and thus doesn't need to see his destination physically to transpose to it.  Transposing is arduous, though, which is probably why we don't see world-born sorcerers using it (yet).  Crackpot?

In terms of piecing together evidence rather than direct text, your hypothesis sounds plausible. Though I wonder about the conveniently 'tiring' aspect - I wonder if Serwa was simply taught a weakened version of the cant. Teleportation really aint going to weaken you - not in the physical sense. Either you come through fine, or you come through with tears throughout your body, leading to brain clots and death (my estimate, anyway). I'd suspect she was taught a version that actually casts a very light 'tiring' hex upon herself. To keep up the game of second guessing by both sides.

It's weird how he can automaton like do all this while apparently mad as a hatter.

[Wilshire]

Esmenet suggests that Kellhus can only move to places he can see from a distance or that he knows well to whatever degree. Kellhus had given his last sermon above Shimeh, with the city strategically behind him (I'm sure Dunyain have a kind of eidetic memory).

Quote from Madness, my bold for emphasis.  Kind of puts a whole in the theory a bit and explains why he could jump to Shimeh from underground.

As for distance, I think there might something there. The horizon limitation seems kind of thrown in there. When you send dreams, distance has no meaning. Place matters, but the distance itself doesn't seem to limit the communication. If the transportation cant is basically an upgraded cant of calling, I don't see why distance would then be a limiting factor.

Maybe for mere mortals, maybe, but certainly not for Kellhus.

[Francis Buck]

Do we have any information about metagnostic casters getting tired when they teleport? To be honest I thought they hadn't even achieved that? I miss reading something?

I'll go through my reasoning.  So, the first cant Kel wants Akka to teach him is a cant of calling, which he then turns into a cant of transposing by adding a second inutteral string, thus making it a meta-gnostic cant.  Fast-forward 20 years.  There are a couple of descriptives in the text (both in TJE and TWP) which indicate that the limitation of transposing is horizon to horizon.  This is illustrated by Serwa and her jumps with Sorweel and Little Moe.  She's half-Dunyain and a meta-gnostic witch.  She's able to do this 2-4 times a day.  Saccarees is described as the first sorcerer to utter a meta-gnostic cant.  Assuming he's world-born (and not a Dunyain plant, as some have suggested), he also should be able to perform a cant of transposing, theoretically.  Also important is that he was the first to do so (after Kel, of course), implying there are more sorcerers capable of meta-gnostic cants.  My hypothesis is that world-born sorcerers need line of sight (i.e., horizon to horizon), whereas Kel can hold a destination in his mind (because of his superior mental faculties) and thus doesn't need to see his destination physically to transpose to it.  Transposing is arduous, though, which is probably why we don't see world-born sorcerers using it (yet).  Crackpot?

In terms of piecing together evidence rather than direct text, your hypothesis sounds plausible. Though I wonder about the conveniently 'tiring' aspect - I wonder if Serwa was simply taught a weakened version of the cant. Teleportation really aint going to weaken you - not in the physical sense. Either you come through fine, or you come through with tears throughout your body, leading to brain clots and death (my estimate, anyway). I'd suspect she was taught a version that actually casts a very light 'tiring' hex upon herself. To keep up the game of second guessing by both sides.

It's weird how he can automaton like do all this while apparently mad as a hatter.

Indeed. That's why I don't for a second think Kellhus is truly mad, but only (ironically) by Dunyain standards. The only person that considers him mad is Moe, and he couldn't grasp the TTT. Kellhus did. I feel like this may end up being one of the bigger connections to Dune in the series. Moenghus (Paul Muad'dib), the father of the God-Emperor Kellhus (Leto), and instigator of the Shortest Path (Golden Path), started a plan he thought would work, but he didn't have the balls to really go through with it. Kellhus (Leto) does. Years later, Moe (the Preacher, sun burnt and disguised, conveniently vague about his past) is returning to oppose his son, not realizing that Kellhus (Leto) is actually doing something far greater than he had ever imagined. What that is exactly, I do not know. But overall, I think that's a serious possibility about where the story is headed.

[locke]

Do we have any information about metagnostic casters getting tired when they teleport? To be honest I thought they hadn't even achieved that? I miss reading something?

I'll go through my reasoning.  So, the first cant Kel wants Akka to teach him is a cant of calling, which he then turns into a cant of transposing by adding a second inutteral string, thus making it a meta-gnostic cant.  Fast-forward 20 years.  There are a couple of descriptives in the text (both in TJE and TWP) which indicate that the limitation of transposing is horizon to horizon.  This is illustrated by Serwa and her jumps with Sorweel and Little Moe.  She's half-Dunyain and a meta-gnostic witch.  She's able to do this 2-4 times a day.  Saccarees is described as the first sorcerer to utter a meta-gnostic cant.  Assuming he's world-born (and not a Dunyain plant, as some have suggested), he also should be able to perform a cant of transposing, theoretically.  Also important is that he was the first to do so (after Kel, of course), implying there are more sorcerers capable of meta-gnostic cants.  My hypothesis is that world-born sorcerers need line of sight (i.e., horizon to horizon), whereas Kel can hold a destination in his mind (because of his superior mental faculties) and thus doesn't need to see his destination physically to transpose to it.  Transposing is arduous, though, which is probably why we don't see world-born sorcerers using it (yet).  Crackpot?

In terms of piecing together evidence rather than direct text, your hypothesis sounds plausible. Though I wonder about the conveniently 'tiring' aspect - I wonder if Serwa was simply taught a weakened version of the cant. Teleportation really aint going to weaken you - not in the physical sense. Either you come through fine, or you come through with tears throughout your body, leading to brain clots and death (my estimate, anyway). I'd suspect she was taught a version that actually casts a very light 'tiring' hex upon herself. To keep up the game of second guessing by both sides.

It's weird how he can automaton like do all this while apparently mad as a hatter.

I like that idea of a 'tiring hex.

alternatively, perhaps teleportation has a sort of radiation effect, meaning as radiation penetrates solids, teleporting does something similar because of the displacement when you reappear...

teleport enough times, get cancer and die.