Meppa is X (II)

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Wilshire

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« Reply #165 on: April 05, 2016, 11:28:30 pm »
Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.
Fortuitous accidents happen all the time when science-ing.



Can you give me some real life examples.

the Skin Spies are said to be new and they managed to reproduce them.

Google it.

Off the top of my head, the look into the creation of post it notes, artificial sugar, and the entire field of modern medicine througo the discovery of penicillin. The list goes on and on.

It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.

Yeah this is the PROBLEM with the theory. who taught the skinspy sorcery. Specifically the Gnosis, only the Mandate and the Consult have Gnostic schools at the time. Various workarounds are using a soul that already knows it.

The Consult is run by a gnostic. Teaching a skin spy would be trivial.
If Moe made it, then he taught it, plain and simple. This is the least difficult problem here imo.

As for Cnaiur being involved with meppa, I doubt it as well. For one, we have a bakker interview stating that Cnaiur story arc is finished.
Aside from that, Cnaiur has passion, but so do tons of people I the three seas. That's not really a valid argument. It applies to too many people.

Any person that already knows the psukhe and saw their school get destroyed would have just as much passion as cnaiur. Seems far more likely that someone escaped Shimeh and got lost in the desert for a time, went crazy, and through said crazy and an danger and passion became meppa.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 11:41:15 pm by Wilshire »
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themerchant

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« Reply #166 on: April 05, 2016, 11:40:41 pm »
All replicated experiments those. It wasn't like they did something and had no idea how they did it or were unable to do it again.

However who taught it sorcery is the torpedo to that theory. So the above is irrelevant anyway :P


Wilshire

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« Reply #167 on: April 05, 2016, 11:43:51 pm »
All replicated experiments those. It wasn't like they did something and had no idea how they did it or were unable to do it again.

However who taught it sorcery is the torpedo to that theory. So the above is irrelevant anyway :P



Your question was to tell you what fortuitous accidents happened in science, not what single event happens once in science and never happened again. In that case, Google repeatability of famously science experiments. Tons of psychology studies and lots of medical case studies are non repeatable. It happens all the time. Or instead of google, try the science subforum here. There are discussions and articles posted on this very subject all over there.

The way humans do science is very unscientific most of the time


Who taught it sorcery is the easiest question to answer. I don't see how it's a torpedo to anything.

Also, I'm terribly dissapointed no one took up my earlier post :(
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 11:50:17 pm by Wilshire »
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themerchant

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« Reply #168 on: April 05, 2016, 11:50:41 pm »
I meant accidents that could not be replicated. Here is the conversation

"Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne"< me

"Fortuitous accidents happen all the time when science-ing"< you

Not being able to replicate the experiment has been my problem, not it happening randomly. Sorry if i wasn't more explicit.

It torpedos the idea of Moe teaching it, and possibly by extension any involvement by Moe in it's creation.

Wilshire

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« Reply #169 on: April 06, 2016, 12:09:53 am »
I meant accidents that could not be replicated. Here is the conversation
No worries, I was being needlessly specific to avoid the issue because I couldn't think of anything initially that satisfied your actual question. I tried to do a better job above. If you want links so you dont have to go hunting, let me know.



I doubt the quorum do much magic regardless.
If Moe can do soul transfers and is super powerful, then he can soul transfer a captured mandate schoolman, neuropincture him to do his bidding, wipe it's memories, and send it on back to the mandate. The skin spy wouldn't even know it was a spy, or that it wasn't even human for that matter.
Again, Moe being super powerful in the psukhe ruins the plot, as he can do, literally, anything to fix any situation. Because the psukhe is undetectable, no one would be the wiser, and because there is almost no text about the psukhe, there's nothing to disprove any theory about it (especially if we ignore everything the text tells us about it, which is necessary to reach the meta-moenghus theories to begin with).



On topic with Meppa, I think we'd be much better off looking for charaster like Mimara: someone who was mentioned vaguely earlier in the series but played almost no role, but then becomes central to the plot.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 01:27:56 am by Wilshire »
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Blackstone

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« Reply #170 on: April 06, 2016, 02:53:01 pm »
Moe had eyesight also, his snakes we're there the whole time. Another reason I believe he let him stab him. All I can say is Moe had a plan at Kyudea, everything was conditioned by him. Kellhus kicking of the fibrous skull is a hint that everything isn't as Kellhus thinks it is. That is the very place that Inri ascended. Maybe Moe is not Meppa, I think he is. Even if he isn't, something went down in that scene, of that I am certain.

