[The Sharmat]

I didn't mean it so literally. His version of the gnosis did seem to be tinged by the apparent basic metaphysical crux of the Psukhe-blindness followed by passion and deadening of the signs of sorcery, and it seems to have enhanced his gnostic cants. But no belief in a solitary God was required for that much.

[Blackstone]

I didn't mean it so literally. His version of the gnosis did seem to be tinged by the apparent basic metaphysical crux of the Psukhe-blindness followed by passion and deadening of the signs of sorcery, and it seems to have enhanced his gnostic cants. But no belief in a solitary God was required for that much.

I don't see any comparison between the two. Titirga had a "washed" Mark (as opposed to no Mark) and if it's purity of meaning that makes him so powerful, then that would be the opposite of the Psukhe, which relies on the intensity of passion for power.

[The Sharmat]

I don't see any comparison between the two.

They both appear less flawed than conventional sorcery.

and if it's purity of meaning that makes him so powerful, then that would be the opposite of the Psukhe, which relies on the intensity of passion for power.

The intensity of passion is what Kellhus alleges gives them the purity of meaning. The feeling is so close to the God's own voice that it is indistinguishable from the world as the God created it.

[Blackstone]

I don't see any comparison between the two.

They both appear less flawed than conventional sorcery.

and if it's purity of meaning that makes him so powerful, then that would be the opposite of the Psukhe, which relies on the intensity of passion for power.

The intensity of passion is what Kellhus alleges gives them the purity of meaning. The feeling is so close to the God's own voice that it is indistinguishable from the world as the God created it.

I still think there's a pretty wide gulf between a mark being "washed," which sounds like it's faded vs the Cishaurim, who have no mark.

I'll concede your second point to a degree but we have no indication that Titirga's passion (or lack of) has bearing on his ability in sorcery.

[The Sharmat]

It's an educated guess more than a real theory, I grant you.

[themerchant]

It's cause he was blind when "the white" found him. He goes mad when he cants and siezes things he shouldn't. (i think that's the quote)

the last bit might tie in with what Kellhus tells Proyas about the demon heads. 2 types of revelation, those that sieze (priest) those that are siezed (sorcerer).

Also Bakker said somewhere that it's at times of extreme emotional stress that folk "use magic" presumably the "Psukhe".

[Blackstone]

It's cause he was blind when "the white" found him. He goes mad when he cants and siezes things he shouldn't. (i think that's the quote)

the last bit might tie in with what Kellhus tells Proyas about the demon heads. 2 types of revelation, those that sieze (priest) those that are siezed (sorcerer).

Also Bakker said somewhere that it's time of extreme emotional stress that folk "use magic" presumably the "Psukhe".

Yeah, I see that, but when I think about it logically, the two still don't seem comparable. Titirga was blind when they found him, which I think could be a reason why his meanings were so pure even after he gained his sight. I don't think blinding a Mandate schoolman as an adult that had vision his entire life would increase his level of power. It was my understanding (and I could be wrong) that part of the reason Cishaurim blind themselves is to prove their faith (which in turn is an indicator of their passion).

[The Sharmat]

We never really are told for sure why the Cishaurim blind themselves in those terms, aside from some vague thing about it allowing them to see better in another way or something. Although technically, we never hear the Cishaurim talk about their metaphysics at all. Just hypotheses from Kellhus. Titirga is, actually, the only way any of Kellhus' claims are substantiated at all.

[themerchant]

It's cause he was blind when "the white" found him. He goes mad when he cants and siezes things he shouldn't. (i think that's the quote)

the last bit might tie in with what Kellhus tells Proyas about the demon heads. 2 types of revelation, those that sieze (priest) those that are siezed (sorcerer).

Also Bakker said somewhere that it's time of extreme emotional stress that folk "use magic" presumably the "Psukhe".

Yeah, I see that, but when I think about it logically, the two still don't seem comparable. Titirga was blind when they found him, which I think could be a reason why his meanings were so pure even after he gained his sight. I don't think blinding a Mandate schoolman as an adult that had vision his entire life would increase his level of power. It was my understanding (and I could be wrong) that part of the reason Cishaurim blind themselves is to prove their faith (which in turn is an indicator of their passion).

