[dragharrow]

I'm trying to think about this and I have a few questions that I can't remember the answers to.

Are we given a depiction of Kellhus' mark? I feel like I would remember it if we were.
Did Fain perform acts of healing and creation?

I want to believe that the Cish can perform something like constructive magic. We never see what the day to day bearing of the water looks like we only see them spill the water. Spilling the water is obviously destructive but it is no way their prime function. While they are very powerful they are not intended to be soldiers. They bear meaning. Sorcery is involved. There could be something there.

Also, I would posit that Kellhus' haloed hands and precognition are in the family of divine thaumaturgy and not sorcery.

[Madness]

Startled, Achamian glanced back to the stair, saw Kellhus descend to the first landing ... It was strange - even terrifying - to sense the Mark on him as well. It dirtied him somehow, even as it augured an unthinkable future.

We don't know if Fane performed acts of healing or creation, so all is fair nerdaneling there.

As for Kellhus' halos and precognition:

Callan made a good catch in another thread when I quoted Mimara seeing herself with the Judging Eye; her head halo is silver. And Kellhus' probability trance gives a decent account of why he can summaries what will happen but... I think, you are referring to "the Whore will be kind," and I definitely think this could be a moment of thaumaturgy (i.e. the God, the Gods, or Fate speaking through Kellhus - I'd compare it to those moments where characters think or say things that are somehow involuntarily said or out of context for their pattern of thought; I can think of a handful spread across the series: Inrau, Achamian, Sorweel).

However, I personally don't think Kellhus is divinely ordained (I'm on the fence but I'm clinging to nerdanels years old). A Dunyain beset by emotions, or self-preservation, maybe...

[Cüréthañ]

If the depth of the mark relates to strength, then how could Zioz be defeated by Akka? 

I'm fairly confident that the ciphrang bear the deepest mark of all, and despite the fact that they seem to use analogies, their application of sorcery appears similar to the psukhe (and in turn, tears it apart).
_{(TTT ch15 pg 325 US hardcover)}

[Francis Buck]

Was Zioz straight up defeated by Achamian? This was something I was never clear on myself. Don't have the book (or my Kindle) at hand, but isn't the resolution to that conflict really vague?

Regardless, we know that he at least managed to overpower Ankaryotis in TWP with sheer magical strength. Though the mechanics of "defeating a Ciphrang" remain vague for me as well. Can you actually kill them? Do you just beat them to the point that they're sent back to the Outside? Which of these does a Chorae do? I assume they must be able to be killed in some fashion, since I know Zioz says, "Perhaps I'll die," to Iyokus when the latter mentions that there will be far more powerful Cishaurim the demon will have to face.

[Duskweaver]

If a Ciphrang can be killed (in the sense of 'permanently destroyed' rather than merely 'sent home'), then there's a pretty obvious loophole for a Daimotic sorcerer to escape being tortured for eternity by his own former pets when he dies. That makes me think permanently destroying a Ciphrang is probably not possible.

[Wilshire]

I want to say that I remember "banished" being mentioned somewhere when talking about ciphrang, but thats probably just wishful thinking. I agree with Dusk. Not nearly as terrifying  if you are free if it dies... Why not just have a Javreh throw a chorae at it.

[Borric]

I always assumed the depth of a mark was an accumulation of sin.

As for Tigra, he was blind as a child?
That fact was what I guessed to be the reason for his different mark.

As for who is dammed?
It could be as simple as the Cish have no mark, so their faith is the true one?

[Wilshire]

It could be as simple as the Cish have no mark, so their faith is the true one?

Certainly could be that simple. It feels quite Bakkerish to have everyone from all history be damned except the Cishaurim, who were all murmured anyway, with no chance of redemption.

But its way less fun to speculate about simple answers 

[Dracostar]

As we know that all practicing sorcerers (bar Cishaurim) seem to be damned, does Inrau's unexpected use of sorcery for self defence just before the end of his life damn him, despite his choosing of priesthood over sorcery?

[Cüréthañ]

Dracostar; Can't remember where, but pretty sure RSB confirmed Inrau was damned because of that use of sorcery out of text.  Anyone with a better memory want to confirm?

Even given the assumption, it's important to remember;  the Mark == damned, damned =/= the Mark. 

