Apologies from the start, haven’t read this forum or posted in a few years. Just found out a month ago TGO was out and finished reading it … which brought me here. I forget quite a few important details like why Moenghus left Ishual and how the Thousand Fold Thought was learned by Kellus – his father shared it or he discovered on his own? Guess I’ll have to reread the books – one of the benefits of having a weak memory, art is a new experience every time you see it 
Well, you're a bit late to the release party, but hey, better late than never. Any interest in Zaudunyanicon 2017?
Yeah from the looks of it, you absolutely do need to do a re-read. With TUC on the horizon, you'll want to primed and ready.
If you haven't done a full re-read of the series yet - man, you're in for a treat. Its far better the 2nd time.
I read this whole thread all at once, not organically as people posted, so I may have missed some nuance to the discussion. I’m going to address several points across threads on this post for efficiency. I haven’t read everything, so apologies for redundancy of covering toiled ground.
I think that's a perception problem that we have. People seem to want to read everything before they start, and so they create their own entrance barrier. Don't bother, most of us will have forgotten what was discussed previously any way.
That said, me thinks the measuring of millimeters to discover what Kellus’s true intention/direction may be misguided ( that or I’m simply not smart enough to see a massive hidden meaning beyond the thousands of supposed clues to the real game being played ).
But the Devil is in the details! You might be right though. Its easy to get bogged down in the minute. It probably wont be until TUC and beyond that it becomes clear which details were important and which were tangential to the discussion.
Bakker is a demon, for sure, nothing he’s writing is just to describe the “beautiful” landscape. But a lot of it is to build intrigue, or at least so I think since I read these books at the edge of my seat excitedly crying aloud, “dude, no way!”, frequently.
If TGO is any hint, TUC will be filled with those moments.
Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I look at this simplistically. Kellus was raised with the Logos to achieve a purely self-moving soul ( I think this is Bakker exploring "finding the bottom of the bag" as he addresses in another of his books … whereas in Neuropath that exploration was purely scientific, what would it be like for a sect of humans devoted to accomplishing the same thing via conscious exploration ).
It certainly does seem like all of Bakker's works are interconnected in some way. He explores similar thoughts and themes, even through his short stories. I can't say I know what he's driving at, but there appears to be something there, just out of reach.
He’s sent away from the Dunyain to assassinate his father ( bit lost on the Survivor claiming no awareness of sorcery when Moënghus communicates to the Dunyain to send his son – sorcery – maybe they hushed that up or something ).
To clarify, we are told in the beginning of TDTCB that everyone who recieved the dreams was basically killed - sent to the TTT to die in solitude so as to not pollute the others. It stands to reason then that only Kellhus and those polluted by the dreams knew about the incident. In addition, remember that Kellhus himself disregarded the existance, or even the possability, of sorcery until he was nearly killed by that Nonman in the woods. For all their intellect, the Dunyain can be pretty stupid, especially when confronted with something new.
He learns of the world and of sorcery. For some reason, he’s taken to it – or maybe simply following his directive, not allowing “the world” to deter him. His son, the Survivor, didn’t take to it well at all, quickly dismissing 2,000 years of Dunyain effort and concludes the Absolute is zero, etc. The Survivor does enjoy the benefit of getting an upshot on the status of his soul with The Eye and when he “turns green” he’s like, fuck it, I’m good to join the absolute/god and commits suicide. I detect a mild slap at those of us who believe in religious salvation for if we’re confident we’re saved, no point on risking damnation – if you really are “saved”, best thing that could happen to you is a quick death. I digress …
Heh, never thought of it like that. Nice find
that's the kind of dark nod I'd expect from Bakker.
In short, I think Kellus set out to do what he was told – found out his father was powerful as all get out, potentially with sorcery ( unaware at first the water didn’t take for his pop, not one of the few ) and determined he needed massive power ( an army ) to overwhelm his father and kill him as directed. In the process/journey, he discovers ( again, don’t remember how ) the Thousand Fold Thought for which I took was the threading of the needle to save humanity from extinction. All that we’re seeing in the books is that path.
Agreed - I'm with you up to about here.
