[MSJ]

I think that anyone who has read the series, would agree that "someone" is manipulating events on Earwa. We've had many theories on the prowess of Moe, you could say the Gods, but who I claim it to be is Seswatha.

There has been several suggestions that we will find out that Seswatha HAD some alternative motive or wasn't who he was portrayed to be. I've done multiple rereads and I am in the process of one at the moment. And, I find that all signs point to Seswatha being the Master Manipulator.

First, what got this little theory of mine started, was that I found it to be weird that in The Sagas[/i,] Esme notes that Seswatha is never the described the same or he isn't described well at all. This is the very reason The Mandate gives no credence to it.  Also, is the fact of the "grasping" of Seswatha's heart. This seems eerily similar to Shae's soul trapping device described in the sample chapter.

I believe Seswatha took the Celmommas Prophecy literal and went to extreme lengths to make sure he was there at the end of the world. Akka has a dream where Celmommas confides to Seswatha the location of Ishual. I believe Seswatha sent the Dûnyain to Ishual and that they are his secret weapon. He realized that to truly defeat the Consult mankind would need a superhuman, a self-moving soul who could truly speak with the God's voice, enter Kellhus. He's the culmination of Seswatha's original plan.

Now, this takes nothing away to the theory that Moe was manipulating events of the first trilogy. In fact, during my current reread its glaringly obvious. I just say that Moe was being manipulated also, by the Dûnyain elders. To take a phrase from Lockesnow, the Dûnyain was just a Truman show. There true intent a purpose was only known to an elect few, the elders (or hell, maybe it will be revealed the Dûnyain women). So, the Dûnyain was just a tool of Seswatha to breed and create a humans that will be effective against the Consult during the 2nd Apocalypse. I believe that Magic was known to them just hidden and that they still have a huge part to play. They just won't be waiting inside of Ishual when Akka and Mimara get there. But, something will be....

Seswatha's other tool has never been a secret, The Mandate. This is how Seswatha is able to keep an eye over events and know when the time is right to set his plan into motion. And Akka is his tool. I believe why Akka has come to be a Prophet of the Past is to actually be Seswatha's hand in these events. I believe what will be waiting on Akka will be the Heron Spear, deep in The Thousand Thousand Halls.

I'm also positive that Meppa is his 3 rd tool in the events of the 2nd Apocalypse. I like to think that he is a combination of Moe's intellect and Cnaüir's passion. And that somehow he will play a crucial part in theses events.

Well, that is my theory on who is manipulating events on Earwa. Please rip it to shreds, or offer your opinions on who the manipulator could be.

[Cüréthañ]

I'm not really down with Seswatha as an active participant, but I definitely feel like he's a bigger part of the darkness that precedes than we are explicitly shown.

However, I'll throw some wood on your fire with something he would likely be involved with if you are right.

The wathi doll ... specifically the way it dug itself out of the ruins of the library, powered up by eating the tabby cat's lifeforce and trekked to the compound, waited til the SS weren't looking and then scratched out the uborian circle.  Remember, Akka was unconcious and then sorcerously restrained so that even his incipient wards were removed.  The uborian ward prevented him from speaking any sorcery.

To me, it was Khellus' doing (as he had already spoken the doll's cipher) - but Seswatha is a definite possibility.

[H]

I think Seswatha is the true "man in the shadows."  The more I think about things, as they are in the moment, the more everything seems to point back to Seswatha.

Consider the following:

1.) Seswatha is the one who "heard" the Celmomian Prophecy, no one else.
2.) Seswatha and Celmomas were the only ones who knew of Ishual (and Ganrelka II too, but more on that later).
3.) Celmomas' plan seemed to be to have Ganrelka II inhabit Ishual to continue the line.  He couldn't have anticipated the 'plague' that killed them.  Therefor the most likely culprit on who sent the Dunyain there is Seswatha.
4.) The Dunyain stated intention is the fulfillment of the Celmomian Prophecy (see point 1).
5.) Perhaps most importantly, almost everything we know of the Apocalypse comes from (or through) Seswatha.  The dreams, presented as 'fact' by Akka, mainly because they are seem real to him (and so, it would seem to us), not to mention the Isûphiryas, the Nonman history before the coming of Man, "saved by Seswatha, who delivered it to the scribes of the Three Seas."  Is it no wonder that The Sagas, the human history of the Apocalyse, seem to paint a different picture from the Mandate's canon on events?  Also no wonder that we never really get to read them?
6.) The Mandate: the dreams are not immutable, in fact, they seem almost directed.  Again, Seswatha is a clear hand here.

