[mrganondorf]

i don't think we do, i just assumed so because i don't know what else would make him sufficiently tyranty

I don't know, that song makes it seem like his parents were kind of jerks, wanting to keep their bloodline so pure as to be incestuous.

I don't know, of course, that song is probably post-hoc, a rationalization after the fact of what did happen though.

i wasn't thinking of the song, just the way CC is regarded throughout TSA, as a really bad ass kingly kingy king.  i have no idea, but it would be cool if her were Tall and Few

[Blackstone]

Wonder what you guys think--did anyone survive?  I had this overwhelming sense of doom at the end, that Serwa was bringing down the mansion on one and all, but Madness didn't get that vibe at all.

Also, if they did survive, it's going to be all kinds of fucked up.  Serwa was tortured, she's basically another Koringhus now.  Is she going to try and kill her dad?  Will she gather 100 stones or murder 99 anagogic schoolmen?  Moe, poor Moe, if alive, is going to be a sad shell.  Sorweel might be a really interesting character after this, but still, he was kind of soul-raped and that is just fucked up.

I think all three of them are going to be alive, I didn't get the sense that they were pulling the whole place down, per se.  Moe will be crazy like daddy now though.  Serwa is going to be even more staunch that Kellhus knew and was right the whole time.  Sorweel, well, I don't know...

Agreed. I definitely got the feeling that they would all three survive. Presumably some of the Nonmen will too. It's interesting to think that Oinaras might decide to leave the Mansion and make war on the Consult.

I always did think the Heron Spear was more like a recoilless rifle than an actual spear.

With all respect to some of the amazing artwork that I've seen out there, in my mind the Heron Spear was a no shit plasma rifle which men and Nonmen called a spear because they didn't have any other frame of reference. I think it would probably be scaled up in size in proportion to an Inchoroi vs a human.

Edit - It just occurred to me that we might actually have a meeting of Cnaiur and Moe Jr, and now they will both be mad.

[Madness]

I think it was kind of like "If it works out then great.  If it doesn't, tear them a new one."  I'm obviously paraphrasing here.  Kellhus would never use a drab word like 'great.'

Yeah, he says:

"And if Ishterebinth has fallen to the Consult?  What then, Father?"
A grave look.
"You are my daughter, Serwa," Anasûrimbor Kellhus replied. "Show them my portion."

Wonder what you guys think--did anyone survive?  I had this overwhelming sense of doom at the end, that Serwa was bringing down the mansion on one and all, but Madness didn't get that vibe at all.

Also, if they did survive, it's going to be all kinds of fucked up.  Serwa was tortured, she's basically another Koringhus now.  Is she going to try and kill her dad?  Will she gather 100 stones or murder 99 anagogic schoolmen?  Moe, poor Moe, if alive, is going to be a sad shell.  Sorweel might be a really interesting character after this, but still, he was kind of soul-raped and that is just fucked up.

I think all three of them are going to be alive, I didn't get the sense that they were pulling the whole place down, per se.  Moe will be crazy like daddy now though.  Serwa is going to be even more staunch that Kellhus knew and was right the whole time.  Sorweel, well, I don't know...

I have to wonder if oblivion has, to some degree, cured some of the Tall so that they will be, at least for awhile, like their old selves.

The Most Ancient Warrior--he's been doing his daily reps to keep his head clear for this day!  He's going to war!!!

I think there's a Ride of the Valkyries moment coming in TUC.  Serwa, Sorweel, the Tall, The Most Ancient Warrior....  the remnants of Istherebinth (with an army of Emwama) come charging against the Consult near the end.  Brutal.

Yeap - excepting that betraying the Ordeal would be a one-time opportunity at glorious trauma...

I don't think that Serwa and Sorweel, anyways, were broken by their trials in the Weeping Mountain. Trial can breed resilience. Sorwa, an Earwan couple with respect, power, and agency !

For my part, I figure in classic Bakker style, he'll skip over the legendary moments where Oirunas and Serwa take the Nonmen to heel and Ishterebinth's arc for the first part of TUC will probably just be Sorweel, Serwa, and the Tall debating whether or not to ride to the aid of the Ordeal...

