[TGO SPOILERS] First complete chapter with Akka and Mimara

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Wilshire

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« on: May 18, 2016, 06:02:55 pm »
And, finally, the "other half" of the excerpt we got back in 2012.

http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.ca/2016/05/extract-from-r-scott-bakkers-great_18.html

Small quote spoiler tagged below, click the link to see the rest over at Pat's Fantasy Hotlist

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profgrape

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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2016, 07:22:17 pm »
Well, that answered a bunch of open questions.

1. Who destroyed the monestary?  The Consult, and specifically, "Shriekers" (Sranc) and "Singers" (Erratics).

2. How do the Dunyain reproduce? The old-fashioned way with a horrible, albeit somewhat predictable, twist.

3. Are there any Dunyain left? Yes, there are at least two.  Although 1.7 might be closer based on the description we get of Koringhus.

4. Are the Dunyain ev-il like the fru-its of the dev-il? All signs point to yes.  Note that this corroborates Kellhus' describing them as a "terrible race" in Chapter 1.  And if you believe Seswatha to be "good", this also likely closes the door on the connection between Seswatha and the Dunyain.

And as always, with the answers, we get more questions:

1. What was Kellhus' mission?  Koringhus asking "Has he grasped the Absolute?" might imply that Kellhus' mission was something greater than going after his father.  I know that this is the goal of all Dunyain.  But the way he asked it makes me wonder...

2. If the Dunyain are ev-il, who's side are they on?  TJE views the Dunyain as monsters and as mentioned above, so does Kellhus in Chapter 1.  But they sure don't seem to be aligned with the Consult. 

3. Is Koringhus the Anasurimbor of the Celmoman prophecy?  The kid's comment about how the "Logos has always burned brightest within him" makes me wonder if he is the chosen one, no Kellhus or as some have speculated, Mimara's baby.

4. What's up with the "hus" names?  Moenghus, Kellhus and now, Koringhus.  Could just be a Dunyain tradition. 

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« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 08:56:11 pm by profgrape »

themerchant

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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2016, 08:49:34 pm »
This book is going to be something else. Madness wasn't joking when he said i'll need to read all of it in the bath.

MSJ

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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2016, 08:57:18 pm »
Just scanned through it real quick, ill read it later.

1. Axlotl tanks, whale mothers......whatever. Spoke too soon, eh?

2. A lot of revelation here, but what stands out to me is that Koringhus knows of Kellhus. So, I can only assume that Kellhus is the culmination of the Dunyain plan. More later.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2016, 09:21:27 pm »
Who culled more sranc, the Dunyain or the Scalpers? Sorry need more time to process the serious shit.

profgrape

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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2016, 10:16:58 pm »
I hope that Koringhus doesn't die too soon.  Akka's description of him was pretty amazing, how he effectively prioritized his injuries to prolong his life.  Total badass.

Also, based on the revelation in Chapter 1 regarding the Gods and what TJE has seen so far, I'm wondering if only Men are damned.  Women are objectively lesser in the Gods eyes and therefore, outside the whole damnation cycle.   The Consult was able to turn Ieva by showing her fate (presumably via the Inverse Fire).  But that doesn't mean it was true. 

Wilshire

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« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2016, 10:44:22 pm »
Quote
“We fought them for years.”

Holy shit, just imagine... 
These 5 words pack so much into them.

And this
Quote
“The Survivor carried me in,” he said. “The Survivor walked me out. The Logos has always burned brightest within him. None among the brethren stood so close to the Absolute as he.”

He could not have known Kellhus, but we know that Kellhus was supposed to be exceptional as a Dunyain. Maybe ALL the anasurimbor are exceptional for some reason.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 10:54:07 pm by Wilshire »
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Ciogli

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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2016, 12:53:06 am »
Well it seems that my speculation that some Dunyain survived was correct, and my further speculation that Akka would be forced to teach Dunyain children might also be correct. I wonder why the two did not leave Ishual, maybe the sranc were to numerous nearby. Koringhus would atleast be in his mid twenties and the child is old to come along. I can see them trying to find the Great Ordeal, bringing along the son of Kellhuss, if Kellhuss was a prodigy even for the Dunyain and his son is the closest to the Absolute, then maybe Koringhus is the one the Celmommian Prophecy spoke of. That would be an awesome conversation between the two of them. I get the feeling that Kellhuss does not plan to survive this and if their is another time jump then we may have just met humanity's true saviors.
The world holds no terrors for me, I stand naked as the falling sword, I am the Terror.

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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2016, 02:12:47 am »
Quote
“We fought them for years.”

Holy shit, just imagine... 
These 5 words pack so much into them.

Yeeeaah. This is one of my favorites:

Quote
The spoor of a thousand mortal battles, of a Dûnyain in extremis, pursuing the intangible lines of survival and triumph through countless threshing swords, playing the margins of his own flesh, ignoring all but the most lethal incisions, so that he might kill and kill and overcome... Endure.
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profgrape

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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2016, 02:23:18 am »
A-men, Madness -- Koringhus is one serious mofo.