The only thing i recall about the Cish is Kellhus saying they blind themselves(the one angle they see) to better recollect the portions they do not see. I'll try and find it as i don't recall the exact quote.


from Bakker himself: "the Psukhe utilizes the impetus. Practitioners of the Psukhe blind themselves to see through the what and grasp the how, the pure performative kernel of meaning–the music, the passion, or as the Cishaurim call it, the ‘Water.’"


From Kellhus:"The Warrior‐Prophet shrugged. "Think of the way a fire will shroud the world in the course of

illuminating a camp. Often the light of what we see blinds us, and we come to think there is one

angle and one angle only. Though they know it not, this is why the Cishaurim blind themselves.

They douse the fire of their eyes, pluck the one angle they see, to better grasp the many they

recollect. They sacrifice the subtle articulations of knowledge for the inchoate profundities of

intuition. They recall the tone and timbre, the passion, of the God's voice—to near perfection—

even as the meanings that make up true sorcery escape them."

And there it was: the mysteries of the Psûkhe, which had baffled sorcerous thinkers for centuries,

dispelled in a handful of words."

Whatever it all means

[The Sharmat]

Nil'Giccas says something very similar in Cil-Aujas, about why the Nonmen find the dark holy. Light blinds.

[mrganondorf]

@ Wilshire - I'm not sure I could provide the proof you want!  My reading is that Moenghus is playing a role for the whole conversation.  I think that everything he says is a lie.

I agree with you that not even a Dunyain could track every possibility, but the possibility that Kellhus would be broken by the trial would be a big big possibility to ignore.  Anywayz, I thinks Moe manufactured the breakdown.  I read that final conversation as Moe speaking semi-scripted lines to test if Kellhus will produce the predicted responses.  Playing weak is a Dunyain thing!

Hi Blackstone!  I find Serwe so fascinating.  Maybe she'll be blinded and become a necromancer or Cishaurim.

I'm in the camp that Moe really was weak for a Cishaurim and that the Psukhe is (on average) one of the weaker magics. I think Moe chose the longest path.

If there was ever a chance to see the Meta-Psukhe, I think it would be with Serwa. She is the only one of the (half) Dunyain to show the requisite passion that would be necessary to be powerful in that magic. But doesn't it require passion in regards to the Solitary God?

Meta-Psukhe --> KELMOMAS

Meppa raises this crazed child to be humanity's last shot against the Whirlwind!

[EkyannusIII]

If there was ever a chance to see the Meta-Psukhe, I think it would be with Serwa. She is the only one of the (half) Dunyain to show the requisite passion that would be necessary to be powerful in that magic. But doesn't it require passion in regards to the Solitary God?

That should have been Maithanet's moment of awesome.  Instead Bakker wasted him.

[Cynical Cat]

Lets not get confused over how the Psuhke works and the existence of the Solitary God.  The Psuhke's work is, to the best of our knowledge, completely independent of the existence or non-existence of the Solitary God.  The Cishaurim believe that their sorcery is the Water of Indara, but Kelhous's explanation indicates that's not how their sorcery functions.   Titirga and Fane were both blind men finding sorcery, but Fane also experienced religious revelation while Titirga did not and was instead cured of his blindness and educated as a Gnostic Schoolman.  His stain is probably reduced because he has better recollection of the other angles and so his sorcery more closely resembles creation. 

[Madness]

The Cishaurim believe that their sorcery is the Water of Indara, but Kelhous's explanation indicates that's not how their sorcery functions.

At this point, either/neither explanation is still possibly false?

instead cured of his blindness

Always wondered about this. I like locke's thought about vitamin deficiency but I do wonder if there isn't another in-world context that explains it.

[Callan S.]

I think Kellhus's explanation is probably wrong - the Cish blind themselves so as to concentrate on what should be, not what is.

That's the contradiction regular sorcery runs into - that they want to change what is, but they want to change it in order to suit other things which just are. For example, walking across the sky - they want to change that you can't walk across the sky, but they want to keep the thing that is - ie, the sorcerer, intact and as is.

The sorcerous mark and damnation may well be separate things. The mark just being the accumulation of contradictions between changing what is but at the same time keeping what is.