Why would the Inchoroi fear damnation?

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« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2020, 08:56:54 pm »
It crosses my mind that the Ark is simply a vessel, controlled by an advanced AI, which requires a guidance system/OS (Sarcophagus with an Insertant), and every Inchoroi etc. is actually a biomech machine, soulless from the beginning. The Progenitors deceived the Inchoroi with the Inverse Fire as a goad to carry out their orders, by showing the truth of damnation - however this damnation was only applicable to the Progenitors, NOT the Inchoroi, that are like upgraded Sranc and subject to the NG themselves upon Initiation/Resumption.

I think this is very likely succinct, stuslayer :). Though, Somnambulist has always made me wonder if Shauriatas has somehow managed to co-opt "the AI" and the Mutilated with some soultech sorcery combo.
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« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2020, 01:36:29 pm »
Hmm, I don't know that I subscribe to that.  I think Inchoroi really are damned.  I think they really are souled.  Because what gives the soul is, in a sense, language and self-consciousness.  Sranc, on the other hand, or bashrags and the like, are conscious in a sense, have language, but they do not have the ability, for whatever reason to grasp the Dasein of spirit, that is, to Be in a way to which the question of Being has meaning.  In other words, Sranc have no ability (desire?) to question the Meaning of Being.  Therefor no soul.

This is always why some "unsouled" things can gain a soul.  If it gains some sort of language by which to form the question and can identify itself, as a self, then it can have a soul, so it can be damned.  Because at that point, it can question the nature of Being, it can ask and interrogate sorts of Is/Ought distinctions, it can modify it's behavior and isn't just what Bakker might call "a meat machine."  Therefor it bears something like what we'd call Identity, it bears something like what we would call Responsibility.  That is the Dasein of Spirit, sort of, the Being of a Soul.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2020, 01:45:57 pm »
It crosses my mind that the Ark is simply a vessel, controlled by an advanced AI, which requires a guidance system/OS (Sarcophagus with an Insertant), and every Inchoroi etc. is actually a biomech machine, soulless from the beginning. The Progenitors deceived the Inchoroi with the Inverse Fire as a goad to carry out their orders, by showing the truth of damnation - however this damnation was only applicable to the Progenitors, NOT the Inchoroi, that are like upgraded Sranc and subject to the NG themselves upon Initiation/Resumption.

Under this scenario the 'truth' of damnation is not the Inchies' truth, but they are driven to act upon it. There is no soul to damn. Perhaps this is where Kellhus' mistake originates.

The biggest issue with this idea, to me, is that the Inchoroi can use magic in Earwa. As far as we know, you must have a soul to use magic. Now, it could very well be that the vast majority of the Inchoroi didn't have souls. Recalling that the Onta graft had an extreme culling affect, we might assume that all those who died simply didn't have souls and so the procedure killed them off.

There are relatively few Skin-spies compared to the original number of Inchoroi. Even is it was a 1/1000, or 1/1,000,000 chance, its possible that a few hundred, or a few dozen, Inchoroi have souls.

But, unfortunately, by the time we enter the story, its a pretty moot point... Since all (both) living Inchoroi survived the Onta graft, we must assume they have souls, and therefore the IF is probably legit for them.
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« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2020, 02:03:58 pm »
Well, you need a soul to grasp the onta, but just having a soul doesn't guarantee that you can grasp the onta.  Basically all Nonmen and humans, presumably, have souls, yet only how many are actually the Few?

I don't think the fact that the Onta Graft killed many of them really proves much, if anything, with respect to the status of their souls.
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« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2020, 11:04:24 pm »
The "soul" was described by some Dunyain or other as "the confluence", a part of / activity in the brain. The Inchoroi who survived the latest Graft have human skulls inside of their mouths. That is what I understood to be the reason they are able to grasp the onta and sing sorcery. Skulls (Edit: and BRAINS lol, can't believe I forgot to include originally!) of former Few or cloned/modelled after them.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 11:08:52 pm by Cyx »

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« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2020, 12:43:22 pm »
The "soul" was described by some Dunyain or other as "the confluence", a part of / activity in the brain. The Inchoroi who survived the latest Graft have human skulls inside of their mouths. That is what I understood to be the reason they are able to grasp the onta and sing sorcery. Skulls (Edit: and BRAINS lol, can't believe I forgot to include originally!) of former Few or cloned/modelled after them.

Well, we don't have actual dates, but we know that the Inchoroi "birthed mouths" and could speak Ihrimsû during/after the First Watch.  Because what ends the First Watch is the Inchoroi sending an envoy to Viri, which could speak to Nin’janjin.

We only know of the Grafting that let the Inchoroi grasp the Onta extra-textually.  But, from what Bakker said of it, the process lead to the death of many, maybe even most, of the Inchoroi left.  Again, we don't have exact dates, but the Inchoroi didn't seem able to use sorcery themselves during the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars, rather, after Pir Pahal, they used the Nonmen Aporetics to make the Chorae.

