Madness - Do you actually think Kellhus will go back to the New Empire? ... Nothing more.
The issue for me becomes one of "how much does the narrative move?" Is this Bakker's longest book because of sheer amount of content, info-dumping (what with probable POVs in Ishterebinth and from the Consult)? Is it longest book because a lot happens? If TAE is one book, is TUC the second half or the latter third?
The majority of all my current speculation (across threads) really assumes that the Ordeal doesn't make it past Dagliash in TUC. They win or lose there but that TAE capstone of TUC is going to resemble the end of TWP more than TTT.
So if the Ordeal doesn't make it past Dagliash, then I 100% believe Kellhus will go to Momemn and TUC will end with Kellhus having some anti-climatic (hardly) style conversation with Meppa while the Ordeal fights at Dagliash (and probably, we'll get confirmation on exactly how far Kellhus can transpose with one Cant).
Back to Yatwer for a moment...
As much as I like the series and this fifth book, I find Yatwer kind of maddening because it seems confusing. I'm not sure what to make of any of the Yatwerian elements. The WLW himself, whoever/whatever he is, is confusing. Sorweel's alleged annointment by Yatwer is confusing next to it almost as if there are two WLW's.
I think, Sorweel is Narindar, not the Warrior.
I also find it interesting but confusing that Mimara says a prayer to Yatwer near the end of the book. Is that an old habit from someone who grew up Inrithi? And since we now know that Yatwer is real, is this prayer more significant in any way?
Mimara wears a Circumfix taken from the battleground of the Battle of the Horde for the latter half of WLW. She thinks of the symbol as false yet suggests that even false symbols afford some kind of protection (whether this is the general fear of God that humans experience with some religious iconography as she takes it off before Galian goes to rape her).
I also think that's a second or third Yatwer notation in Mimara's POV.
One of my fears about this series is that a lot of these things won't become much clearer...
Lol, how is that a fear? Imagine a series, so well written, that you don't figure things out before the conclusion (TSTSNBN) yet spawns this monument to our collective Nerdanels (not to mention, the Hoard at Westeros and ZTS).
Madness - Do you actually think Kellhus will go back to the New Empire?
I can't see why he wouldn't return. After all, if he wins and survives, where else would he go? Zeum?
Yeah, I'm definitely talking about
before the Ordeal's conclusion. Since Kellhus' only objective (in my mind) is trying his hand at the Tekne, I don't believe he returns from that. I am expecting a Tekne transformation.
whereby, Kellhus makes himself immortal... Omg... I've destroyed my brain. 3000 year Tekne-Kellhus and generations of Achamian goulas. Fuck, the trial has broken me...
On that note, I do wonder how Kellhus knows what's still going on in the Empire. He tells Proyas pretty much exactly what happened between Maithanet and Esmenet. Can he follow what's going on via some sorcery like the seeing fire? Or is he in contact with someone? And if so, who?
Can't remember if their conversation happened with fire around. I image if he can watch all the great ordeal fires, he could have cast a little spell on those back home.
I don't think there is any explicit limit to the Seeing-Flame, yet. However, I do think when Maithanet died, his final words were not for Esmenet's ears...
I also find it interesting but confusing that Mimara says a prayer to Yatwer near the end of the book. Is that an old habit from someone who grew up Inrithi? And since we now know that Yatwer is real, is this prayer more significant in any way?
I think we are supposed to assume that it is an old habit. She was a pennyless whore, thats kind of Yater's whole thing.
I don't think that Yatwer is any less real than any of the other gods. Her existance makes me believe that there are others, so a prayer to her is no more special than any other.
So you two have ruled out Mimara being Yatwerian Holy?
One of my fears about this series is that a lot of these things won't become much clearer...
I'd be very surprised if nothing was cleared up by the end, but equally surprised if everything was explained. There will be plenty of stuff for us to argue about once TUC is released.
Yeah, I do think TAE as a whole is going to mirror the feeling at the end of TWP. Answers that make us question everything
.
slightly unrelated, but the god talk made me connect Kellhus' seeing flame with the story of the man who shoved his face into Husyelt's fire. Same thing, I think, but do we compare Kellhus to Husyelt or to the man?
Seems clear that as per the story's analogy, Kellhus is God to Proyas as servant.
Well Serwe prayed a lot and kept getting her prayers answered, so I'd think we would see a similar result and a similar level of significance in the prayers of Serwe and Mimara.
+1. I'm beginning to think many have decided that the Kiunnat Gods are Ciphrang (that is, inherently evil)... it's interesting to watch.
Forward moving time, where what comes before determines what comes after, is a very hard narrative design to escape from. And Kellhus and the Dunyain are certainly very trapped within that perconception even as other agencies and entities are not.
Well, it is interesting to note that while many of us experience time as moving forward, we don't all similarly feel that way. We describe time differently based on cultural or social filters, injuries, disease, which all can affect our perception, thus, our description.
Also, since it's my understanding that Bakker has had the ending planned all along - what comes after determines what comes before and that truly, as an author anyways, seems the harder of the two to bend/escape.