EDIT: Serwa can Sing Sorcery despite the OG Agonic Collar... Cray. And sadly, I'm fairly sure Oinaral Lastborn is dead.

Though, dead seems to mean something else in this series...

[Wilshire]

I think it was kind of like "If it works out then great.  If it doesn't, tear them a new one."  I'm obviously paraphrasing here.  Kellhus would never use a drab word like 'great.'

Yeah, he says:

"And if Ishterebinth has fallen to the Consult?  What then, Father?"
A grave look.
"You are my daughter, Serwa," Anasûrimbor Kellhus replied. "Show them my portion."

I think it's a genuine unknown. He honors the Niom, but its a double bluff. If it succeeds and they honor it, great, he gets some Intact to play with. If they are crazy and Golgotterath controls them, then Serwa is there to burn the place down.
And if she fails, woe comes. "with your last breath, pray" - or something.

Wonder what you guys think--did anyone survive?  I had this overwhelming sense of doom at the end, that Serwa was bringing down the mansion on one and all, but Madness didn't get that vibe at all.

I think those aligned with the Consult, the Vile, will all die. There was some dissension among the ranks, clearly, and I believe those left Intact will show up as the red sun rises, come out of the mountains to relieve TGO in it's darkest hour.
... Or maybe not channelling Tolkien so heavily, but I think they'll support TGO to defeat the consult.

Wonder what you guys think--did anyone survive?  I had this overwhelming sense of doom at the end, that Serwa was bringing down the mansion on one and all, but Madness didn't get that vibe at all.

Also, if they did survive, it's going to be all kinds of fucked up.  Serwa was tortured, she's basically another Koringhus now.  Is she going to try and kill her dad?  Will she gather 100 stones or murder 99 anagogic schoolmen?  Moe, poor Moe, if alive, is going to be a sad shell.  Sorweel might be a really interesting character after this, but still, he was kind of soul-raped and that is just fucked up.

I think all three of them are going to be alive, I didn't get the sense that they were pulling the whole place down, per se.  Moe will be crazy like daddy now though.  Serwa is going to be even more staunch that Kellhus knew and was right the whole time.  Sorweel, well, I don't know...

I have to wonder if oblivion has, to some degree, cured some of the Tall so that they will be, at least for awhile, like their old selves.

The Most Ancient Warrior--he's been doing his daily reps to keep his head clear for this day!  He's going to war!!!

To arms! I sure hope so .

 But what of Sorweel in the Holy Dark (deep?)?
I think he lost contact with Yatwer. At least for a while. Shows that even someone so close to Yatwer could go missing from her gaze, and I doubt she even noticed. Blind to what they are blind to, and all that.
Could have been that Sorweels shaken faith, seeing that Yatwer was wrong, and Kellhus -regardless of divinity- was 'right' to stop the consult, might have relieved her grasp on him, if only for a time.
Or, the helmet thingy shielded him from Yatwer's gaze, it being a nonman soul who worrshiped oblivion and not her. And/or some kind of Rick/Mortey shielding effect .

As for Tyrants and Kings, I think it has more to do with tradition and fear more than anything else. The Mansions have never been without a son of Tsonos. They were simply always the ruling class.

[Hirtius/Pansa]

Of course the Hobbits are a slave race in Earwa.  Typical Bakker!

[Wilshire]

Of course the Hobbits are a slave race in Earwa.  Typical Bakker!

He did say Frodo Baggins was his favorite villain.

[H]

But what of Sorweel in the Holy Dark (deep?)?
I think he lost contact with Yatwer. At least for a while. Shows that even someone so close to Yatwer could go missing from her gaze, and I doubt she even noticed. Blind to what they are blind to, and all that.
Could have been that Sorweels shaken faith, seeing that Yatwer was wrong, and Kellhus -regardless of divinity- was 'right' to stop the consult, might have relieved her grasp on him, if only for a time.
Or, the helmet thingy shielded him from Yatwer's gaze, it being a nonman soul who worrshiped oblivion and not her. And/or some kind of Rick/Mortey shielding effect .