Yes, he had his snakes. I don't think seeing through snakes would be the same or near as good as seeing through human eyes. Didn't Inri ascend in Shimeh? Isn't that the whole reason for wanting to retake the city?
I think you and I just disagree vastly on this, MSJ. I don't think anything happened here other than what we see. I suspect, if anything, this was setting up a reason as to why Kellhus might have destroyed the Dunyain in Ishual.


I doubt the quorum do much magic regardless.
If Moe can do soul transfers and is super powerful, then he can soul transfer a captured mandate schoolman, neuropincture him to do his bidding, wipe it's memories, and send it on back to the mandate. The skin spy wouldn't even know it was a spy, or that it wasn't even human for that matter.
Again, Moe being super powerful in the psukhe ruins the plot, as he can do, literally, anything to fix any situation. Because the psukhe is undetectable, no one would be the wiser, and because there is almost no text about the psukhe, there's nothing to disprove any theory about it (especially if we ignore everything the text tells us about it, which is necessary to reach the meta-moenghus theories to begin with).



On topic with Meppa, I think we'd be much better off looking for charaster like Mimara: someone who was mentioned vaguely earlier in the series but played almost no role, but then becomes central to the plot.

Agree. This is my problem with the Meta-Moe theory as well.
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Blackstone

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« Reply #171 on: April 06, 2016, 03:02:31 pm »
Why would they need the extra nudge of Maithanet showing them a skin spy in their midst? So that makes me think the whole thing was part of Moe's failed plan to take control of the Three Seas himself.
To be fair, if Moe and the Fanim won, the Mandate would basically need to capitulate to him instead. He's still an Anasurimbor.

Revealing Simas was just to ease that transition, but not all all necessary for his plans, regardless of the outcome. Why not teach the skin-spy sorcery himself and make it into some ultra-uber-meta-psukhe-gnositic-diamos wizard that he could wield to destroy the world, rather than sending it off to some dusty library to rot and then out it himself?

A tool of such fast importance and power would not be so easily disposed for no perceptible gain.

And, by the same arguments those of you posted above, if he did it once, why not do it a million times? Make a whole army, hell a whole nation, THE WORLD EVEN, of skin-spy Psukhari absolutely dominated by him and preciously attuned to his will?  They would be unconquerable, and he wouldn't need to send for his son off in Ishual to muck up his plans, or waste his time with silly Maithanet and his tenuous grasp on the Thousand Temples.

This is why the Meta-Moenghus argument is ridiculous. The Psukhe ruins the plot of the books if its allowed to continue. Having Moe be a master of the psukhe AND the tekne... C'mon. He only had 30 years wallowing in the basement of some old mansion with bad plumbing.

Yeah, if he had the ability to make sorcerous skin spies it would have made more sense to build an army of them.
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themerchant

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« Reply #172 on: April 06, 2016, 03:11:05 pm »
The appendix lists Kuydea as another possible place of ascension. It's either Shimeh on the spot that Esme gives birth to Kayûtas or where Moe dies.

I don't think Meppa is Moe, I think he is linked in some way though.

One thing though does Meppa actually have eyes behind his Geordi LaForge(engineer out of star trek) mask? I was reading a segment and it said his eyes hid behind the silver band. Might just be a turn of phrase though.


Blackstone

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« Reply #173 on: April 06, 2016, 04:06:35 pm »
The appendix lists Kuydea as another possible place of ascension. It's either Shimeh on the spot that Esme gives birth to Kayûtas or where Moe dies.

I don't think Meppa is Moe, I think he is linked in some way though.

One thing though does Meppa actually have eyes behind his Geordi LaForge(engineer out of star trek) mask? I was reading a segment and it said his eyes hid behind the silver band. Might just be a turn of phrase though.

Ha ha. Nice!

Do you have a page number for the "eyes" reference?
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MSJ

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« Reply #174 on: April 06, 2016, 04:19:34 pm »
The appendix lists Kuydea as another possible place of ascension. It's either Shimeh on the spot that Esme gives birth to Kayûtas or where Moe dies.

I don't think Meppa is Moe, I think he is linked in some way though.

