Crazy Ass Speculation Thread

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mrganondorf

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« Reply #90 on: March 04, 2015, 07:09:56 pm »
I always wondered how the NG "seized" the Sranc when they are soulless?

could be that their soullessness is what makes the seizing possible?  they are like empty vessels and the No-God fills the hole with itself?

Wilshire

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« Reply #91 on: March 04, 2015, 07:29:22 pm »
If NG is an Inchoroi creation, them i'm sure he does.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #92 on: March 05, 2015, 03:12:02 pm »
The No-God supposedly doesn't have a soul either. What is he filling them with?

SilentRoamer

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« Reply #93 on: March 05, 2015, 03:30:42 pm »
Wilshire - we do see intellect in soulless creations so I understand your reticence to equate soul and intellect. Comprehension of a paradox though is something specific to ensoulled creatures which I think is important - not just due to the nature of sorcery.

Its very difficult for me to express what I mean here - essentially it is that the soulless creatures that express intelligence are not actually intelligent - they are merely operating on a stimulus response type of internal narrative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room similar to this experiment - so the intellect is essentially a non cognitive trick to eschew intellect onto soulless beings.

Probably makes no sense at all to anyone! :P

Wilshire

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« Reply #94 on: March 05, 2015, 03:47:00 pm »
The No-God supposedly doesn't have a soul either. What is he filling them with?
I was being cheeky. All the Inchoroi weapons seem to have an aptitude for filling holes with themselves.

Wilshire - we do see intellect in soulless creations so I understand your reticence to equate soul and intellect. Comprehension of a paradox though is something specific to ensoulled creatures which I think is important - not just due to the nature of sorcery.

Its very difficult for me to express what I mean here - essentially it is that the soulless creatures that express intelligence are not actually intelligent - they are merely operating on a stimulus response type of internal narrative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room similar to this experiment - so the intellect is essentially a non cognitive trick to eschew intellect onto soulless beings.

Probably makes no sense at all to anyone! :P
Makes sense. Kind of like how one would call a computer, or software, "intelligent" but this is not the same intelligence one would assign to a human. Taking inputs and spitting out outputs is not the same as consciousness, and consciousness is likely what is meant in this case...

edit:
And after looking at your link, this is basically what I was going for.... So, it does my some kind of vague sense :P. Almost hard to believe I looked at the link after I typed a response.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 03:56:36 pm by Wilshire »
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #95 on: March 08, 2015, 01:07:49 am »
The No-God supposedly doesn't have a soul either. What is he filling them with?

i don't remember the NG being soulless part...

Francis Buck

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« Reply #96 on: March 08, 2015, 04:37:20 pm »
I'm not sure about the NG itself being soulless either, however I will note that it seems a being doesn't actually need to be soulless in order to be "possessed" or whatever by the No-God -- remember that in one of Akka's "alternate" dreams, Anaxophus is repeating the same words a long with the all the sranc.

If that's the case, than a good question is why isn't Seswatha himself under this same effect? Are sorcerers exempt?

mrganondorf

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« Reply #97 on: March 08, 2015, 08:51:51 pm »
I'm not sure about the NG itself being soulless either, however I will note that it seems a being doesn't actually need to be soulless in order to be "possessed" or whatever by the No-God -- remember that in one of Akka's "alternate" dreams, Anaxophus is repeating the same words a long with the all the sranc.

If that's the case, than a good question is why isn't Seswatha himself under this same effect? Are sorcerers exempt?

what if that dream was actually the true version of events?!?  all was lost, and then a lady with the Judging Eye saved eveyone's asses at the last minute!

The Sharmat

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« Reply #98 on: March 09, 2015, 07:33:39 pm »
Comprehension of a paradox though is something specific to ensoulled creatures which I think is important
Or inability to comprehend a paradox is specific to Skin-Spy wetware. How is Mimara going to know the difference? Or Kellhus, for that matter, who has little knowledge of the Tekne?

Wilshire

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« Reply #99 on: March 10, 2015, 06:24:30 pm »
Comprehension of a paradox though is something specific to ensoulled creatures which I think is important
Or inability to comprehend a paradox is specific to Skin-Spy wetware. How is Mimara going to know the difference? Or Kellhus, for that matter, who has little knowledge of the Tekne?
Good point. Not like there are a bunch of soul's with intellects running around to test on. Whatever is available I'm sure Kellhus has studied them carefully.