I think it is only post-war, but pre-Apocalypse, that the Inchoroi actually tried to use sorcery themselves.  One, just for the power, but two, because they likely realized that relying on the ever-increasingly erratic Nonmen probably wasn't ideal.

Also, keep in mind that having a soul is a necessary condition for being one of the Few, but not a sufficient condition to be of the Few.  You need a soul, plus the ability (seemingly inborn) to grasp the Onta.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 12:44:57 pm by H »
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2020, 06:13:40 pm »
IIRC - wasnt there a souled skin spy or am i totally making that up? Or was it a skin spy who was part of the mandate?

Anyway, i think the inchies must have souls otherwise this is like 8-10000 years of bullshit and totally pointless. Then again that might make RSB giggle to do that to the readers. Who knows?

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« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2020, 08:06:29 pm »
I have other thoughts I want to get to in this thread (but I need time and space) and I'm actually not sure that we can do more than correlate souls to the ability to exercise sorcery *but* I can see only those who survived the onta-grasping graft (six Inchoroi total) being the only ensoulled of the Inchoroi-Sranc.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2020, 10:11:54 pm »
From a narative perspective it makes sense to me, which is why I mentioned. Kind of a poetic justice thing - Inchoroi giving endless lives to nonmen but killing all the women, nonmen's magic grafted giving inchoroi endless power but killing most of them.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 05:08:07 pm by Wilshire »
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« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2020, 12:51:39 pm »
IIRC - wasnt there a souled skin spy or am i totally making that up? Or was it a skin spy who was part of the mandate?

Anyway, i think the inchies must have souls otherwise this is like 8-10000 years of bullshit and totally pointless. Then again that might make RSB giggle to do that to the readers. Who knows?

Yes, there was, it is the one that replaces Simas.

Bakker even said, extratextuality that sometimes things just "gain" a soul sort of spontaneously.  Probably that skin-spy just happened to have the right combination of some strange mutation to be able to grasp the Onta and develop a soul at the same time.  One in a million, maybe even longer odds.  But odds are likely not the right way to talk about it.

I'd think the "soul" is really a particular manner of self-consciousness.  Sranc are conscious, but not self-conscious in a way that gives rise to what we would terms as soul.  And their brains aren't much"wired" in the Earwan sense, for much other than instict and impulse.

Interestingly enough, Sranc do have language though.  So, I think, in theory, Sranc could gain souls, if they really "tried."  But, realistically, a philosophical minded, self-conscious Sranc would likely be killed and eaten by the rest, right out of hand.

While we could be radical skeptics on Inchoroi souls, I don't think it makes too much sense for the Progenitors to go through all the trouble of making the Ark, making Inchoroi, setting up the Inverse Fire as a goad, only for it be a whole meta-trick, because they didn't actually give the Inchoroi any souls.  That just seems like a bad plan, since there could be a chance then that the Inchoroi realize they actually have no souls and just give up the Progenitor's mission.

From a narative perspective it amesk sense to me, which is why I mentioned. Kind of a poetic justice thing - Inchoroi giving endless lives to nonmen but killing all the women, nonmen's magic grafted giving inchoroi endless power but killing most of them.
There is a nice symmetry there.  Tekne "killed" the Nonmen, Sorcery "killed" the Inchoroi.  Not exactly, but in a sort of way.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2020, 11:51:51 am »
Other ensouled beings looked into the Inverse Fire and their experience was very similar to that of the Inchoroi. In fact, Kellhus was the only different one in this regard.

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« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2020, 03:36:26 pm »
Other ensouled beings looked into the Inverse Fire and their experience was very similar to that of the Inchoroi. In fact, Kellhus was the only different one in this regard.

True say. I need to write up on this - I do think (and I might be an outlier) that that one difference was due to Ajokellhus' possession (?) at the time.

EDIT: Accurate television portrayal. Convinced Murder-Bots to believe it mattered to them. Something something ;).
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 03:38:58 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2020, 04:16:20 pm »
True say. I need to write up on this - I do think (and I might be an outlier) that that one difference was due to Ajokellhus' possession (?) at the time.

Well, I would not discount the Ajokli-confluence, but also not discount the fact that he was (seemingly) the only person in Earwan history we know of to go visit the Outside, visit The Pit, visit Hell, and come back at least somewhat sane enough to go and do anything else but rave.  Part of that is just what he managed, I think, via the Head-on-a-Pole and part of that is the fact that part of Hell came back with him (Ajokli).
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2020, 05:16:11 pm »
Most, if not all, of those journeys are Ajokli-mediated, though, right? Even in Kellhus' (!!) ignorance.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2020, 01:23:22 pm »
Most, if not all, of those journeys are Ajokli-mediated, though, right? Even in Kellhus' (!!) ignorance.
Might go either way here, the books don't go into enough detail to be in any way certain.