One thing though does Meppa actually have eyes behind his Geordi LaForge(engineer out of star trek) mask? I was reading a segment and it said his eyes hid behind the silver band. Might just be a turn of phrase though.

I don't know where I heard it before, but where Moe died was directly beneath the spot Esme gave birth. Don't know if that's speculation or fact.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #175 on: April 06, 2016, 04:45:57 pm »
The appendix lists Kuydea as another possible place of ascension. It's either Shimeh on the spot that Esme gives birth to Kayûtas or where Moe dies.

I don't think Meppa is Moe, I think he is linked in some way though.

One thing though does Meppa actually have eyes behind his Geordi LaForge(engineer out of star trek) mask? I was reading a segment and it said his eyes hid behind the silver band. Might just be a turn of phrase though.

I don't know where I heard it before, but where Moe died was directly beneath the spot Esme gave birth. Don't know if that's speculation or fact.

Didn't she give birth on top of a temple in Shimeh?
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« Reply #176 on: April 06, 2016, 04:52:28 pm »
The appendix lists Kuydea as another possible place of ascension. It's either Shimeh on the spot that Esme gives birth to Kayûtas or where Moe dies.

I don't think Meppa is Moe, I think he is linked in some way though.

One thing though does Meppa actually have eyes behind his Geordi LaForge(engineer out of star trek) mask? I was reading a segment and it said his eyes hid behind the silver band. Might just be a turn of phrase though.

I don't know where I heard it before, but where Moe died was directly beneath the spot Esme gave birth. Don't know if that's speculation or fact.

Didn't she give birth on top of a temple in Shimeh?

Yeah, she did:

Quote
She had delivered him in Shimeh upon the Holy Juterum, where the Latter Prophet, Inri Sejenus, had ascended to the Heavens two thousand years previous.

Quote
Theliopa had come second, born in Nenciphon while Kellhus waged the first of many wars against the drugged princes of Nilnamesh.

Quote
Her third child by Kellhus, Serwa, was born in Carythusal with the smell of the Zaudunyani conquest still on the wind—soot and death.

The rest aren't specified, but it's kind of implied that they are born at the Andiamine Heights.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #177 on: April 06, 2016, 05:06:24 pm »
Moe had eyesight also, his snakes we're there the whole time. Another reason I believe he let him stab him. All I can say is Moe had a plan at Kyudea, everything was conditioned by him. Kellhus kicking of the fibrous skull is a hint that everything isn't as Kellhus thinks it is. That is the very place that Inri ascended. Maybe Moe is not Meppa, I think he is. Even if he isn't, something went down in that scene, of that I am certain.

Yes, he had his snakes. I don't think seeing through snakes would be the same or near as good as seeing through human eyes. Didn't Inri ascend in Shimeh? Isn't that the whole reason for wanting to retake the city?
I think you and I just disagree vastly on this, MSJ. I don't think anything happened here other than what we see. I suspect, if anything, this was setting up a reason as to why Kellhus might have destroyed the Dunyain in Ishual.


I doubt the quorum do much magic regardless.
If Moe can do soul transfers and is super powerful, then he can soul transfer a captured mandate schoolman, neuropincture him to do his bidding, wipe it's memories, and send it on back to the mandate. The skin spy wouldn't even know it was a spy, or that it wasn't even human for that matter.
Again, Moe being super powerful in the psukhe ruins the plot, as he can do, literally, anything to fix any situation. Because the psukhe is undetectable, no one would be the wiser, and because there is almost no text about the psukhe, there's nothing to disprove any theory about it (especially if we ignore everything the text tells us about it, which is necessary to reach the meta-moenghus theories to begin with).



On topic with Meppa, I think we'd be much better off looking for charaster like Mimara: someone who was mentioned vaguely earlier in the series but played almost no role, but then becomes central to the plot.

Agree. This is my problem with the Meta-Moe theory as well.

Yes, we are miles upon miles apart on this issue. One, don't slide me into Meta-Moe group, because I don't believe that has to be the case. We are told over and over that Moe has spent 30 years and he would be powerful beyond all imagining. Well he wasn't. He messed up by choosing the Psukhe. Yet, he is Dunyain. Do you think he just gave up and said' "I'll have to call my son, and that's that.".  No, he was plumbing the secrets of Earwa, went to the Outside, and searched for contradiction of what comes before determines what comes after.