The Mandati skin-spy allegedly could do magic, which to me says that he could hold a paradox as this seems to be the most paradoxical thing one can do. That one wasn't killed by Maithanet, just paralyzed, so tests could have been done. Whether or not Kellhus would have revealed the particulars of that study is another issue altogether.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #100 on: March 10, 2015, 07:07:55 pm »
That is a huge issue that we often gloss over.

How the hell did Maithanet know about the Mandate Skin-Spy? Presumably the knowledge came from Moenghus, but that's just dropping the question a step further. How did Moenghus know? The interrogated Skin-Spies? I doubt they know much about where the others of their kind are, or the Consult isn't running any kind of decent spy-network at all.

EDIT: I think the only sorcery that explicitly  runs on paradox and contradiction is the Aporesis. The Gnosis is half math half philosophy. Paradox isn't necessarily inherent to that.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 07:19:44 pm by The Sharmat »

Wilshire

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« Reply #101 on: March 10, 2015, 10:02:15 pm »
Something about saying one thing and thinking something different seems paradoxical to me... its not a direct line but I think its close enough.

Its possible that Maithanet was trained to see the skin-spies so he just happened to notice it when he was there (or saw him some years before and waited until that moment to expose him).
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 01:15:17 pm by Wilshire »
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #102 on: March 11, 2015, 01:22:46 am »
Something about saying one thing and thinking something different seems paradoxical to me... its not a direct line but I think its close enough.
That's not paradox, that's just multi-tasking.

Wouldn't be surprised if an aporetic cant wasn't comprised of an utteral statement and in inutteral negation which combined makes kind of a paradox, in a way, though.

Its possible that Maithanet was trained to see the skin-spies so he just happened to notice it when he was their (or saw him some years before and waited until that moment to expose him).
I hadn't considered that he didn't actually know it was there. It's possible he was just winging it. But then, without exposing the spy...how was he going to get the Mandate on his side? It's very neat with the spy there, and messy and difficult without.

Fucking Dunyain.

Wilshire

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« Reply #103 on: March 11, 2015, 01:33:57 pm »
Something about altering 'objective' reality with your subjective thoughts makes me feel like there is a paradox inherent in all magic that is likely expressed in some way through the utterals and innuterals.


It does seem unlikely that he didn't know that the skin-spy was there. Moenghus' goal was to 'unite' the three seas under one religion, this I am at least pretty sure of. What, then, was the goal of bringing the Mandate? I don't remember the timeline of events exactly, how long was it from the end of the way to when Maithanet and the Mandate showed up in Shimeh? If it was soon enough that Maithanet had already picked up the Mandate before the final outcome was determined, than its likely he didn't know Kellhus had won, which means bringing the Mandate was always a part of Moe's plan... It almost doesn't matter I guess. Either way, the Mandate's knowledge of the Consult would have been needed, and keeping them close at hand so their magics didn't get in the way would have been a must.

Still not really sure where I am going... So, regardless of who won, Fanim or Inrithi, the Consult would have been exposed, the Mandate brought to the side of the victor and raised up out of their centuries of irrelevance. Both Moe and Kell were/are Anasurimbor, and liekly would have went to Shimeh to meet the fellow. So even if the Mandate thought that Kell had won and showed up to find out another Anasurimbor was the victor, they wouldn't have been terribly upset.

Is it then reasonable to assume that the skin-spy  might have just been an opportune coincidence? Maybe, it at least doesn't seem like a huge stretch. The whole point of revealing it was to do what?
Bend the knee of the Mandate to Maithanet and by extension the new Emperor? They would have done so either way.
Convince them to come to Shimeh? Again, they probably would have done that anyway.
Expose the Consullt? Already done by Kellhus.
Show them of their own fallibility? Probably, but to what end? They could have been convinced later of the awesome power of the new Emperor.

I can't really think of a reason for revealing the skin-spy at that moment. It just doesn't seem particularly relevant to me.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #104 on: March 11, 2015, 06:22:03 pm »
It's a really easy way to get their attention AND respect.