Indeed, he certainly seemed to be flip-flopping on if Kellhus is, essentially, good or evil.

I think the crux here is that he is neither.  As Theli (oh, poor, poor Theli) figured out, Kellhus is nothing but what he thinks he must be at the moment.  But then again, is that really true?  We get contradictions to that too.  Kellhus simply is, the plan (TTT) and himself are one.

I am guessing that at some point, Sorweel is going to be presented the opportunity to stop Kellhus, but I don't think he actually will.  Like the WLW, something else will intercede, Sorweel will have doubt, even momentarily, and the chance will be gone.

[Madness]

Of course the Hobbits are a slave race in Earwa.  Typical Bakker!

He did say Frodo Baggins was his favorite villain.

Lol - he was genuinely gleeful about that one .

EDIT: Sorweel remains one of my favorite characters. I think he's growing up quite well, hardship is giving him a genuine pose, the ability to discern the competing ends of such a crux, doubt, and choose for himself.

I just keep thinking of all the different "personality-scenarios" regarding meet-ups at Agongorea. TUC-proper is going to be insane.

[H]

Of course the Hobbits are a slave race in Earwa.  Typical Bakker!

He did say Frodo Baggins was his favorite villain.

Lol - he was genuinely gleeful about that one .

EDIT: Sorweel remains one of my favorite characters. I think he's growing up quite well, hardship is giving him a genuine pose, the ability to discern the competing ends of such a crux, doubt, and choose for himself.

I just keep thinking of all the different "personality-scenarios" regarding meet-ups at Agongorea. TUC-proper is going to be insane.

I'm not even going to pretend, I really don't like Sorweel.

More Aurang is all I ask...

[Blackstone]

Of course the Hobbits are a slave race in Earwa.  Typical Bakker!

He did say Frodo Baggins was his favorite villain.

Lol - he was genuinely gleeful about that one .

EDIT: Sorweel remains one of my favorite characters. I think he's growing up quite well, hardship is giving him a genuine pose, the ability to discern the competing ends of such a crux, doubt, and choose for himself.

I just keep thinking of all the different "personality-scenarios" regarding meet-ups at Agongorea. TUC-proper is going to be insane.

He's growing on me as well, but with Cnaiur back, no one can take his place at the top of my favorite character list.

[Wilshire]

EDIT: Serwa can Sing Sorcery despite the OG Agonic Collar... Cray. And sadly, I'm fairly sure Oinaral Lastborn is dead.

She can? Thought she was either mundane singing, or waiting to have the collar removed. It wasnt removed as she was being gagged?

[Madness]

As far as my readings (which we all now know is compromised), that's the whole reveal of Serwa's arc in Ishterebinth. As per the draft, Harapior tells her he'd been asking himself why a Dunyain would sing Ihrimsu songs while they tortured Moenghus? It seemed to me that he then gags her in addition to the Agonic collar - the gag, which Sorweel later removes so that she can Sing.

[Wilshire]

Seems different than what I recall, but I don't have the book to reference anymore.

[H]

As far as my readings (which we all now know is compromised), that's the whole reveal of Serwa's arc in Ishterebinth. As per the draft, Harapior tells her he'd been asking himself why a Dunyain would sing Ihrimsu songs while they tortured Moenghus? It seemed to me that he then gags her in addition to the Agonic collar - the gag, which Sorweel later removes so that she can Sing.

This was my impression as well, although, I can see how it isn't exactly clear.

I guess one way around the Collar would be to have some kind of off-the-chart pain tolerance?  No idea if that is how she was able to do it though.

[Somnambulist]

I just read this section yesterday.  There was a chorae that someone had thrown at Serwa, it was bouncing along the grilled floor until part of it gave way and halted it.  It's described that Sorweel grabbed it and was reaching toward her face with it.  Basically, though it's not explicitly stated, I figured the proximity of the chorae to the collar nullified the magic so she could sing (in addition to him pulling the cloth from her mouth of course).