To me, it seems clear that the Second Apocalypse is a clear set up by Seswatha.  Kellhus is made to break the game, end the cycle.  Everything else, Seswatha has manipulated to help him achieve this.  Prevention was never an aim.  The Mandate, the Dunyain are made to bring about the Apocalypse, not prevent it.  The First Apocalypse was on the Consult's terms.  The Second is on Seswatha's.

Or something like that...

[profgrape]

2.) Seswatha and Celmomas were the only ones who knew of Ishual (and Ganrelka II too, but more on that later).

C'mon, H, don't leave us hanging like that! 

[H]

2.) Seswatha and Celmomas were the only ones who knew of Ishual (and Ganrelka II too, but more on that later).

C'mon, H, don't leave us hanging like that! 

Dude it's point 3, it wasn't that long a wait, haha.

[profgrape]

Holy shit. How did I miss that... 

[H]

Holy shit. How did I miss that...

Because my writing is super unclear, 

[MSJ]

H,

I like the nugget you added about the Dûnyain being all about mission, the Celmommas Prophecy. I'm currently on TDTCB where Kel and Cnaüir are crossing into the Empire. And, the use of "mission" by both of them has come up at least 20 times, explaining the Dûnyain. So, a point is being made early and often by Bakker.

[Wilshire]

I think that anyone who has read the series, would agree that "someone" is manipulating events on Earwa. We've had many theories on the prowess of Moe, you could say the Gods, but who I claim it to be is Seswatha.

Ah good, well at least you didn't say it was Moe. I agree with you, Seswatha seems to be hidden in the shadows, especially given that Shae is still pulling the strings with the Consult eons later.

There has been several suggestions that we will find out that Seswatha HAD some alternative motive or wasn't who he was portrayed to be. I've done multiple rereads and I am in the process of one at the moment. And, I find that all signs point to Seswatha being the Master Manipulator.

First, what got this little theory of mine started, was that I found it to be weird that in The Sagas[/i,] Esme notes that Seswatha is never the described the same or he isn't described well at all. This is the very reason The Mandate gives no credence to it.  Also, is the fact of the "grasping" of Seswatha's heart. This seems eerily similar to Shae's soul trapping device described in the sample chapter.

The misalignment with the dreams and the Sagas, and other bits of historical facts that are written elsewhere do point to some inconsistencies, which means one or the other are lying. It seems likely that Seswatha was the one lying as he was the one painting the most vivid picture of events, and its not like anyone can cross-reference his 'story' which is proclaimed as the absolute truth: him showing you his life as he lived it.

I believe Seswatha took the Celmommas Prophecy literal and went to extreme lengths to make sure he was there at the end of the world. Akka has a dream where Celmommas confides to Seswatha the location of Ishual. I believe Seswatha sent the Dûnyain to Ishual and that they are his secret weapon. He realized that to truly defeat the Consult mankind would need a superhuman, a self-moving soul who could truly speak with the God's voice, enter Kellhus. He's the culmination of Seswatha's original plan.

If Seswatha worked closely enough with the Nonmen for long enough, he may have adopted some of their sentiments, along with some of their long term perspective. Not only is the Mangecca something of the mortal, or at least natural, enemy of the Sohonc, but so too the Inchoroi to the Nonmen. The Dunyain seem some kind of mesh of Seswatha and Nonmen ideology, and Seswatha sending them to Ishual to forcefully fulfill the Celmomas Prophecy seems plausible.

Now, this takes nothing away to the theory that Moe was manipulating events of the first trilogy. In fact, during my current reread its glaringly obvious. I just say that Moe was being manipulated also, by the Dûnyain elders. To take a phrase from Lockesnow, the Dûnyain was just a Truman show. There true intent a purpose was only known to an elect few, the elders (or hell, maybe it will be revealed the Dûnyain women). So, the Dûnyain was just a tool of Seswatha to breed and create a humans that will be effective against the Consult during the 2nd Apocalypse. I believe that Magic was known to them just hidden and that they still have a huge part to play. They just won't be waiting inside of Ishual when Akka and Mimara get there. But, something will be....

I think it would be a fair reveal to have a master manipulator within the Dunyain manipulating those that get sent out, i.e Moe and Kellhus, etc. However, something of a Dune twist, their own creation got away from them/came too early, etc.

