[Cynical Cat]

It's difficult to say, because Scott is careful to not allow to see Kellhus's plans when he writes from Kellhus's point of view.  We do know such emotions are not beyond Kellhus and can influence his actions because that's exactly what happened when he did not dispose of Cnauir in The Prince of Nothing even though that was the logical action.

[The Sharmat]

Yeah. Rare moment of pity there. His emotional range is peculiar and tremendously stunted. But it's still there.

[MisterGuyMan]

I really have no idea what the hell is going on at this point, but I've gotta ask the Zaudunyani here: What does saving the world/humanity even mean?

As far as I can see the Consult has the only real plan.

To me, saving the world just means his plan and vision is more preferable to humanity than the Consult's plan of killing everyone and resurrecting the No-God.  So even if humanity is mauled, the race is still saved from the extinction that would have happened otherwise.

I believe that this might not even be Kellhus' main goal.  His ultimate goal is to be a self moving soul and as a side effect, humanity will be saved.  I'm starting to think this is one long setup for a bootstrap paradox.  Kellhus will eventually reach a point where he can reach back into the past and condition his own ground.  This plan of action just happens to neutralize the Gods and the Consult.  Working backwards I figure that the design of Kellhus as a character is to be the savior of mankind but to fill that role with such obvious immorality that the reader would barely be able to recognize even this obvious fantasy trope.   I love how Bakker twists tropes like that.

[Titan]

Yea, I wouldn't even say that Earwa has what we call "heaven". There is a quote at the beginning of a chapter, "I've heard the screams of hell and the sighs in heaven, trust me brother when I say there is nary a difference.". Paraphrasing obviously.

Interesting... This reminds me of Peter Hamilton's "The Night's Dawn" trilogy? Have any of you read it? A sci-fi series where the plot deals with the discovery that after death human souls are trapped in another dimension, where they are suffering endless torture, and that they have found a way back into our universe and possessing bodies, and they try to desperately find ways to cut themselves off from returning to that "hell". It is not Hamilton's best work, but I just realized that this part is very similar.

[The Sharmat]

I'd rather face oblivion under the No-God than the Eärwan afterlife to be honest.

Titan: I thought only some human souls ended up in that horrible nowhere place?

[Cynical Cat]

I'd rather face oblivion under the No-God than the Eärwan afterlife to be honest.

The Earwan deal suuuuuuuuuucks.  Everyone gets a limited number of years of mix pain and pleasure, possibly with a lot more pain than pleasure, and then a very large percentage gets torture for eternity.  Compared to that, nonexistence because of a successful genocide isn't such a bad deal.  It's still horrible, but its not being tortured in unimaginably horrific ways until the end of time.

[Titan]

Titan: I thought only some human souls ended up in that horrible nowhere place?

If I recall correctly all souls did go there briefly, but the majority of them were unable to ... move on? But my memory is foggy. And I didn't really care for the ending of the series. 

[Titan]

I'd rather face oblivion under the No-God than the Eärwan afterlife to be honest.

The Earwan deal suuuuuuuuuucks.  Everyone gets a limited number of years of mix pain and pleasure, possibly with a lot more pain than pleasure, and then a very large percentage gets torture for eternity.  Compared to that, nonexistence because of a successful genocide isn't such a bad deal.  It's still horrible, but its not being tortured in unimaginably horrific ways until the end of time.

Is it eternal, though? There seems to be an element of reincarnation in Earwa. Souls seem to be recycled into newborns (either whole or rebuilt from fragments), and it was this soul in-flow that the No-God prevent with the womb-plague.

[The Sharmat]

Since there's no time in the Outside from your subjective view it's always eternal even if it looks like a short blip to anyone "inside".

[Monkhound]

Is it eternal, though? There seems to be an element of reincarnation in Earwa. Souls seem to be recycled into newborns (either whole or rebuilt from fragments), and it was this soul in-flow that the No-God prevent with the womb-plague.