MSJ

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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2016, 04:39:48 am »
Man, so much to process in so little words. First off, from these two excerpts it definitely seems as if Bakker has hit his stride as an author. Its just so Damn good, and he's able to pack so much meaning in every sentence. Its gonna be a great ride.

1. So, the whale mothers, as they're coming to be known as, is a bit of a put off to me. I found the idea of axlotl tanks ridiculous for many different reasons, but namely that it's a rip off from another writer. Maybe it's a homage, I just would be like something different. That said, it is a  absolute horror to say the least. And, from these excerpts I imagine things are going to get very dark from here on out.

2. The Consult destroyed Ishual. How did they find it, the map? That's what I assume, but could Mek have his hand in this?

3. Koringhus is definitely a striking character to say the least. His question at the end about if Kellhus had grasped the Absolute, tells me two things. He knows about his father going out into the world, so the brothers that received the dreams did not in fact commit suicide. Two, Kellhus is the culmination of the Dunyain's plan, to grasp the Absolute.

4. As Bakker told Pat that this is just the first chapter in Ishual, I think there is a lot more that will be revealed. More minds blown, you might say.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 04:41:44 am by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2016, 05:42:34 am »
For me the thing that stuck out is when Mimara suddenly seeing the Truth(well as much as the judging eye is truth) of Kellhus, and her first thought it to warn her mother. Really jarring and showing how deeply it affected her.

Ciogli

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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2016, 08:49:52 pm »
SJ on question 3 I think it was simply them looking for long enough, if the child remembers going into the underground and coming out, then this happened in the 5 or so years. At the end of the warrior prophet they began to look and in the thousandfold thought Cnaiur the Consult Ishual is in the mountains, then it took maybe 15 years of searching for them to find it.

Will the identity of child be revealed? He could be a cousin or even grandchild of Kellhus, I think he is being overlooked because of the awesomeness of Koringhus.

I wonder why Koringhus is the survivor? Was he the only fully trained Dunyain, and the child is not considered a full Dunyain sort of like a padawan.

On the question of Koringhus it is said that the Dunyain push each generation to the very limits of their ability and that is why they progress, if Kellhus was the greatest Dunyain ever in terms of skills and his son is considered the closest to the Absolute then maybe Koringhus is superior to Kellhus. But where can this merry band go? I doubt to Isheteribinth and the three seas is to far, so the great ordeal would seem the only option.
The world holds no terrors for me, I stand naked as the falling sword, I am the Terror.

profgrape

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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2016, 10:39:10 pm »
@Ciogli, I think Koringhus was the survivor because of his closeness to the Absolute. 

This is assuming that with this closeness comes martial proficiency -- and I think the short description we get of him establishes his badassitude.  But it also might be that as the closest, he was the most valued among the Dunyain and as a result, they effectively gave their lives for his.

As for their next destination, it's anybody's guess.  Ishteribinth is closest.  But given Cleric's revelation that they've gone over to the Consult, it seems like they'd avoid going that way. 

The Ordeal makes more sense.  Akka and Mim want to stop Kellhus and it stands to reason that Koringhus or the kid would want to meet up with the only other living Dunyain.  That being said, the Ordeal is *really* far away -- on Spiral Horizon's map, it's at least 1000 miles.  So either they 1) dragoon a Nonmen chariot that's stashed in the Thousand Thousand Halls or 2) try for a crossing at the Leash so they can meet up with the Ordeal closer to Golgatterath.

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« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2016, 11:05:04 pm »
I'm a little shocked at how startlingly accurate some of the forum's predictions have been. The axolotl tanks coming true were a bit of a shocker. I have to disagree with MSJ though - as someone who has experienced it myself in my writing, I think it's difficult to avoid referencing the works that inspire you in your own creations. I mean, they form and shape you in so many ways. I doubt it would have disappointed you if it hadn't been the subject of much scrutiny on this forum, and pried apart as a potential homage to Herbert and to Dune over the years of questioning what's up with the Dunyain women. Besides, there's a thread on this forum that analyzes all the references Bakker has woven into the Second Apocalypse series, and it's quite a tapestry.

I'm getting a lot of Yatwer vibes (describing her belly as a sickle?) from Mimara. I think the Judging Eye will be the crux of the metaphysical conflict to come - clearly it's an interest for the Consult, Kellhus and the Hundred.

I have to say though, I've seen a detail mentioned before that is becoming more and more salient to me: if there are so many Sranc in the North, so many that between the Dunyain, the scalpers, the Great Ordeal, there's still an incomprehensibly vast amount of them... By all rights the Sranc should have eradicated mankind a long, long time ago. If there's an entire subspecies of them dedicated to leading their roving bands, if the Erratics under the Consult have mustered a great many of them as an army, then even despite the No-God's absence I just can't think of why they've taken so long to reduce the population to 144k. The Consult have had this one in the bag for the last couple of centuries at least, why on Earwa have they been waiting for mankind to muster its forces and cut their way into Mordor?