And I agree, this doesn't detract from Moe being the puppetmaster in PoN, I just think his time has passed, or at least him sitting on the throne as master manipulator is done.

Seswatha's other tool has never been a secret, The Mandate. This is how Seswatha is able to keep an eye over events and know when the time is right to set his plan into motion. And Akka is his tool. I believe why Akka has come to be a Prophet of the Past is to actually be Seswatha's hand in these events. I believe what will be waiting on Akka will be the Heron Spear, deep in The Thousand Thousand Halls.

First/Second Foundation analogues, and kwisatz haderach from Dune. Kellhus being the culmination of both weapons forming one mighty hammer with which Seswatha may wield to destroy his dread foe. I can dig it. I think it may be a stretch to say anyone can wield the Dunyain and/or Kellhus as they have been shown to us, but some further reveal of whats really happening behind the curtain could make it all possible in a satisfactory way.

I'm also positive that Meppa is his 3 rd tool in the events of the 2nd Apocalypse. I like to think that he is a combination of Moe's intellect and Cnaüir's passion. And that somehow he will play a crucial part in theses events.

Meppa remains an enigma to me. A fishy combination of Moenghus and Cnaiur if you ask me, and the lost memories... He's definitely someones tool, but I have no guesses as to whose.

Well, that is my theory on who is manipulating events on Earwa. Please rip it to shreds, or offer your opinions on who the manipulator could be.

See above

[Wilshire]

I'm not really down with Seswatha as an active participant, but I definitely feel like he's a bigger part of the darkness that precedes than we are explicitly shown.

...

To me, it was Khellus' doing (as he had already spoken the doll's cipher) - but Seswatha is a definite possibility.

I am torn. There would have to be some pretty big reveals  to have Seswatha fit the role, but I think something bigger must be behind Kellhus. His story is strangest of all, and Bakker hiding his POV post TTT was a brilliant stroke. Could go any way.

I think Seswatha is the true "man in the shadows."  The more I think about things, as they are in the moment, the more everything seems to point back to Seswatha.

Consider the following:

1.) Seswatha is the one who "heard" the Celmomian Prophecy, no one else.

Easily could read "made up". The nature of Prophecy in Earwa is something a point of contention, since Aurang mentions something about 'false' prophecies. Maybe Seswatha knew exactly what he was doing when he told the story of that Prophecy, making forcing it into reality.

2.) Seswatha and Celmomas were the only ones who knew of Ishual (and Ganrelka II too, but more on that later).
3.) Celmomas' plan seemed to be to have Ganrelka II inhabit Ishual to continue the line.  He couldn't have anticipated the 'plague' that killed them.  Therefor the most likely culprit on who sent the Dunyain there is Seswatha.

The biggest gap here is that we don't know that Seswatha was engaged with the creation/shaping of the Dunyain. That said, seems terribly convenient the way its all played out for that not to be the case.

4.) The Dunyain stated intention is the fulfillment of the Celmomian Prophecy (see point 1).

I didn't follow that. How do you know?

5.) Perhaps most importantly, almost everything we know of the Apocalypse comes from (or through) Seswatha.  The dreams, presented as 'fact' by Akka, mainly because they are seem real to him (and so, it would seem to us), not to mention the Isûphiryas, the Nonman history before the coming of Man, "saved by Seswatha, who delivered it to the scribes of the Three Seas."  Is it no wonder that The Sagas, the human history of the Apocalyse, seem to paint a different picture from the Mandate's canon on events?  Also no wonder that we never really get to read them?

I agree completely. My response to the OP seems to match up with this pretty well and I hadn't read this yet .

6.) The Mandate: the dreams are not immutable, in fact, they seem almost directed.  Again, Seswatha is a clear hand here.

I don't know about clear, but its at least hidden. Dreams changing based on surrounding events, specifically timing of events, must mean something, and who else other than Seswatha?

To me, it seems clear that the Second Apocalypse is a clear set up by Seswatha.  Kellhus is made to break the game, end the cycle.  Everything else, Seswatha has manipulated to help him achieve this.  Prevention was never an aim.  The Mandate, the Dunyain are made to bring about the Apocalypse, not prevent it.  The First Apocalypse was on the Consult's terms.  The Second is on Seswatha's.

Or something like that...

Love the bold.

[MSJ]

Wilshire,

I have never read Dune, but, I gather most of the regulars here have. I've seen the comparisons before. I bought the trilogy, just haven't made the leap yet. Thanks for your insight.