It could be that the quest of recovering a whole soul were the Dunyain definition of a self-moving soul, which could explain their 2000-year breeding program. Incidentally the word Holy comes from the Old English word Hálig, which meant Whole.
But on the other hand, what references do we have for reincarnation? I remember Cleric somehow remembering Mimara in WLW if that counts, but apart from that? The description of the Outside seems more like a demonic gore-fest than something where souls escape from in a shattered form to give life: Even in Eärwa, thousands of babies must be born on a daily basis.

Since there's no time in the Outside from your subjective view it's always eternal even if it looks like a short blip to anyone "inside".

This seems fairly reasonable to assume, although outsiders seem to perceive the passage of time all the same. In TGO p.44-46 one of them mentions Kellhus having been in the Outside before (the Head on a Pole passage). Of course this could be a reincarnation-thing, but that remains to be seen. I'm curious as hell about the explanation 

[Cynical Cat]

Is it eternal, though? There seems to be an element of reincarnation in Earwa. Souls seem to be recycled into newborns (either whole or rebuilt from fragments), and it was this soul in-flow that the No-God prevent with the womb-plague.

Why do you believe that?  I don't recall any source that supports that interpretation?  I would be grateful if you would explain why you believe this is so.

[The Sharmat]

Sarl's mad ramblings and at least one line from the Captain suggest that sometimes (though apparently quite rarely) souls come back from the Outside instead of staying there. This maybe what happened with little Sammi. Also, the former King of Cil-Aujas seems to have coalesced into something resembling a Ciphrang while in the Outside. So it's possible the fate of a soul isn't entirely final in all cases.

[Titan]

Is it eternal, though? There seems to be an element of reincarnation in Earwa. Souls seem to be recycled into newborns (either whole or rebuilt from fragments), and it was this soul in-flow that the No-God prevent with the womb-plague.

Why do you believe that?  I don't recall any source that supports that interpretation?  I would be grateful if you would explain why you believe this is so.

The Sharmat has already tackled the first part, do you need a source for the No-God stopping souls from attaching to children in wombs? I guess I don't have a direct source, but that seemed to be pretty explicit to me - or maybe I jumped to a conclusion here. But the Consult is working on shutting out the outside, and with souls moving back and forth from the Outside, it seems to me that the womb plague was an indication of a partial success.

[Cynical Cat]

My interpretation of Sarl's comment was that Ironsoul had a near death experience but instead of the tunnel and bright light, saw hell.  There's no denying that No-God prevents the birth of new life with souls, but how these souls come to be is another question entirely.  Reincarnation is a potential mechanism for it working, but it isn't the only one.  The gods harvesting the souls of men and damnation being a very real thing suggests that reincarnation isn't what is going on.  Nor does the fact that identity is retained for damned beings like the Wight King of the Mountain support reincarnation.  It doesn't rule it out either, but how does this proposed reincarnation cycle reconcile the existence of heavens and hells (however little distance their may be between the two) and why settle upon it as the source of new souls entering the world?  The Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, which Scott has mined heavily in setting up this world, does have new souls combing into the world without reincarnation.

[MSJ]

My interpretation of Sarl's comment was that Ironsoul had a near death experience but instead of the tunnel and bright light, saw hell.  There's no denying that No-God prevents the birth of new life with souls, but how these souls come to be is another question entirely.  Reincarnation is a potential mechanism for it working, but it isn't the only one.  The gods harvesting the souls of men and damnation being a very real thing suggests that reincarnation isn't what is going on.  Nor does the fact that identity is retained for damned beings like the Wight King of the Mountain support reincarnation.  It doesn't rule it out either, but how does this proposed reincarnation cycle reconcile the existence of heavens and hells (however little distance their may be between the two) and why settle upon it as the source of new souls entering the world?  The Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, which Scott has mined heavily in setting up this world, does have new souls combing into the world without reincarnation.

Well, I suspect what is up with The Captain is the same as Cnaüir. We learn that some souls that are so evil begin the transition to a Ciphrang while still alive. And, I assume that is what was going on with Ironsoul. Never really saw hell, he is just becoming a part of it, or was.