It's an and/or logic gate which leaves the Cish quite open to being damned in other ways or for other reasons. 

[locke]

Inrau was already damned as a result of his education by akka.  When he realizes that he flees the mandate for the priesthood in a futile attempt to   save his soul.

[Cüréthañ]

You are right locke.

I found the 3C's thread where Scott asserts that Inrau is damned.  He pretty much confirms that learning the denotaries would have be enough.
The timing of his damnation is otherwise unclear.

Now that I reread it, it does actually seem to allow that Onkis may have been able to intercede, ala Psatma's conversation with Meppa.
(re: the basis for his conversion).

Interesting that Akka avoids teaching such minor cants to Mim before she has her rethink.

http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/1005

[Dracostar]

Is it possible that Onkis could not intervene as she did not recognise the threat of the skin-spies, considering they lack a soul? I believe Maitha stated this was the same reason the Hundred could not comprehend the No-God, which was why they considered Kellhus a demon.

[Madness]

As we know that all practicing sorcerers (bar Cishaurim) seem to be damned, does Inrau's unexpected use of sorcery for self defence just before the end of his life damn him, despite his choosing of priesthood over sorcery?

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Dracostar.

I think other's have covered the inquiry to the best known rationale.

On the Ciphrang thoughts upthread:

Fall upon them! the Voice screeched. Rend them! Only in their midst will you be safe from the Chorae!

...

Setmahaga fell first, struck in the eye by an absence affixed to the end of a stick. An explosion of burning salt...

Flee!

Then Sohorat, his slavering form caught in torrents of light, screamed.

Weak...
There are others, the Voice said. Far, far stronger.
Perhaps I will die.
You are too mighty.
Perhaps you will die with me... Iyokus.

And in the end it grovelled beneath his song, cringed like a beaten animal, then faded into blackness...

As far as we know, the Chorae explicitly seems to permanently change their state (as per the Voice and the Salting?). Why sorcerers wouldn't just summon Ciphrang they were done with and Chorae them, who knows? Maybe, they do and the Scarlet Spires practice a strict disposal policy so that only mistakes or lack of skill get Schoolmen damned by Ciphrang.

Also, seems to indicate that a powerful enough sorcerer can "kill" a Ciphrang (implied by the fear of the Cishaurim - the one Ciphrang seems to have been attacked beyond his ken - and if anyone kills one by sorcery, it's Achamian in TWP).

So... the definitions remain pretty much up in the air still... Lol.

Is it possible that Onkis could not intervene as she did not recognise the threat of the skin-spies, considering they lack a soul? I believe Maitha stated this was the same reason the Hundred could not comprehend the No-God, which was why they considered Kellhus a demon.

Curethan, I think, is referring to this quote, which some of us think satisfies preceding conditions for Divine communication, especially after the Revelation of the Gods in TAE:

The small scroll clattered to the floor. The silence was complete, oppressive. His heart ached, so much was at stake. These were the events upon which the world turned. Enough for a Goddess.

"Please... Speak to me."

Nothing.

Tears branched across his face. He raised his arms, held them open until his shoulders burned.

"Anything!" he cried.

Run, his thoughts whispered. Run.

Such a coward! How could he be such a coward? Something behind him. The sound of flapping wings! Like the flutter of cloth among the towering pillars.

He turned his face to the shadowy ceiling, searching with his ears. Another flutter. Somewhere up in the clerestory. His skin prickled.

Is that you?

No.

Always doubting, why was he always doubting?

As far as I read it, we know that Onkis specifically is the Goddess who come before men in their thoughts. Onkis might not recognize the skin-spies but she'd recognize the simulacrum of Aurang in the Synthese. Inrau's own doubt of Inrithi metaphysics dooms him to misinterpret obvious communication from the Goddess .

[EDIT: I know Duskweaver's pointed out the "branching tears" but anyone notice the "flutter of" metaphor as Inrau first hears the Synthese's wings... Thinking of the Cishaurim showing up the Scarlet Spires.]

[Cüréthañ]

I was also referring to the idea that the hundred can intervene to redeem those who would otherwise be damned.  (Put forth by Psatma in text and supported by other statements from Scott on Z3C's.) 

The fact the Onkis is possibly paying enough attention to Inrau to warn him might indicate that she would also accept his soul were he to reach - despite the fact that his damnation is tied to sorcery.