The meeting. What piece of information does Moe give to Kellhus? Huh? None. Every question is met and rebuffed to Moe's ends not Kellhus's. It was a test, plain and simple. Every foot step in Kyudea was conditioned and Kellhus tells us this. I guess the other things I mentioned you just chalk up to Kellhus being a younger Dunyain, and let's just move on. Well fine, you can ignore the clues, I choose not to.

In TJE we come to find out that chorae can do other, wondrous things thought impossible even by Akka. You see it as being tied to the JE, where I see it being explained to us by the JE. The chorae is the chorae regardless, and can do all the wonderous things as long as you know these things. Imho, the JE is used as a way to show us what is possible. What could happen if only you knew.

Does this make Moe, Meppa? Again I think so, but not in the sense that Meppa knows he is Moe. The amnesiac Water -Bearer is too dues ex machina, unless there is an explanation behind him. And honestly, I doubt that we'll ever be told straight out that that is the case. Like anything Bakker, he leaves a trail of breadcrumbs and expects you to put the pieces together.  And hell, Kellhus has only wondered the wilderness for what, 25 years? Lol.

Its ok that we disagree, but this isn't just a dream I'm dreaming up. A hopeful wish that Moe and Cnaüir live on through Meppa. There are clues before and after TTT that lead me to the conclusion that something was afoot by Moe in Kyudea. He is Dunyain after all, and Dunyain dominate circumstance. Kellhus kicking of the skull is my clue that it wasn't Kellhus that was dominating circumstance as he thought there in Kyudea.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #178 on: April 06, 2016, 05:29:27 pm »
There are two stated places for Ascension. Where Esme gave birth as stated above and also according to the Tractate as stated in the appendix under Ascension..

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" the Tractate seems to suggest Kyudea and not Shimeh was the location".


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« Reply #179 on: April 06, 2016, 05:31:09 pm »

Yes, we are miles upon miles apart on this issue. One, don't slide me into Meta-Moe group, because I don't believe that has to be the case. We are told over and over that Moe has spent 30 years and he would be powerful beyond all imagining. Well he wasn't. He messed up by choosing the Psukhe. Yet, he is Dunyain. Do you think he just gave up and said' "I'll have to call my son, and that's that.".  No, he was plumbing the secrets of Earwa, went to the Outside, and searched for contradiction of what comes before determines what comes after.

Yes, I agree that we are miles apart on this. I'm not trying to pigeonhole you, I am using the term Meta-Moe for any theory that supports Moe have a significant influence in the second trilogy. And yes, I think he had to call his son because he painted himself into too much of a corner to do it alone. If he had the power to completely control the Cishaurim, he could have convinced the Fanim to declare a holy war against the Inrithi and asserted domination that way.

The meeting. What piece of information does Moe give to Kellhus? Huh? None. Every question is met and rebuffed to Moe's ends not Kellhus's. It was a test, plain and simple. Every foot step in Kyudea was conditioned and Kellhus tells us this. I guess the other things I mentioned you just chalk up to Kellhus being a younger Dunyain, and let's just move on. Well fine, you can ignore the clues, I choose not to.

I'm not choosing to ignore clues. We have both read the same passage and determined that there are clues. We just disagree as to what those clues point to :)


In TJE we come to find out that chorae can do other, wondrous things thought impossible even by Akka. You see it as being tied to the JE, where I see it being explained to us by the JE. The chorae is the chorae regardless, and can do all the wonderous things as long as you know these things. Imho, the JE is used as a way to show us what is possible. What could happen if only you knew.


Maybe it's not because of the JE itself, but in my opinion, if a chorae negates sorcery, then sorcery should not be able to manipulate or chorae or take place within one's sphere of influence.

Does this make Moe, Meppa? Again I think so, but not in the sense that Meppa knows he is Moe. The amnesiac Water -Bearer is too dues ex machina, unless there is an explanation behind him. And honestly, I doubt that we'll ever be told straight out that that is the case. Like anything Bakker, he leaves a trail of breadcrumbs and expects you to put the pieces together.  And hell, Kellhus has only wondered the wilderness for what, 25 years? Lol.

This I think is the heart of where we differ. Since sorcery is a known quantity on Earwa, I don't think a lone sorcerer (the las Cishaurim!) showing up is deus ex machina in the slightest, but I think the appearance of a character we assume to be dead would be. But that's me. I am glad we have this board to hash out these ideas on, because it has changed my opinion on a lot of things in these books :)
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