He’s taken up the task to save humanity. Because even though we’re children in his eyes he still feels connected and responsible to protect us like a parent? Because he’s a mad fucker who thought it would be fun to drive an army through hell to defeat an unbeatable enemy to show the planet whose boss? Don’t know for sure,
Eh, I'm not so sure. I don't see Kellhus as the altruistic type. To me, best case scenario, Kellhus is looking to usurp the Consult and have total dominion over Earwa. I don't subscribe to the "Kellhus is our lord and savior" rhetoric.
but I don’t identify with evidence brought up in this forum that he’s in cahoots with The Consult – this would be a massive rouse if that’s the case with the smell of cheap writing we see in television shows – to shock for shock’s sake, to surprise by drumming up something completely different with no clue to the viewer what’s coming. Pretty much anyone can do that … create a love story only to see the happy couple who traveled misunderstanding and tragedy together reaching a beautiful connection to only to be hacked up by a madman with a chainsaw in the end. It’s one thing to spin a yarn, quite another to fuck your readers over for the fun of it.
I'd the thoroughly disappointed if we are blind-sided. Everything so far has been meticulously foreshadowed, whether or not we the readers realized it beforehand or after-the-fact. For what its worth, I don't think he's for the Consult either.
Something I think that Bakker is adamantly against is, as you say, "shock for shock's sake". There always seem to be a point, though I think he oftens obscures it a bit much and maybe whatever it was he was trying to say doesn't get made clear.
I think it's simpler - he sees an "end" and accepts his species evolutionary programming that the show should go on; maybe enjoying some of the hooks ( read: love ) that other humans indulge.
That's a pretty interesting take on things, and I'm not sure I've seen anyone put it quite like that. Bravo - you should post more
That all said, I do see Bakker’s writing teaching us something about the cost of us readers for “loving” or even rooting for Kellus – that loving those we see “higher” than ourselves is risking our own lives as well as our identity/humanity – simply, be careful dear reader in idolizing others. The lesson is to avoid being played and manipulated and for those “leaders” and “heroes” we love, we’re allowing them to use us – often not in our best interests. As long as Kellus is “working” for humanity, cool – if he deviates or violates that trajectory, don’t hesitate to kill him. I think that’s the lesson Kellus is giving Proyas, that his love of Kellus is holding him back, watering his ability to command the GO in Kellus’ absence. The rape was harsh, but maybe felt he had to do the non-man thing of marrying tragedy to an event so it will hit home with Proyas. Or maybe as metaphor as he breaks Proyas’ conditioning, “see what can happen when you put all your chips on one person” and/or just because I’m saving your hind sides from the furnace, doesn’t mean you should trust me.
You've hit the nail on the head there - at least for me. The books demand that the reader thinks. Demands that you challenge your assumptions, and look inwardly and then externally for the Kellhus' around us. For our own Darkness, and our own enigmatic hero figures. A cautionary tale of the dangers of blind trust - both in our own truths and assumptions, and in those that our idols thrust upon us.
Don’t like guessing the end of stories, I enjoy being surprised. But appears guessing is what we do here in this forum
Then don't. The last thing we need is people stepping in line around here. That's not what this is about - rules and decorum. Though I do advocate for participation, otherwise this place gets echo-y.
– so I’m going to take a stab at it. Kellus is having us ( humanity ) take out the Consult to strengthen us to overcome an even worse threat in the future. He sees us as too weak, too immature to endure or flourish. Feuding between each other has not strengthened us enough fend off extinction. An alien showed up to take us out 2,000 years ago and nearly succeeded. They’re still around, but haven’t struck again ( unknown, but I think The Consult was watching us self-destruct in lieu of them taking the risk of full frontal assault ). Seems like a good idea to take them out before the No-god shows up again. But more, it may well toughen us up and evolve. Remember, he sees “beyond” the thousand thoughts – maybe to a worse future than even The Consult poses. The madness arises from the mad effort it’s taken him to vet out so many possibilities, stressing the probability trance. The Consult is not the only threat to humanity – there’s seismic and cosmic events that can do us in. And with nuclear power, we become our own threat as well. Remember, Bakker is a fan of Herbert, and this walk-through hell to empower is straight Herbert philosophy.
I like it. I'm glad you took the time to think that through and post it. Like I said above, I think you have a unique take on things (well, you and all the other silent masses). That'll give me something to chew on for awhile.