[H]

H,

I like the nugget you added about the Dûnyain being all about mission, the Celmommas Prophecy. I'm currently on TDTCB where Kel and Cnaüir are crossing into the Empire. And, the use of "mission" by both of them has come up at least 20 times, explaining the Dûnyain. So, a point is being made early and often by Bakker.

A major question is, who sent Moe out, to condition the way for Kell.  I think it was all part of the plan.  Once they knew they had the right specimen in Kellhus, they knew they had to send Moe out to condition the way for him.  The whole story of him encountering Sranc, so he had to be sent in to the world to "ascertain the extent of our exposure" is nonsense.  He was sent to find out of the world was ready for the Second Apocalypse.  It was and so Moe sent dreams back.  The Pragma that received them knew the real purpose, but knew they couldn't actually deceive Kellhus, he was their better and would see through it, so to preserve the sanctity of the mission, they killed themselves.  The rest were probably in the dark, so they took those Pragma at their word, it was the save the 'purity' of the order, sent Kellhus out too.

[MSJ]

I am torn. There would have to be some pretty big reveals  to have Seswatha fit the role, but I think something bigger must be behind Kellhus. His story is strangest of all, and Bakker hiding his POV post TTT was a brilliant stroke. Could go any way.

And I have felt the same. Yet the only that tugs me in this direction is Madness's reading of The Unholy. And, him saying it was reveal upon reveal. So, its doable.

[MSJ]

H,

I like the nugget you added about the Dûnyain being all about mission, the Celmommas Prophecy. I'm currently on TDTCB where Kel and Cnaüir are crossing into the Empire. And, the use of "mission" by both of them has come up at least 20 times, explaining the Dûnyain. So, a point is being made early and often by Bakker.

A major question is, who sent Moe out, to condition the way for Kell.  I think it was all part of the plan.  Once they knew they had the right specimen in Kellhus, they knew they had to send Moe out to condition the way for him.  The whole story of him encountering Sranc, so he had to be sent in to the world to "ascertain the extent of our exposure" is nonsense.  He was sent to find out of the world was ready for the Second Apocalypse.  It was and so Moe sent dreams back.  The Pragma that received them knew the real purpose, but knew they couldn't actually deceive Kellhus, he was their better and would see through it, so to preserve the sanctity of the mission, they killed themselves.  The rest were probably in the dark, so they took those Pragma at their word, it was the save the 'purity' of the order, sent Kellhus out too.

Yes, that's the hidden Manipulator who we're speaking about. They'd have to be behind it all. My money is on Seswatha, yet I could see this being some female Nonman magi. Because, we're supposed to get some big reveal on the feminine.

ETA: she would also explain the inhanced abilities of the Dûnyain if she is the "brood made" also. Damn, if that's the case, I hope there are multiple female Nonmen. You know, so the internet doesn't explode.

[Wilshire]

H,

I like the nugget you added about the Dûnyain being all about mission, the Celmommas Prophecy. I'm currently on TDTCB where Kel and Cnaüir are crossing into the Empire. And, the use of "mission" by both of them has come up at least 20 times, explaining the Dûnyain. So, a point is being made early and often by Bakker.

A major question is, who sent Moe out, to condition the way for Kell.  I think it was all part of the plan.  Once they knew they had the right specimen in Kellhus, they knew they had to send Moe out to condition the way for him.  The whole story of him encountering Sranc, so he had to be sent in to the world to "ascertain the extent of our exposure" is nonsense.  He was sent to find out of the world was ready for the Second Apocalypse.  It was and so Moe sent dreams back.  The Pragma that received them knew the real purpose, but knew they couldn't actually deceive Kellhus, he was their better and would see through it, so to preserve the sanctity of the mission, they killed themselves.  The rest were probably in the dark, so they took those Pragma at their word, it was the save the 'purity' of the order, sent Kellhus out too.

Thats a good perspective I have not really considered. Seems pretty good, though remember that Kellhus does not actually see the Pragma die. He sees them filing down the stairs, allegedly to the Thousand Thousand halls. Even if they went there, I somehow doubt they sat around and died if they were in the know. Given the state of Ishual, its more likely to me that they set about bringing Ishual to ruin and leaving in secret to do whatever else it is they had to do.... Or just leaving Ishual, knowing that Kellhus and the rest of the herd thought them to be dead.