So I have wanted to chip in on this thread since it's inception but it caught me at a busy time of the year.
Also, this post specifically isn't informed by research that I'm sure is out there. Last time I tried to respond to this thread I got caught up reading Durkheim
. And I wanted to watch the whole Gleeson clip and haven't had a chance to make it all the way through. So I feel my uninformed commentary may cover some of the original post and I apologize for that.
I was talking to my sister about celebrity culture, and how it doesn't seem that hard to get really into it.
For example, I avoid reality television not only because a lot of it is trash but because I can easily get caught up in watching hours of it. It doesn't even have to be in English - in fact Korean TV is addicting to me in a weird ASMR way.
Bakker always analogies to gossip and the, possibly, more functional role it played in smaller communities; referring to it's environment of evolutionary adaptedness. But celebrity culture co-opts some innate mechanism or else, arguably, it wouldn't be so prevalent and occur so viciously.
ASMR... Mmm.
Interesting question!
I myself have not much respect for "reality" TV ... i find it one of the basest (and not in a good way) forms of entertainment. The intellectual level of those show is most often the lowest possible...i really can't stand it. I find it a sad state of affairs that they are so popular.
+1
So to answer your question - i think that no one on this forum would become a idol defender in any form. Ok, maybe we'd defend Scott 
But jokes aside...i just think that this is not happening to people who know and use their mind often...ok sounds weird...what i mean is, if you are someone who reflects often about his own life, the universe and whatever-else (like we do, just look at the threads we have ) then you do not normally defend persons or ideas (because, honestly, you do not really know your idols...you just "worship" an idea, really) just because.
It's an interesting reflection. I actually would be guilty, I think, of thoughtlessly defending Bakker - though as you've mentioned, Kellais, even typing makes me reflect that I would probably be careful first to understand those of Bakker's words that I'm defending.
Did this post sound arrogant? I guess it does...at least a bit. But that's how i feel...without wanting to imply that this makes me (or anyone else who feels that way) in any way superior to anyone.
You can have perfectly reasonable persons going on a hysteria-fit just because you offended Bieber (or whoever) and...i just find that totally weird.
Hah. Arrogant people rarely ask if they seem arrogant
.
Are they perfectly reasonable people for liking Bieber's (et al.) creations?
I think the whole idea behind "reality TV" is to provide the viewer with the notion that he is smart/intelligent. Most people want to feel smart right?. So they mash together a bunch of idiots(or actors acting as idiots?) so that the viewer feels smarter than them. This will lead to people tuning in more and more to get that feeling of smartness. The most ironic thing about it all is the title "reality TV". Can you really get further from reality than these shows? And the notion that you can watch "reality" on TV is also kind of contradictory 
That's an interesting perspective, though, I think it's straying from the sci's original post. I don't think sci meant "reality TV," exclusively.
But in terms of celebrity culture (for instance, real-life caricatures who hate on Gemma or Tara from
Sons of Anarchy/insert character x over their favorite y), is it emotional or intellectual empathy (or both) that predict attachment - to the point of thoughtlessly, like I think sci was asking.
Looking at Jack Gleeson's evaluation of celebrity culture or the discussions of Jennifer Lawrence as America's new best friend makes me wonder how easy it would be for any of us to attach ourselves to a fandom and become more and more defensive about protecting our idol(s).
This is quite inevitable IMO. When you idolize, you see that person as a "part" of you. When someone is attacking him, they are also attacking you. I do not think that it is possible not to idolize at all, because the persona you have spent years to create, consists of ideas from other people. You will defend these ideas/people because they represent you in many ways. I think it is healthy to let your idols die now and again, and replace them with new ones to gain new perspective. Stick with one idol and you are fanatic right?
These thoughts hit more to the crux of the experience... I'm always struck by Achamian's thoughts in the Sareotic Library when he thinks about how some authors who used to strike at the core of his soul, no longer do.
I think there's more here but for now...
Its the modern equivalent of the minstrel show.
+1
This is quite inevitable IMO. When you idolize, you see that person as a "part" of you. When someone is attacking him, they are also attacking you. I do not think that it is possible not to idolize at all, because the persona you have spent years to create, consists of ideas from other people. You will defend these ideas/people because they represent you in many ways. I think it is healthy to let your idols die now and again, and replace them with new ones to gain new perspective. Stick with one idol and you are fanatic right?
I have to disagree. I do not think that idolization is something inevitable. I never idolized anyone. I have some authors or artists i like and where i appreciate their works and efforts....but idolizing them, no. I think it is an even stronger form than being a fan...and even that can get unhealthy (look at all the sport-club nuts that destroy stuff and hit each other over a stupid game). So again, i do not think that everyone idolizes. So i think it is healthy to never have idols. Rolemodels when you are young, ok. But idols, no, thanks.
My high school is better than your high school? You never experienced that at all? Even if our "high school" (the forum) is actually so much better than others
.
I would ask how you distinguish between role models, mentors, and idols, Kellais? And fans (derived, after all, from fanatic)?
I'm in complete agreement with you, Kellais. I've never idolized anyone, nor do I plan to. To idolize is to make someone more than what they are. While I admire a great many people for their contributions to whatever it is they do, idolization is never a part of my feelings toward them. Idolization, frankly, scares the sh*t out of me. You're giving up part of yourself to some kind of utter belief in someone else, committing yourself to their cause, as it were. Maybe I've taken that too far, but there's a reason I identify more with Akka than any other character in the series. Eternal doubter, here.
Lol. My question on distinctions remains? I think operational definitions would help the clarity of this discussion.
I agree with both of you. I was not talking about worship in any form, if I made that impression. I could have used the word fan instead of idol, since we are talking about fandom .
Distinctions
.
What I tried to say is that if you are a fan of someone, either writer, artist, whatever, something in that person speaks to you. So you will to an extent defend him/her since at some level you are defending a part of yourself. If the artist, writer etc do not speak to you, you will ignore his/her work.
My point being that it is inevitable is that we all have someone who is speaking to us in a rare way. So if anyone is saying that Bakker is all bullshit and he is a rape lover, I will defend him, because Bakker speaks to me a certain way.
Hope that cleared it up a bit guys I can see in retrospect that my previous post came out a bit wrong, sorry about that.
To the bold, would you do that thoughtlessly? If I actually thought Bakker was a misogynist, I would rethink the effort I put into supporting him.
And the saddest moment is when the writer suddenly stops speaking to you and you realise what load of bullshit his work has become. Not Bakker, of course, but I've had this with one of our writers. I loved his early work, really, argued with people over it and although I've read everything he's written so far, his latest work was rather "Meh" for me.
Even sadder is that I've known this guy personally for almost 20 years, met him hundreds of times, had really great time listening to his stories and jokes... and at one point I realised our roads have diverged too much, so to say (his political views are the opposite of mine and he seems to get more extremist with every passing year).
Well, that's probably not exactly on topic, I just needed to share my story.
That's unfortunate, Alia. What author, if you don't mind me asking?
I wonder: to what extent is fandom like a lord/thegn relationship? Mark your territory! Display your colors! Pull down the master's rivals!
Lol - well, Bakker is a most absent Lord, if we are his thegns
.
