[Dunkelheit]

Kayûtas: I have to mostly agree with Jackehehe here...I thought he was a boring character for the first three books of this series. Nothing distinctive about him (unlike his siblings), he was basically a more human Kellhus, "Kellhus Lite", if you will.
While I agree he did have a role as a Kellhus stand-in to Sorweel and later Proyas, and was the tiniest bit more interesting to me by the end, I ultimately came away from the series with (almost) the same impression I had at the beginning. I guess that can be more of a subjective thing, though, as some people out there might like him as a character?

(From a maxed out thread)

I actually found him to be the most terrifying character in the books, and he adds a lot to the Proyas/Great Ordeals storyline. What makes that storyline interesting is how alone Proyas are and the enormous struggle of leading an army that also slowly goes insane while struggling to remain sane himself. I thought it was a huge turning point Kayûtas just murdered one of the lords, seemingly surprising even himself. His reaction also seemed to show that it wasn't a calculated decision and he that had gone crazy just like everybody else, leaving Proyas as the only semi-sane person in the Great Ordeal. Its a huge difference between having this superhuman on your team and having him as another lunatic you need to control, which seems like an impossible task given what Dunyain are capable of. As the story progresses he becomes this devil on Proyas shoulder, using his intellect to justify his insanity and actually making himself and others believe they doing the right thing. I think this is a far more horrifying portrayal of what an insane Dunyain could be than Inrilatas. Someone who not just heaps damnation upon himself but corrupts everyone with his superhuman powers of persuasion.

[Dunkelheit]

Also, the scene when Serwa comes back is just... well written. Of course most of how we see Kayûtas could be attributed the perspective we see him from. You could make an argument for him being far more measured and calculating than he appears to be. Personally I think how he is described to have blood around his groin when he meets his sister goes against that conclusion.

[H]

Also, the scene when Serwa comes back is just... well written. Of course most of how we see Kayûtas could be attributed the perspective we see him from. You could make an argument for him being far more measured and calculating than he appears to be. Personally I think how he is described to have blood around his groin when he meets his sister goes against that conclusion.

Perhaps then, his role is more to illustrate that even a Dûnyain can be broken by the tribulations of the Ordeal?

Also, welcome to the forum, great first post.

[Dunkelheit]

Perhaps then, his role is more to illustrate that even a Dûnyain can be broken by the tribulations of the Ordeal?

Also, welcome to the forum, great first post.

Thanks! Maybe. Kellhus gets broken on the circumfix after all. And the Survivor goes mad too, so the Dunyain are not unbreakable. I see Kayûtas as more warped than broken though. Perhaps it's to add to Mimaras/the Gods view that the Dunyains mission is a fools errand and the shortest path is inherently wrong. One of the most haunting scenes for me is when Proyas goes to murder the king of the Scalded and the king says something along the lines of "We walk the shortest path together". Indicating that he understands why Proyas is doing it and agrees.

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

I actually found him to be the most terrifying character in the books, and he adds a lot to the Proyas/Great Ordeals storyline. What makes that storyline interesting is how alone Proyas are and the enormous struggle of leading an army that also slowly goes insane while struggling to remain sane himself. I thought it was a huge turning point Kayûtas just murdered one of the lords, seemingly surprising even himself. His reaction also seemed to show that it wasn't a calculated decision and he that had gone crazy just like everybody else, leaving Proyas as the only semi-sane person in the Great Ordeal. Its a huge difference between having this superhuman on your team and having him as another lunatic you need to control, which seems like an impossible task given what Dunyain are capable of. As the story progresses he becomes this devil on Proyas shoulder, using his intellect to justify his insanity and actually making himself and others believe they doing the right thing. I think this is a far more horrifying portrayal of what an insane Dunyain could be than Inrilatas. Someone who not just heaps damnation upon himself but corrupts everyone with his superhuman powers of persuasion.

Well, the quote you used at the beginning was mine so you might know how I feel already.

Kayûtas succumbing to the effects of Sranc meat was one of the things that made him a bit more interesting in my eyes, actually. While personally I still don't find him that interesting as a character, I can see where you're coming from with his influence on Proyas - the thing is, Kayûtas as the manipulator was cut short by Kellhus' return. If it had gone on, maybe I would agree more, but I just can't see him as being that terrifying.
And there were definitely some underlying emotions there, with him trying to stop Serwa to go back and fight after she'd been hit with the blast. This book did flesh out his character a bit more than previous ones, but it was just not enough for me. Maybe I'll change my opinion after a reread, maybe not, this is one of those cases where your mileage may vary.

[Madness]

I actually found him to be the most terrifying character in the books, and he adds a lot to the Proyas/Great Ordeals storyline. What makes that storyline interesting is how alone Proyas are and the enormous struggle of leading an army that also slowly goes insane while struggling to remain sane himself. I thought it was a huge turning point Kayûtas just murdered one of the lords, seemingly surprising even himself.

I really enjoyed this scene as well as the aforementioned bit about him appearing before Proyas, Sorweel, and Serwa with blood around his groin.

I enjoyed his character and I suspect - perhaps among the minority - that Serwa and Kayutas survive.

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

I really enjoyed this scene as well as the aforementioned bit about him appearing before Proyas, Sorweel, and Serwa with blood around his groin.

I enjoyed his character and I suspect - perhaps among the minority - that Serwa and Kayutas survive.

I agree with half of that - it's plausible that Kayûtas survived if Serwa (or Saccarees) managed to teleport away with him in time. It would be nice to have him around for the next series, a chance to see more character development and how he would cope with being the last (part-)Dûnyain remaining (aside from the Boy). I'm not counting Serwa because I don't think she survived - even if she did manage to teleport away with Kayûtas, she was so severely wounded already that the effort would have killed her. I might end up being surprised, though!

[profgrape]

I really enjoyed this scene as well as the aforementioned bit about him appearing before Proyas, Sorweel, and Serwa with blood around his groin.

I enjoyed his character and I suspect - perhaps among the minority - that Serwa and Kayutas survive.

I agree with half of that - it's plausible that Kayûtas survived if Serwa (or Saccarees) managed to teleport away with him in time. It would be nice to have him around for the next series, a chance to see more character development and how he would cope with being the last (part-)Dûnyain remaining (aside from the Boy). I'm not counting Serwa because I don't think she survived - even if she did manage to teleport away with Kayûtas, she was so severely wounded already that the effort would have killed her. I might end up being surprised, though!

I wouldn't count her out.  At the end of TGO, she wields sorcery despite while wearing a Nonmen version of the Agonic Collar.  Granted that doesn't seem to cause physical wounds.  But it still suggests she can more or less ignore extreme pain.

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

I wouldn't count her out.  At the end of TGO, she wields sorcery despite while wearing a Nonmen version of the Agonic Collar.  Granted that doesn't seem to cause physical wounds.  But it still suggests she can more or less ignore extreme pain.

I would actually like her to survive, it's just that I have a hard time imagining how she could. Yes, I agree she has been shown to be very powerful and very resilient, but she can still die if her wounds are severe enough even if she can handle extreme pain. She already fought Skuthula after taking damage, then she lost part of her arm to the Chorae and by the end she was in a bad enough state that Kayûtas had to carry her. I'm not too hopeful.

[themerchant]

In one of Pryas POV he notices that Kayûtas knew about Kellhus plan to betray him for his actions with the ordeal and serwe didn't.

Once i read that it he becomes more of a goad for Proyas to act the way he did. As it conforms to the plan.

[Madness]

In one of Pryas POV he notices that Kayûtas knew about Kellhus plan to betray him for his actions with the ordeal and serwe didn't.

Once i read that it he becomes more of a goad for Proyas to act the way he did. As it conforms to the plan.

Probably going to read this scene in my next sit-down with the canon artifact. It reminded me so much of Cnaiur's moment in the beginning of TTT watching from the inside/outside of the circuit of Inrithi Zaudunyani belief (paraphasing badly).

[Dunkelheit]

In one of Pryas POV he notices that Kayûtas knew about Kellhus plan to betray him for his actions with the ordeal and serwe didn't.
Once i read that it he becomes more of a goad for Proyas to act the way he did. As it conforms to the plan.

I thought so too, I am mostly referring to how Kayûtas appear from Proyas perspective not necessarily how he actually is. But I also think Kellhus plan was such that it would succeed regardless of whether Kayûtas would lose his mind or not. So I still think it up for interpretation whether or not he did.

[Redeagl]

My personal interpretation is that Kayutas did succumb to the Meat. Also, I am pretty sure that Serwa is finished but I am 50/50 on Kayûtas. It would be VERY interesting seeing him in TNG if he did survive.

[Bolivar]

After Cnauir coming back in TGO, I have to think both Serwa and Kayutas are alive since they weren't killed on screen. She's in pretty bad shape no doubt but people in this series have lingered after some pretty horrible things. It might take some terrible sacrifice but I think she'll be in the third series.

I liked Kayutas, his storyline was fine given the role he plays in the narrative.

[Woden]

Maybe Serwa has an important role as a hunger in the Outside.

For Kayutas maybe he didn't succumb to the meat and he just pretended to have succumbed, following orders from Kellhus.